Snow Equipment Buying/Pricing Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway

   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #21  
Here’s something to think about, but no good answers:
Blowers are usually sold by width. Period. There’s usually little other information.
Regarding how fast you can go: Often it’s not limited by tractor’s horsepower, unless you don’t have enough. Beyond a certain point, more power won’t enable you to go faster (groundspeed-wise) unless you can rev the blower faster.
If you’re operating at 540 rpm, once you max out the amount of snow the auger can eat and the blower can pump though the chute at that rpm, that’s your maximum ground speed. More horsepower won’t help.
At that point you’d want a blower with faster gearing that turns the auger, blower, etc faster than other blowers. (This would also require more horsepower.)
Thus the height of the snow is directly related. (Twice the snow height = 1/2 the max speed.)

Now, if you use a wider blower, you can clear “faster” because you make less trips up and down driveway. Wider blower also makes it faster when you have very little snow and max. groundspeed is being determined by maximum tractor speed.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #22  
Mark - your driveway looks a whole lot like most of our Forrest Service roads over here in Ea WA. Must be a REAL BLAST navigating that driveway during spring thaw.

The best you probably will be able to do - a 45 to 55 hp 4WD tractor - European type Aquatine chain on all four wheels - a blower on the FEL or a forward mount blower on the 3-point.

I would have the rear tires filled with RimGuard or RV anti-freeze or windshield washer solution.

Unless you are willing to plow more frequently - the amount of snow shown in your later post - it's going to be dangerous to attempt to move that much at one time on that driveway with a rear blade. A FEL mounted blade will have similar problems. There will be considerable side slipping when trying to blade off that depth.

The safe method will be a blower. A quality blower will easily blow the snow completely off the driveway and beyond any further concern.

There would be NO WAY I would want to try and navigate the driveway and blow snow at the same time with a reverse mount blower on the 3-point. I'm meaning a blower where you have to drive the tractor in reverse. On that driveway you need your full attention in the forward direction.

And, BTW - you should be considering safe winter time operations - not speed. All speed is going to do is get you off the side of the mountain.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #23  
Is the driveway gravel that has runoff and erosion? How possible is it to pick up fist sized rocks while blowing?
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #24  
I suspect you will want a blower 12" to 24" wider than the tractor so you spend less time getting around the corners. Otherwise on the inside corners the tractor will be running in the snowbank. Also, notching the snow bank on the down hill side may help reduce the ice dams so the water will drain better in the spring.

You might also check into using a skid steer with blower. They are a lot more agile than a tractor but I don't know how they will handle the hills/ice/mud. I had a neighbor that used one for a mile of gravel driveway, I was always impressed by how well it worked. But his driveway was mostly flat.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #25  
I had a blower on my original tractor - Ford 1700. I would normally use the rear blade until the berms got so high - the blade would not throw the snow up and over the berm. Then I mount up the blower. With the blower I could cut back the berms. The Ford was just not heavy enough to clear the berms with the rear blade.

I've "blown" just about everything that you could ever find in the driveway ROW. Gravel, stones, pine cones, chunks of ice, sticks, limbs and even mice & pocket gophers. Even some snow. You would be surprised how many mice & pocket gophers like to burrow into the snow berms. And I've sheared my share of shear bolts also. When I had the blower - last job in the fall - walk the driveway and clear all FOD. Never seemed to get it all though.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #26  
This is a Grand L6060 with a 80" hydraulic snowblower. The hydraulic blowers attach to the loader arms, giving you a lot more adjustment for the blower. It has a cutting edge just like a bucket and will lift as high as the loader arms will reach. This will take care of any snow mother nature can dump on you. I don't use the chains but on your hilly terrain you would want them. Like another post said we love helping you spend money.

