Snow Equipment Buying/Pricing Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway

[LouNY]

How did you figure your turning radius?
I'm thinking that even without braking the inside tire it should be well under 10' for the inside rear.

I plow different then you are talking I put everything off to the low side,
I also plow mine in segments, the first "straight" then the first turn, then the short straight and the second turn,
then the last straight.
It works better for me that way, as I am pushing the turns and much of the straights over the banks.
This is a video clip I made 3 years ago of my driveway;

as you can see while I have a drop off on the low side of my driveway I do have trees to stop the fall,
most of my drop off is 10-14 feet and some is only 4-6'.

 

[ruffdog]

I was thinking the markers would be on the inside edge and all the snow gets pushed outside over the hill.??? Maybe? Toolcat has issues with chain clearance and ground clearance...I know...I just dug mine out from a pile...don't ask. Maybe a modern version of this small skidder?

Used Construction, Farm, Fleet, and Government Equipment For Sale | Auctions | Purple Wave

 

[MarkFromWA]

LouNY, I was calculating the minimum turning radius where the rear tires are following the path cleared by the blower. Think about a radius from the center of a circle to the edge of the tractor's rear tire. The rear axle is in line with this radius, so the tractor itself is perpendicular to the radius/tangential to the circle. Then sweep the radius towards the front of the tractor. The minimum turning radius is given when that sweep barely touches the edge of the snowblower. So there are two variables:

X: the distance from the rear axle to the snowblower
Y: the additional width of the snowblower compared to the tractor on one side (5.5 inches for the Kioti, 3.5 inches for the Kubota)

Now draw a right triangle with three edges. The first is the radius to the rear tire (let's call it R). The second is a tangent from the rear tire though to the snowblower (length X). The third is the hypotenuse to connect those two lines (let's call it H).

We'll call the angle of the triangle at the center A, and it's is calculated as arctan(X/R). H is sqrt(X^2 + R^2) which should be equal to R + Y / cos(A). You could solve that system of equations for R. However, being realistic about the turning radius, A is going to be really small, so cos(A) will be close enough to 1 that you can just substitute it.

tl;dr: solve sqrt(X^2 + R^2) = R+Y for R. If we say X is 10 feet and Y is (5.5/12) feet, then R is ~108: sqrt(1^2 + R^2) = R+(5.5/12) - Wolfram|Alpha

 

[Reb954]

LouNY, I was calculating the minimum turning radius where the rear tires are following the path cleared by the blower. Think about a radius from the center of a circle to the edge of the tractor's rear tire. The rear axle is in line with this radius, so the tractor itself is perpendicular to the radius/tangential to the circle. Then sweep the radius towards the front of the tractor. The minimum turning radius is given when that sweep barely touches the edge of the snowblower. So there are two variables:

X: the distance from the rear axle to the snowblower
Y: the additional width of the snowblower compared to the tractor on one side (5.5 inches for the Kioti, 3.5 inches for the Kubota)

Now draw a right triangle with three edges. The first is the radius to the rear tire (let's call it R). The second is a tangent from the rear tire though to the snowblower (length X). The third is the hypotenuse to connect those two lines (let's call it H).

We'll call the angle of the triangle at the center A, and it's is calculated as arctan(X/R). H is sqrt(X^2 + R^2) which should be equal to R + Y / cos(A). You could solve that system of equations for R. However, being realistic about the turning radius, A is going to be really small, so cos(A) will be close enough to 1 that you can just substitute it.

tl;dr: solve sqrt(X^2 + R^2) = R+Y for R. If we say X is 10 feet and Y is (5.5/12) feet, then R is ~108: sqrt(1^2 + R^2) = R+(5.5/12) - Wolfram|Alpha

You might be overthinking this just a bit.

