Synthetic oil - roughly the same

[r0GuE]

Poor horse... dead all this time and I'm still beating it! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Thanks for the help getting the WIX # for my BX2200 oil filter. There are better than WIX perhaps, and there certainly are worse. I ordered 2. WIX is relatively easy for me to get around here...

Now for the oil. I've heard Rotella, Amsoil and Mobil 1 thrown into the arena. I suspect that Rotella will be the easiest to find since someone told me I could get it at Wal-Mart.

I certainly am open to spending more for something better, but I need to know why first. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif A few direct questions. These questions are based on the three oils mentioned above, but feel free to throw in another brand if you like.

1. Are all three of the synthetics mentioned above better than any/all dino oils?

2. Can those three oils be rated good, better, best?

3. Is there a rating (or ratings) that I absolutely MUST have for my BX2200?

Thanks for the info! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[DmansPadge]

About all I can tell you is that a good friend of mine used to work at a shop that builds high performance engines and had a dyno. BTW, we are talking about 400+ hp gas engines. A synthetic oil would give the engines about a 5-7 hp boost.

As for which ones are better... I don't know. I've heard great things about Mobil 1 and Rotella, but don't know much about Amsoil.

Ohhh yeah... I am a firm believer in WIX filters. I use them on all of my equipment. Back some time ago I saw some stats on major filter brands and WIX was right at the top and FRAM was dead last.

 

[SeymourBota]

you need gsxr1100 to chime in here- he is the oil guru!!

I have never used Rotella. I have used Mobil 1 and more recently Amsoil. Amsoil hits you with plenty of tests to show their product is superior, but, of course, that's what you would expect them to do. I will tell you that I am impressed with their entire line of lubricants. Their gear lube erased a notchiness in shifting I had in my summer car.
I am not an Amsoil dealer but I will testify that you cannot find a better, readily available line of lubricants.

 

[Dargo]

Nope, not all synthetic oil is the same. To avoid a war, just do some research based upon actual lab tests and decide for yourself. There are different groups of oils, based upon their performance in tests. It's up to you to decide what is "good enough". Personally, I think using the best oil available is rather cheap insurance to guard against mechanical failures. Others will disagree, but that is fine. As long as I am the one that would have to pay for the repair, whether it is a transmission, engine, or gear box, I want all the help I can get. Mr. Murphy always seems to follow me around if I let him. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[MrGreene]

That Hoosier commonsense is certainly showing in that post /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

MrGreene

Beer is the cornerstone of mankind

 

[gsxr1100]

Well I do thank SeymourBota as me being called a “guru” but I am far from it. Just a lot of time at work that I read about this stuff. I love working military jobs!

The 3-oils mentioned are good oils but it depends on what you want to do with them. What is important? Do you want a good “base” oil or additive package.

Next, is anything from a group 3 up can be called a synthetic here. I think Mobil is a 4 and Amsoil and Redline are a 4 and 5. That is the simple simple version. I do not want to bring in esters, POA, blah blah. So take that for what it is worth. Next I take the API rating and throw that out. That is a rating that is good but limits some wonderful things in oils. Like Zinc for one. And Calcium or Phosphorus are some others.

I can’t say that Amsoil is better then Redline or Mobil if you are easy on your oil. If you run these oils at very soon intervals you will see very little difference. If you run the engine hard you will like the higher numbers and TBN from Amsoil and Redline.These higher numbers are better for the engine in terms of wear oxidation etc.

Next is take the $$$$ and don’t every bring that into the equation yet. Good stuff is not cheap but you do not want to get ripped off either.

Based on some oil tests of Mobil, me, I, feel it needs improvement in some areas so I would not use it. So that leaves Redline or Amsoil. Then using these I would compare there oil tests. If both were with some small delta, which they are. I would take the lesser in price here.

If using Amosil I would just use there regular 15w-40 HDD&M oil. There 5w-30 looks better but look at the price and what you get for it. A tad more Calcium or Phosphorus? Not for the HUGE increase in price.