9r%5AdFsSIeVFVXpC85kIQ.jpg
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #27  
I'm in the mountains/foothills of WA with a 1-mile dirt/gravel driveway that is seriously steep (13% average, 21% maximum), plus another half mile that I share with neighbors. The driveway is narrow and curvy, and is cut across a steep hill so the edge drops off. We get about 100 of snow per year. Our plow guy has trouble with the volume some years (like this year), so I'm thinking about getting a tractor with a blower to take care of it myself. This would have the additional benefit of avoiding the plow piles that keep the driveway muddy in the spring after the rest of the snow has melted off. I don't want to be craning my neck for 2 miles every time it snows, so it's going to need to be a front blower. And, unless someone wants to talk me out of it, hydrostatic transmission and a cab. I have JD and Mahindra dealers an hour away, and Kubota, Kioti, New Holland, MF, and Bobcat dealers 2 hours away. At this point, I'm mostly looking at Kubota and Kioti.

My main question is around horsepower and ground speed. I don't want to spend more than an hour on a normal 6" snowfall, which means I normally need to be moving 2 mph at a minimum, hopefully at least 3 mph. Many people seem happy with the B2650, and people talk up the Kubota blowers a lot, but based on YouTube videos I've seen they are often moving fairly slow when blowing (perhaps close to 2 mph). If I buy a Kioti, I'm looking towards a 50+ hp DK. Will double the power that translate to being able to move twice as quickly when blowing? Kioti's literature on their DK-compatible blower recommends 25-40 PTO hp. Will it actually be able to effectively use all 40 hp, or does the snowblower design lead to declining ROI with each additional hp? What if I put it on a DK6010SE (which has 45 PTO hp)?

Reliability is a high priority--my driveway is trailer-unfriendly, and with the distance to the dealer it would become quite a headache. Being stranded in the winter would be especially unfortunate. Other than blowing speed and reliability, there are some additional priorities. In the winter, a heavier tractor would do better at breaking up driveway ice (I would have chains, of course), and would be more effective at pulling a stuck vehicle (which I hope won't happen, but good to be prepared). In the summer, my only regular use would be driveway maintenance, but there are lots of projects where I'd love to have a tractor with a FEL to move heavy things around (including when we build a new house to replace our cabin).

For winter maintenance of a steep, high-consequence driveway, what else should I be thinking about? From what I'm reading in threads, a rear blade to get more snow off the driveway (and reduce ice build-up) is a must. Is a salt/sand spreader effective, and if so, how much sand should I be spreading on a 1-mile driveway when I think things are going to get icy? Is there a better way to add traction to an icy surface (or avoid the ice altogether)?

If I planned to live where you are I'd be buying something like a CAT D5 or D6 with cab, stock up on 6 months worth of emergency food rations and prepare to wait out winter in the off the grid cabin. Or buy a helicopter.

I'm surprised you found a guy willing to plow your logging road.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #28  
I'm surprised you found a guy willing to plow your logging road.

RIGHT?!? Seems they'd have to be shown a whole stack of benjamins, or be hopped up on a nice big pile of meth, to want to attempt driving up that trail and start plowing it during a snowstorm. If your truck slides off the edge... who rescues you, a sikorsky? Have to leave it until May and lose your income source?
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #29  
My driveway is only a quarter of a mile, 25 years ago it looked a lot like yours. I spent quite a bit of time widening it.
I normally use a blade to clear mine as it will get it cleaner then a blower. I also use my back blade more then my front blade.
My travel speed with the rear blade down and being pulled is higher then my pushing speed for the front blade.
The rear blade will bounce and jump or stones and frozen ruts, the front blade is bouncing on the trip springs all the time.
I go slow blading the snow off, 5-7 mph with the rear blade after the first couple of times, the first time after it has frozen up
it's only 2-3 mph and when it hasn't froze the surface it's maybe 2 trying not to dig in and move too much gravel.
I normally do not bother trying to plow going up the driveway, with chains on it is possible to do so however it does make it dig and chew
and is rougher on everything I find it much easier on me and my equipment to plow down hill and reverse back up for the next pass.
With a back blade that is wider then your tractor when angled and especially if it can offset there is no need to have a large back on the down hill side of the driveway.
I do not plow any snow towards the high side of the driveway, that side has a small ditch were the bank meets the driveway and a small border that I leave unplowed.
That unplowed section is to aid in slowing or stopping a vehicle that wants to start skidding and sliding. I plow every thing to the low side were it can go over the bank.
One advantage to a front mounted blade is that the angled blade will tend to push the front end away from the edge, a rear blade especially when offset
will have a tendency to try and shove the front end toward the bank. One way to prevent that is to turn the blade a 180 and push with it then it will be trying to push the
front axle into the roadway.
I have a blower and while it is nice for the deeper snows it is slower then a blade, I would prefer an inverted pull type blower but I'm cheap.
Also a blower would be difficult to get way over toward the downhill bank.
With a blade I have many times found myself riding on packed snow and ice on the downhill side which gets your attention.