 

[CobyRupert]

Starting from the top with a plow is good because
1) That’s where you live and would naturally start, and
2) It’s easier to plow as gravity is assisting, as such, your less likely to be digging and spinning up the driveway.
.....but...
1) It’s more forgiving when you get stuck going uphill or drop a front tire in a ditch? Just let gravity back you out. Going downhill and getting stuck, you have a double whammy working against you as you try to climb uphill and out (granted you may get stuck less using gravity going downhill).
2) When you encounter frozen ice going uphill, you spin and slow down or stop. Worse case is you slide back down to where you last had traction. Plowing downhill you may accelerate until you reach the bottom or can throw out an anchor.
I suppose once you know “your hill” it’s no big deal to go downhill.

 

[FatTire]

Google "Unimog". Seriously.
Here is a link to some machines for sale. In particular take a look at the truck at the bottom, Listing #1. Unimog(R) Exchange

 

[fishhead]

So north of republic?
If so that might be the only part of WA getting drier snow.
Have a bunch of friends in the Curlew through Tonasket area.
Not sure I agree about less ice in the inland Northwest than the east having lived in various places in both.
I like the Unimog suggestion- i guess if you get to the point you can't clear it just drive it.

So yes, it's narrow and the edge drops off. It's an adventure, but so far we've never not been able to make it up with snow tires. The steepest section is luckily lower-consequence without a steep drop-off. The sections with a steep drop-off tend to be closer to the average grade (10-15%). The last photo I posted makes it look steeper than it is at that narrow spot--that might be 12%. We're not the only ones in the area with a hairy driveway, so plow contractors aren't shocked out of their boots. The last guy charged us $120 per plow (I'm not sure if that counts as a stack of benjamins, deezler). I think being out west helps, too. The meteorological conditions that lead to icy ski slopes in the Northeast likely make east-coast driveways icier too.

ruffdog, I think edge markers would just get in the way of the plow piles. The edge is obvious the first snow of the year, and I think the plow guy sets the first pile right at the edge and uses that as a guide the rest of the season. Another benefit to blowing would be that I could place concrete blocks (e.g. parking lot wheelstops) or some other guardrail around some of the hairier turns. ruffdog, you also asked about erosion/picking up rocks--during the summer we get small rocks falling into the driveway. During winter it's not an issue, probably because the uphill plow pile is catching anything coming down. I'm also interested in your experience with the toolcat as a snow removal tool. It's an interesting option, especially given the rear steer capability. But it's also expensive, lacks a high lift, and finding/fitting aggressive euro-style chains may be an issue.

Piloon, is your friend's machine a Kubota F3390? I had looked at the JD equivalent (1585) as an option to get rear steer. It seems a little low on horsepower, I'd be worried about fitting aggressive chains, and I'd like a back blade (and a loader for summer). I do worry about turning radius. The Kioti DK has a 74" blower and is 63" wide, which should lead to a ~100 ft turning radius. The Kubota L6060 also has a 74" blower but is 67" wide which should lead to a 170ft turning radius. I might be able to bolt some wings on the side of the blower to get another couple inches on each side, and the sharper turns would require some back-and-forth. It looks like the euros (ferrari, antonio carraro, etc) have tractors in the 50-ish HP range with reversible controls, but obviously little dealer support and also not great loader options (and also no back blade).

I'm in North Central WA, elevation ~2500-3000ft.

 

[number two]

Park at the bottom and snowmobile home?

 

[MarkFromWA]

I've thought about a snowcat, but there's a lot of logistical issues there (guests, etc). I think in the end it will be worth the time and expense to keep the road drivable. We do have a snowmobile (soon to be two) for recreation, but they're also a good backup if an incident occurs. I'd sell the place and move on if I had to snowmobile home for 4 months. The Unimog looks awesome, although it's not nearly as versatile as a tractor. Without dealer support I guess I'm responsible for maintenance, which is a worry on a 30+ year-old machine. I don't even have a garage yet. Maybe in the future and with some free time I'll go down that rabbit hole.

fishhead, we're further west, near Winthrop.