There are other oils like Rotella, Delo, Delvac but look at there oil tests and see how it looks to you. If you like less Moly, Calcium, Zinc, Phosphorus,etc, then that is your oil. Not saying they are bad, but I do not like dino oils. I did not buy a 2002 BX to put in 1950's technology..but that is me.

 

[BrettW]

GSXR,
Any thoughts on Rotella T Syntehtic 5W40? It's at Wal Mart for 12/ gal. I use it in my cars last change and it seems a lot better that the dino I was using. Based soley on the sound of the engine. It is rated CH4 also, so I may use it in my B7800 as well.
thanks for the info. brett w

 

[gsxr1100]

Rotella is a group 3 oil, a normal highly hydrocracked dyno oil. If that is your bag, then buy the oil for the $12.XX.

Is it a good oil for the money, sure but there are better oils out there. It also has approx 1.47% ash in oil. I do not like ash in my oil, but that is me. Also it does not pass the SL API code.

Rotella T Synthetic is primarily made from Shell's XHVI base oil (70%). That being stated it is basically the same as Castrol, Valvoline, “Synthetics”.

Shell PDF

 

[BrettW]

thanks, I'll consider a better oil , especailly for my tractor which I can't afford to replace for many years to come. While you are on this thread, know anything about New Holland 15W40? I was told at a Kubota dealership that it was very good oil and they sell it cheaper than the Kubota stuff. Still , non synthetic, thanks, bw

 

[GoodGuy]

gsxr....
apologize if this has been asked before....
what do you use in the lexus & what in the kubota ??
And the real question "why" ??

 

[gsxr1100]

Lexus is Amsoil 5w-40 and My Kubota has Amsoil 15w-40

I used Amsoil in the Lexus since it is in 2 to 3X longer then most people and it still comes out better when tested. I like doing other things then changing oil every 5K to 7K miles. There TBN is great and their additive package is one of the best out there. Mobil looks ok but there base stock and additive package are behind Amsoil’s. I would use Redline since Redline is right up there with Amsoil, but I get Amsoil for less money. My car oil is drained once per year.

The Buta (BX) gets there 15w40 HDD&M since I used it in my old Powerstroke diesel going almost 3X the intervals and the oil tests were great. High levels of TBN & ZDDP and low OXD, NOX, and soot. So my BX gets the same oil. So far after 60 hours the oil looks brand new. I will be testing oil in the spring. I would be surprised if it came out looking ok, since I expect wonderful results. Amsoil is not much, it is like $20 for a gallon when a gallon is more then you need. Also only done once per year.

There are good dino oils out there but there will not hold up well in longer applications and some have additive packages that leave more to be desired. Basically I want the best oil I can get. I do not want “new technology” with old dino oil in there.

 

[gsxr1100]

Taken from BITOG

GI- solvent refined petroleum base stock. It is common belief that no SL rated oil uses 100% GI basestock, but some of them do have some GI in them.

GII- hydrotreated petroleum base stock. More refined, with less gunk in it. More stable, and usually with a higher viscosity index. Chevron and pennzoil oils use nothing but this group in their oils. Common belief that all SL oils use this in a certain amount.

GIII- "hydrocracked" or severely hydrofinished base stock. Castrol won the right for oil blenders to call this group "synthetic". Most OTC synthetics are made from this base. I think they use the same process to make it as GII, but take it a step further.

G-IV PAO base stock. Chemically produced from ethelene gas. True synthetic oil, and primary basestock used in mobil, amsoil and most top tier synthetics. Much more stable and has higher VI index than GIII. Can handle more extreme temps.

G-V ester base stock. used in most synthetic oils for miscibility, and is primary base used in redline and a few others. Extreme natural detergency and cleaning ability. Strong attraction to metal. Can withstand more extreme temps than PAO.