The larger bi-directional tractors would be ideal many times. The Versatile or New Holland are hydrostatic drive the rebuilt and replacement cost is high
when they go out.
This is from tractor house search for bi directional;
Pardon Our Interruption

Also on the sander issue;
I've had a sander for many years after several of sanding from the back of a pickup while someone else drove it.
A sander will cover 4 times the driveway with the same amount of sand and 10 times faster.
I use a smaller sander that would not kill a 3/4 or one ton. For many years I kept a truck for sanding even though I didn't plow with it,
with chains and a loaded sander it would go through quite a bit if necessary.
This year I am switching to a trailer for my sander it will need brakes and tire chains to be controllable going down a slippery drive.
Sand will need to be mixed with salt when it is stock piled and covered, salty sand will never dry out as the salt will absorb moisture.
It will need to be covered to prevent snow and rain from diluting the salt and then the entire pile will freeze into one big chunk.
Also you can not load a sander before you are going to use it as once it's out of a pile and exposed to the air temps it will start
to freeze to your sander, unless you have a nice heated shop to park it in.
sander 7.jpg bunker 7.jpg View attachment IMG_20180205_115802129.jpg View attachment IMG_20180205_102903102_HDR.jpg blades 1.jpg

This is kind of a long winded post but I hope it's helpful.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #30  
Bombardier J5 with a front blade.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #31  
A neighbor has a similar drive.
Couple of days back I saw his car off to the side resting at about 45 deg's.
The tow truck had one difficult time extracting him!

His best ride would have been that J5!
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #32  
Mark -they were ladder on a b3030- i have since gone to a JD 3720 with euro style and traction is definitely improved as is ride quality.

I really appreciate the insights and advice, folks. There are a lot of questions, so I'll try to cover them in groups instead of individually. I'm also attaching some photos of the driveway. We had a Cat 930K come yesterday to deal with our plow piles, and a sand truck came today. Two of the photos are before the Cat came, one photo is after the Cat but before the sand, and one is with the sand down.

I wouldn't necessarily call 6" a normal snowfall--sometimes it's sometimes 1" or 2", sometimes 8", sometimes in between. It's not often much more than 6", and it would be very rare (less than once per winter) to get more than 16" in a day. We're on the east side of the mountains, so the snow is usually dry. I used 6" as the guideline because it's usually less than that, and the handful of times per year it's more than 6" I'm not averse to spending extra time blowing at a slower speed (as opposed to spending a lot of money on a monster tractor that can blow any amount of snow at 3 mph). Snow drifts are uncommon. We've had the property three years--the past two winters have been mild, and this winter is closer to normal. This winter is the first time we've had a problem with ice buildup. In previous winters the driving surface was usually snow, but good snow tires were always sufficient (blizzaks on the car, hakkas on the truck). Sunny days and ground heat would reduce the mass, and cold clear nights would cause frost growth on the surface.

