SPLITTING A TS254c

[bluechip]

The disk you are showing is your PTO disk, the main disk is inside the clutch assy, between the two pressure plates. (note the hole size is different). The chinese bearings, like many components on these tractors, are designed to do their job and not much more. The bearing is desinged for momentary engagement with the fingers while shifting into gear and starting the tractor moving. Resting a foot on the clutch pedal, or operating the tractor without proper free travel of the pedal will keep the bearing in contact with the fingers. After some time of this, the bearing seizes, then each time you step on the clutch, you start grinding the fingers against a now stationary bearing. Also as the clutch wears the fingers move closer to the bearing (this is why you have to adjust for free travel again). It is not common for the bearing to move forward as all the pressures of its work push it back onto the seat. It may be possible for a seized bearing to spin on its seat, indicating replacement of the seat but not normally required. It could be possible a seat was incorrectly machined and the bearing not fully seated. Teh TS254/354C model has a lot of mechanical advantage on the clutch linkange which makes it very easy to push the clutch pedal. just resting your foot on the clutch can reduce the pressure on the pressure plate and disk, causing slippage. The clutches on chinese tractors are not forgiving of any slipping. I always recommend that once the tractor (truck bus, whatever) is moving, your foot needs to be OFF the pedal. If the tractor cannot do the work without clutching, the gear is too high, and if there is not a low enough gear, the work is too much for the tractor.

 

[grsr3]

FINAL SOLUTION------This should end the throw out bearing problem for Kama owners.
Pic 1 and 041 show the new BCA bearing mounted on the bearing collar and the new Chinese bearing loosely mounted so you can see how close they are. I had the collar machined to accept the BCA bearing---model 2505-14---cost of bearing $45.00---cost to machine--$20.00. Pic 004 is a close up 0f the BCA mounted on the collar.
Pic 006 and 007 show the two bearings next to each other ---you can see how similar they are---EXCEPT---you can hardly get any side movement out of the BCA----and the Chinese bearing is as loose as a goose---no comparison at all. Pic 002 is a spec sheet from the BCA catalog the guy at the bearing store gave me. He wasn't sure but he thought someone may make a similar one with a grease fitting on it for future re-greasing. He didn't have one and I was not going to do any more waiting. As soon as I get my clutch fingers from Chip I re-assemble and go back to work (play). A word about splitting this machine.
It's not as hard as you may think. I would divide the job into 4 major categories.
First you need to remove the loader and the loader brackets. If you never done that (and I hadn't) it's about a two hour job---pic014 shows the loader off. I didn't mean for it to lay on the walk but it worked out that way while trying to manuver things around. It's a tricky job because you must keep the hydraulic lines connected while you move the machine away and manuver the loader around to get it to stand right---WATCH THOSE LINES DON'T GET STRETCHED.
Second you need to get on a relatively flat and smooth surface and block it up slightly without jacking it completely off the ground. Pic 008, 009, and 010 show how I did it. I didn't trust those little casters on my toy jack when it came time to roll the rear away so I went with the "Egytian Pyramid Building" method and it works fine. And Greg is right about the entire front end (engine) pivoting from one side to the other. If you were to just jack up the front axle the engine would try to flop to one side or the other. I used some jack stands under the front ballast weight and a jack with a wood block on top under the engine casting. When you see it apart you can see that there is not much weight on the supports because it's fairly well balanced out. I think that if I had some 3" pipe about 4' or 5' long I could probably slip it over those loader arms on the rear end and pick it up and roll the thing around pretty easily. My wife suggested I run it down to the street and take the neighbors for a ride in it-----like a Rickshaw. PLEASE DON'T TRY THAT----JUST KIDDING!
Thirdly you need to disconnect things that will be in the way---and there are two major areas of concern---one is the wiring harness (see pic 011) and the other is the steering hydraulic lines. The other stuff like the fuel line and some other linkage stuff are minor and obvious---just look around and see what has to come apart. I had to loosen--but not remove--- the fuel tank to get to the top bolt for the steering hydraulic line. And feeding the wiring harness out of the dash is tedious and time consuming.
Fourth and lastly is the unbolting--which is very easy--everything is readily accessible with standard sockets, extensions, box wrenches, etc. Eleven bolts and the bell housing is read to come off. The actual separating of the two ends was a little troublesome. There is a space behind the starter where you can insert a pry bar to begin the process. You want to try to have as little stress at the joint area as possible so when the halves separate one end or the other doesn't spring upward or drop downward. That's why I suggested earlier not to jack the machine off the ground. I did that at first and realized it was not a good idea. The way the machine sits in its normal stance is the best way to keep it. I was able to adjust it slightly up and down by hammering wooden shims between the blocks. Start to pry slightly and evenly around the bell housing and it will eventually come apart. That's it. Each category of work could take up to two or three hours. I took my time and actually did each step on different days because I was so unsure of what I was doing.
I also found some wiring issues that needed working on.