 

[Boondox]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Nope, not all synthetic oil is the same. To avoid a war, just do some research based upon actual lab tests and decide for yourself. There are different groups of oils, based upon their performance in tests. It's up to you to decide what is "good enough". Personally, I think using the best oil available is rather cheap insurance to guard against mechanical failures. Others will disagree, but that is fine. As long as I am the one that would have to pay for the repair, whether it is a transmission, engine, or gear box, I want all the help I can get. Mr. Murphy always seems to follow me around if I let him. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif )</font>

So what do you use..? Pete

 

[Boondox]

Mike -- I always thought it was not oil breakdown but all the impurities and acids that contaminated the oil through normal use that dictated the frequency of changes...? That's why, living as I do in the sticks and driving a third of the time on dirt roads, I never went for the extended interval claims.

Your thoughts? Pete

 

[gsxr1100]

The oil will break down in the end. All the additives are integral to one another. If your TBN is going down, something has to give. So your additive package is working but being depleted at the same time. So with a lower TBN, your OXD and Nox will go up. Too high of these and you get sludge issues

The viscosity might go up or down, it depends on the VI. As noted your ZDDP will get depleted all over time. So really the “base oil” is fine but your additive package is getting used up. Once it gets used up you oil will turn acidic and cause slugging etc. The only thing you can do is slow the process. It will wear out overtime, maybe not today or next month, but it will. Again, you are using a good oil filter to slow the process. More junk in oil filter means less work for oil; hence, longer oil duration. If your oil filter is poor in quality, your oil needs to work harder to control wear. BUT on the flip side the additives are slowly dying.

The dirt roads will not do anything to the oil except at Si to it (dirt). If you use a quality air filter, it does not matter on road conditions.

 

[Dargo]

Well, I'm actually not sold on one particular brand. I have Red Line in a couple of my vehicles and Amsoil in a few others. Just to keep it interesting, I have Mobil 1 in a Durango I have. I have actually sprung for two oil tests in the past couple of years. For me, an extended drain interval is 5000 to 7000 miles. After working on several engines and having the advantage of having hundreds of thousands of actuarial statistics available to me, one of the most important features of an oil is it's shear strength. I've seen several engine failures where there was no sludge in the engine at all, but there was extreme wear on the highest pressure points, such as the bottom of a rod where it attaches to the crank.

A lot of people claim that it doesn't matter what oil you use if you change every 3000 miles. To me, the facts just don't support that theory. Although a lot of oil is packaged under different names from the same producer, there is a difference in oils. In a '62 Chevy I have with a 502ci 600 hp big block in, I use a "racing" oil that has one of the highest shear strengths but basiclly no detergent in the oil. It would be rare for me to run 1500 miles without changing oil in it. I don't need the high detergent in it. In a diesel, you will get more soot, fuel, and other contaminants in the oil (especially if you have the engine cranked up and are over-fueling it) so detergent addatives are important there.

So, I am particular about what oil I use even within a specific brand. I differ with GSXR in that I will never go for the really long drain intervals. Besides my theory on contaminants, I flat out just don't like working on "dirty" engines. No matter what oil you use, with extended drain intervals the internal engine parts all look and feel dirty to me, (yes, I've worked on them and felt them with my own grubby fingers) and the oil is always coal black. That is besides the belief I have that even if you have done an oil test on your vehicle and decide that you only have to change it once a year, how do you know that during any given year something in your engine hasn't changed and your oil has become less than acceptable? Just a thought.

The extended drain people will say that I'm throwing out good oil and wasting money. If it is still good, they are welcome to it. I don't really drink but maybe one or two drinks a month and don't smoke, so I figure that I could be wasting my money on worse things. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Besides, the older I get, the less I want to work on things.

 

[gsxr1100]

If you get fuel in oil, you have more problems to worry about then oil. You should not get over 1% fuel in oil. I am not perticular to any oil. Just show me a better oil then what I use now and a better price and will switch.