Our plow driver had a V-plow and got stuck with some frequency (taking an hour+ to get unstuck). His equipment (truck, tires, chains) weren't the best, but he was experienced. He quit on us this weekend after getting stuck badly and missing other clients (I don't blame him, an unfortunate situation); we'll see how the next plow driver does. No matter how good the plow driver is, on high-volume winters the piles will eventually require machinery. I don't want to go through the learning curve of plowing on a high-consequence driveway, I don't want to deal with plow piles during the winter, some places (especially around the house) don't have good places to put piles, I don't like the extra driveway mud from plow piles in the spring melt, and I want the flexibility to leave the big snowfalls to blow in one pass instead of waking up in the middle of the night to do an intermediate pass. For all those reasons, I want to blow instead of plow. And perhaps silly, but I prefer the aesthetics of a blown driveway compared to plow piles. Captain Dirty, your point about keeping a plow contractor while I learn the ropes is well-taken. The sand today was delivered today at a good price and without fuss, so maybe that's the last job I'd try to take on myself.

We have ~100 acres, but almost entirely steeply hilled. I have no desire to farm or otherwise touch most of it. Around the house we have a few acres to landscape/etc, but I can manage that mowing with my BCS. The tractor is primarily for winter snow removal, and the only summer activities are moving heavy things with the loader, and maintaining the driveway (box blade, land plane, or similar). I certainly have no high-horsepower requirements in the summer. If it weren't for the snow removal, I'd probably buy an old lower-hp open-station tractor with a decent loader for the summer tasks.

The advice here seems to be to definitely aim higher than the Kubota B/Kioti CK series. There are a few youtubers with extensive collections of front-blower videos. In particular, Mark Holbrook's channel has a lot of videos with a front blower on a Kubota L4760 in Idaho, which should be fairly similar to my climate (albeit with more drifts). He seems to move at a decent pace when blowing 6", and so I'm using that setup as a benchmark in my head. Based on that benchmark, is upgrading the hp to the L6060 going to come with a noticeable increase in blowing pace? (sounds like going with the high HP is a good idea) And is switching from Kubota L to Kioti DK without changing the HP or blower width going to have similar performance? (not sure)

Leonz, your recommendation to use a row crop tractor while rear facing is definitely interesting. I had seen that such tractors exist, but assumed they were so astronomically expensive that it wouldn't make sense given the lack of summer use. I would appreciate the rear steer so that the wheels more closely follow the path of the blower. In addition to the cost, I'd be worried about the ease of operation/maintenance of a used tractor engineered for large farms compared to a Kubota Grand L built with less experienced owners in mind.

fishhead, your story about sliding on a 20% slope with v-bar chains on all four tires certainly got my attention. Were those cross-link chains or a web/net-style like Aquiline Talon or Trygg SMT? How heavy was that tractor?


View attachment 685221View attachment 685222View attachment 685223View attachment 685224
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #33  
A friend has exactly the tractor U want. (not 4 sale)

It is a Kubota product that has rear steer and is essentially set up like a 0 turn landscape machine.
Looks like he is driving backwards!
The product is offered with sweeper, mower, blade and his has a heated cab with wipers front and back.
Oh, and diesel powered.
(He only has the blower attachment which is all hydraulically controlled).

It is a very agile machine with fantastic visibility plus is 4 x 4 and hydrostatic drive.

To see it in action is like watching a forklift maneuver in a crowded warehouse.

Wish I knew the model # but I'm sure any Kubota dealer can advise you.

The only downside was weight on the steering wheels but we added weights at that end.
If that machine had chains on the drive wheels I think it could even climb a cliff!
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #34  
i think a rear pull would work fine but with any blower i would be concerned about rocks. This year with the constant freeze thaw we have had a ton rolling down from hillsides that get hidden when it snows. I would want to try to widen that road, mark the edge well with wands and plow a berm on the downhill side to try to retain a vehicle (best done with super wet snow) and a soft berm on the uphill to catch the rollers. I think going wider than the tractor is a good call.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #35  
Mark, where in WA are you located?
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #36  
A friend has exactly the tractor U want. (not 4 sale)

It is a Kubota product that has rear steer and is essentially set up like a 0 turn landscape machine.
Looks like he is driving backwards!
The product is offered with sweeper, mower, blade and his has a heated cab with wipers front and back.
Oh, and diesel powered.
(He only has the blower attachment which is all hydraulically controlled).