 

[bluechip]

If you didn't get the fingers Friday, I think you will get them monday. New bearing looks good. While you have it split, I would remove the flywheel and check the bolts that hold the bell housing to the engine block. Yangdong engines have a knack for these coming loose. When this happens, the bellhousing cocks on an angle and the seal binds the crankshaft, also oil pours out between the two casings. Owners who have had this happen often think the engine is shot. but the bad news is you have to split it to fix it so now is an excellent time to do a little PM in there. Use locktite. This goes for Kamas and Jinmas with Yangdong engines. We always pull the flywheel in our shop and retorque/loctite these bolts.

 

[greg_g]

What's done is done - but I'm curious why you elected to disconnect the wiring at the instrument end. I found it simpler to leave the cowl/dash/tank/etc completely alone, and disconnect the wiring at the hardware ends. Doing so also afforded the opportunity to reroute some wires upon reassembly (I didn't like where the factory had run some of them).

//greg//

 

[grsr3]

HI GUYS,
I TRIED TO REPLY TO YOU YESTERDAY BUT WHEN IT ASKS ME TO LOG IN (AFTER I'VE WRITTEN A NOTE AND SUBMITTED IT FOR PREVIEWING) IT REDIRECTS ME TO A BLANK PAGE. When I go back the note is gone----a real pain in the ***. I'll try again.
To Greg-
I took another look at the harness and you're right. I don't know why I didn't see it the first time. 4 wires to the alternator-2 to the starter-4 easy disconnects to the headlights-2 to the sensors---looks real easy---I did it the hard way. I also now have access to that pilot bearing you talked about before. See the pics below. It looks and feels ok--but not well greased. The number on it is CSC----ZE029. Wonder if there's an American replacement for that???? I hope people are reading these follow up notes---it would save them a lot of time.
To Chip-
I posted some pics of the front half of the bell housing with fly wheel off. BTW that's a lot more than a flywheel. I guess that big weight they cast in with the flywheel is for more torque/momentum??? Whatever. That area looks real clean--almost new. Everything looks tight. Now which of those bolts should be removed and locktited---all??? There are 8 brass plated and 4 chrome plated---you can see them clearly in pic 018. The pilot bearing is in pic 016. Also anything else you think I should do while I'm at it???
Will wait for your reply.

 

[greg_g]

Pilot bearings are so relatively inexpensive, that's it's almost foolhardy not to replace it when the opportunity presents itself. A standard 6302Z bearing should be readily available just about anywhere for about five bucks: 2 Bearings 6203ZZ 17x40x12 Shielded:Ball Bearings:VXB

..greg..

 

[bluechip]

OK the brassy colored bolts are the important ones. looks like you have lock washers without flat washers under them. The first one of these I did had flat washers under the lock washers, sort of defetes the purpose of the lock washer in my opinion, but if they are tight, you are probably OK. If you wanted to do a preventive measure, you could pull each, add locktite and retorque them. Chinese lock washers usually self destruct when loosened so you had better replace them too. Seemed like the ones I worke don the bolts were black, maybe someone has already been in there and repaired this or maybe the factory got it right on yours...It is worth a check because as you now know, its a bit of work to get back in there.

 

[grsr3]

Greg-

The number on my pilot bearing is CSC---ZE029. In my Kama parts catalog they call it #60203. Your numbers are different. How did you get from my numbers to yours.

 

[grsr3]

[QUOTE=bluechip; If you wanted to do a preventive measure, you could pull each, add locktite and retorque them.

Chip-what are the specs on the torque.
G.

 

[greg_g]

How did you get from my numbers to yours.

I read it right off the bearing. 60203 is stamped into the bearing face. Measure your takoff, confirm that it's 17x40x12. If yes, then buy a 60203.

//greg//

 

[psj12]

Looking at the picture of your pilot bearing, it appears that it is missing some balls near the top.

 

[greg_g]

If yes, then buy a 60203.

//greg//

Sorry, typographical error. 6203Z is stamped into the face of my spare TS345C pilot bearing. Should be same as your TS254. Measure your takoff, confirm that it's 17x40x12. If yes, then buy a 6203Z.