Extended drain is 5K to 7K???? Dargo, come on man. That is not extended but NORMAL in your manual unless towing, maybe goes to 5K. That is not extended at all! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Also if you worried about shear strength you would not be using Mobil. Your oil feels dirty, wow! I can’t tell anything that close, so I have it analyzed on a computer.

My oil has 8K miles and it is clear as the day it went in. Side note of oil tests. Dargo’s same question can be for any interval. The odds of something happening all at one time is so slim, you better play the lottery at the same time. If something did the oil in question would not do anything. If you do yearly oil test it will show a trend. So we could play the “why if” till the cows come home.

The “contaminants” theory is not even a factor if you use a good oil and oil filter. Again I am not saying anything new here that has not been stated in the past 20+ years.

To close here, no one on this forum or anywhere can tell how dirty an oil is by looking at it. That is just plain wrong. You need an oil tests to see the results. Unless you are Superman or The Green Lantern, you can’t tell a TBN of 1 or 12, or an OXD level of 1% of 90%.

 

[Dargo]

Ha! Got you! I knew you couldn't resist it. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif I threw in a couple comments just so I could see your response. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif As you know, we agree on almost every aspect of oil except the change interval. It must be my age, or the hundreds of scars on my knuckles from working on engines, but I'll likely never go for the extreme drain intervals. I've probably had more stitches in my hands than an average intern will put in during their first year of residency in an ER. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif I'm just losing my desire to do much wrenching. Age.

Anyway, even if you believe in longer drain intervals, I don't think you can fault my 5 to 7k drain intervals with Red Line and Amsoil for totally eliminating any reasonable need for wrenching. Your worst comment would have to be that I'm wasting oil. As I said, I don't have any other bad habits to speak of, so why not oil. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I have a brother in law (I've likely mentioned him before /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif) who can tear up an anvil. I put him on to Red Line and 5k oil change intervals about 3 years ago. The last three years have been the first 3 year time frame that he hasn't had to have some major engine work. The boy if flat brutal on his stuff. You know, he is the sort that you never loan anything to. You just give it to him if you feel the need. You won't want it back. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Here is the shocking part; his current choice of vehicle for destruction is a Dodge Dakota with a 4.7. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif They are not known for being able to take exceptionally hard abuse, but he has hammered it for over three years now and has had zero problems. When I say he drives hard, take this into consideration; front brakes every 8000 miles, tires (brand doesn't matter) about every 12000 miles, and more speeding and "improper start" tickets than I want to count.

Now we have started the real test. I got him to start using the Amsoil synthetic transmission fluid with regular filter and fluid changes. What do you think the chances are that he will have a transmission last longer??

Oh yeah GSXR, on the fuel in the oil, that was specifically put in there to see if you would react. You knew that. I was wondering if you would claim that there should be no fuel in the oil. I'm quite aware of what is considered an acceptable amount. If you don't crank up your diesel, you likely will only get trace amounts. When you want to roll smoke; off all 4 of the rear tires and out the 5" exhaust pipe, you will certainly get some fuel in your oil. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[gsxr1100]

I know where you put those "little Red Harings" in there for me to pick up on /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


I do not fault you but if you test at 7K then at 12K with some very small delta in results, you are gaining nothing.

I know the water one, My old Powerstroke had 1.1% and I flipped. It was due to the huge amounts of idling I did. But on the flip side my GSXR1100 with with one tire spinning and 140 HP I have never had over 1.2%. That high % was due to again idling, start and stopping and the first start of the year.

 

[MrGreene]

Great debate and infor. from two very well informed posters. I set-up machinery in a factory for years before I was blessed with a outside job. There were several times that I would have to ask for the industrial engineer to come out on the floor and show him that what he had put down on paper would not work on the machine. I will go with the seasoned mechanic who has those battle scars on the knuckles. Again, great infor. from both sides and just my opinion /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MrGreene

Beer is the cornerstone of mankind