 

[ruffdog]

This video shows a guy plowing a steep and twisting driveway with a CUT, FEL, boxblade, R4 tires, NO chains, and oh crap moments at 3:50 and 6:30. Does he not use chains to protect the pavement but digging the bucket in to stop is ok?

 

[fishhead]

That was hard to watch, with chains that would have been done so much faster and safer. Chains are common here as are studs, had a propane truck come up the plowed drive today because the main road wasn't plowed- no big deal. Only really does damage if the wheels spin.
And what was up with the bucket being fully raised so much- that really isn't very smart if sliding was a risk.

This video shows a guy plowing a steep and twisting driveway with a CUT, FEL, boxblade, R4 tires, NO chains, and oh crap moments at 3:50 and 6:30. Does he not use chains to protect the pavement but digging the bucket in to stop is ok?

 

[ruffdog]

That was hard to watch, with chains that would have been done so much faster and safer. Chains are common here as are studs, had a propane truck come up the plowed drive today because the main road wasn't plowed- no big deal. Only really does damage if the wheels spin.
And what was up with the bucket being fully raised so much- that really isn't very smart if sliding was a risk.

Yes, hard to watch. Did the guy buy a tractor thinking he would get rich clearing driveways? I was waiting for him to go through one of the houses. :laughing:

 

[CobyRupert]

Did he plow a path about 1 box blade wide and then called it a day?

 

[LouNY]

I don't know were it was but it was definitely an inexperienced operator,
with insufficient equipment for the job he was doing.

 

[pmsmechanic]

What struck me about the video was how noisy the tractor was for being in a cab.

 

[oosik]

OK - Mark, I'm going to pass on some personal experiences that you probably will not like hearing. But you should really be considering these factors.

With that steep driveway and even with extensive improvements - the local fire department will not be able to access any structure "up on top". The local police probably will have great difficulties also. So .... especially without fire protection, you won't be able to get homeowners insurance on any structure now there or that you may build in the future. Also - without homeowners insurance there will be no bank that will loan money for home construction. This also means that should you desire to sell in the future - no prospective buyer would be able to secure a loan to purchase the property/home. You would have to find a buyer who has the cash or enter into a private contract.

I would have a serious discussion with your preferred lending institution before considering the construction of a permanent residence at the top of the road.

I built a cabin in Alaska. The closest road maintained by the government was 24 miles away. Same for power. There was no way the fire dept could have ever got to the cabin in the summer or winter. The State Police would have accessed the cabin by helicopter or ATV. But only in case of a homicide. There was not a single insurance company that would write a policy on the cabin or land. When we left Alaska I sold the property/cabin to a friend and we had a private contract.

We were going to retire on this land and expand on the cabin. These difficulties put a stop to this.

 

[LouNY]

There are a lot of driveways here that that fire and rescue (mine included) if they have not been plowed and sanded they can not access.
The rescue squad has snowmobiles and utv's they can call on.
I have had no trouble getting insurance on my place and back when I got the mortgage the driveway wasn't even discussed.
My insurance agent has been to the house, comes by every couple of years.

 

[TractorTYMe]

This video shows a guy plowing a steep and twisting driveway with a CUT, FEL, boxblade, R4 tires, NO chains, and oh crap moments at 3:50 and 6:30. Does he not use chains to protect the pavement but digging the bucket in to stop is ok?

That tractor would have studded Trygg chains up the wazoo if I had to deal with such a nasty driveway. Tarmac or no tarmac.

 

[PILOON]

In my city permits are refused based on accessibility or lack thereof.
They determined that they could be sued if emergency vehicles could not access a building.
By the same token not plowing a drive could annul your insurance coverage.

 

[MarkFromWA]

oosik, I appreciate your concerns. We have homeowners insurance on the current cabin (which is a real home: on-grid, septic, etc). State Farm's inspector even visited during the winter last year and was unfazed by the access. I'm much more worried about wildfires, in regards to both physical danger and the risk of being dropped by insurance. Both winter access and wildfire risks are manageable.