Note: looking at this Russian site http://www.priam.ru/dpi/list08.htm it appears that a 60203 crosses over to a 6203Z anyway

//greg//

 

[grsr3]

Latest-
All bell housing-to-engine bolts where tighten to about 2 LBS. of torque. A four year old with a box wrench and some instruction could have easily taken them off---that's sad. Removed all bolts (2 at a time) and used Permatex brand thread locker (red) and tightened to about 90 lbs(+-). Having some trouble with those clutch fingers. The old pins need to be ground down just a little at the leading tip to get them to go thru the new fingers---and those springs are a bit of a pain to deal with---but they're going on. Should be running at the end of today if I'm not interrupted---which is usually the case.
G.

 

[mtschwartz]

I just wanted to send a reply Thanking all the contributors to this thread. My Kama TS254c throw out bearing self destructed this weekend and did the exact same damage described here. I'll be contacting Chip today and hopefully he'll have the parts I need. I'm really glad to have another option than to put it back together with another Chinese bearing.

I used a floor jack in the back and an engine hoist in the front. After the split I supported both ends with floor jacks for additional stability and safety. I had already done all the parts removal and split before reading this thread. I followed the same process but I probably would have spent less time figuring everything out for myself had I read it first.

Again, thanks to all. Reading other's experiences really helps plodding along forward.

Matt

 

[mtschwartz]

Chip doesn't have the primary clutch release fingers for the drive transmission (1st engagement) for the TS254c nor did he have any on order when I talked to him last week. He did have a clutch assembly on order that he thought would be in this week. At $500 for what will be 3 clutch release fingers I'm in a bit of sticker shock! The fingers are $15.95 but are 6 weeks to order and $150 air freight!

Does anyone know if you can leave out the 3 primary release fingers and put it back together to use until the replacement fingers arrive? That's basically how mine was operating anyway until the bearing self-destructed.

Also, I've been looking for a comparable replacement since I figured the chinese didn't completely invent that clutch design on their own. It looks to me if it might be designed after a Long tractor 11" clutch assembly built in Romania. Why the chinese wouldn't choose something with a better service record, such as a Massey-Furgeson 135, I haven't a clue. I'm trying to find a Long dealer now to compare measurements.

I'm also trying to figure out if I may be able to repair my clutch fingers. I doubt it but may try anyway. The outside frame steel is still intact, just badly bent so I may try to heat and straighten the steel, reforge it, and add weld some contact surface material to it.

If anyone has any experience doing this, I'd greatly appreciate your guidance.

Thanks all!

 

[Affordable]

I'm not sure if this is the same Rongcheng Clutch that Jinma Uses ,maybe Chip can confirm this, if so we keep the complete assemblies in stock



Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[greg_g]

Does anyone know if you can leave out the 3 primary release fingers and put it back together to use until the replacement fingers arrive?

Nope. One set of 3 are required for the PTO clutch, the other set of 3 are for the main drive clutch. I have a rebuilt six finger clutchpack with PTO friction disc and both bearings if you're interested. It came out of my TS354C.

Tommy; I thought I could help another member out here a while back with a six finger clutch problem. I'm pretty it was a Jinma. But as soon as he uploaded a couple of photos, I saw straight away that his was different than the TaiShan

//greg//

 

[Affordable]

Well,that sums that up, I can get The Kama parts too,but I have been leaving that up to Chip,I will check with him if he does not plan to keep some clutchs in stock I will bring some in,maybe he's just sold out right now.I have orders leaving China monthly so I can get some added if I need to


Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[mtschwartz]

Chip says he's got a clutch kit coming in this week but not the individual fingers, which is all I need. I hate to buy the entire clutch kit at around $500 just to get $50 worth of fingers. I plan on fixing this thing right and selling it cheap to get it out of my hair. Is there any chance you could order me a set of the primary 1st to engage clutch fingers?

I bought the TS254c 4 years ago to replace my tired 1973 Massey Ferguson 135 and have worked more on the Kama than I ever did on the MF135 and it has over 2800 hours. The Kama is just over 125 hours. The only thing wrong with the MF was it was tired and worn out. I'm going to rebuild the motor and go back to the MF. It was much more dependable and parts are much easier to come by when something does go wrong.

Thanks!

 

[mtschwartz]

Greg, how much do you want of the rebuilt unit? I just need to fingers but I'd be interested in buying a used/rebuilt clutch pack to get them.

Thanks, Matt