It is a very agile machine with fantastic visibility plus is 4 x 4 and hydrostatic drive.

To see it in action is like watching a forklift maneuver in a crowded warehouse.

Wish I knew the model # but I'm sure any Kubota dealer can advise you.

The only downside was weight on the steering wheels but we added weights at that end.
If that machine had chains on the drive wheels I think it could even climb a cliff!

Sounds like a Kubota F series mower, which can mount a 50" blower or ? 60"blade, JD and NH have similar units;
f3990cab_studio_l.jpg
It would take at least 3 maybe 4 passes for a narrow driveway.
 
   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #37  
I really appreciate the insights and advice, folks. There are a lot of questions, so I'll try to cover them in groups instead of individually. I'm also attaching some photos of the driveway. We had a Cat 930K come yesterday to deal with our plow piles, and a sand truck came today. Two of the photos are before the Cat came, one photo is after the Cat but before the sand, and one is with the sand down.

View attachment 685221View attachment 685222View attachment 685223View attachment 685224

So, the person that came and plowed used a 29,000 lb end loader that had chains? Looks like a good choice of tool for the job. What altitude is the property? With a diesel, lack of air really hurts you so you will want a turbo to make up for that. Also, I would be looking at equipment that is not just "front wheel assist". Get something that is made strong enough to last pulling with the front axle and has GREAT brakes.

https://www.cat.com/en_ZA/products/new/equipment/wheel-loaders/small-wheel-loaders/1000016200.html
 
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   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway
  • Thread Starter
#39  
So yes, it's narrow and the edge drops off. It's an adventure, but so far we've never not been able to make it up with snow tires. The steepest section is luckily lower-consequence without a steep drop-off. The sections with a steep drop-off tend to be closer to the average grade (10-15%). The last photo I posted makes it look steeper than it is at that narrow spot--that might be 12%. We're not the only ones in the area with a hairy driveway, so plow contractors aren't shocked out of their boots. The last guy charged us $120 per plow (I'm not sure if that counts as a stack of benjamins, deezler). I think being out west helps, too. The meteorological conditions that lead to icy ski slopes in the Northeast likely make east-coast driveways icier too.

ruffdog, I think edge markers would just get in the way of the plow piles. The edge is obvious the first snow of the year, and I think the plow guy sets the first pile right at the edge and uses that as a guide the rest of the season. Another benefit to blowing would be that I could place concrete blocks (e.g. parking lot wheelstops) or some other guardrail around some of the hairier turns. ruffdog, you also asked about erosion/picking up rocks--during the summer we get small rocks falling into the driveway. During winter it's not an issue, probably because the uphill plow pile is catching anything coming down. I'm also interested in your experience with the toolcat as a snow removal tool. It's an interesting option, especially given the rear steer capability. But it's also expensive, lacks a high lift, and finding/fitting aggressive euro-style chains may be an issue.

Piloon, is your friend's machine a Kubota F3390? I had looked at the JD equivalent (1585) as an option to get rear steer. It seems a little low on horsepower, I'd be worried about fitting aggressive chains, and I'd like a back blade (and a loader for summer). I do worry about turning radius. The Kioti DK has a 74" blower and is 63" wide, which should lead to a ~100 ft turning radius. The Kubota L6060 also has a 74" blower but is 67" wide which should lead to a 170ft turning radius. I might be able to bolt some wings on the side of the blower to get another couple inches on each side, and the sharper turns would require some back-and-forth. It looks like the euros (ferrari, antonio carraro, etc) have tractors in the 50-ish HP range with reversible controls, but obviously little dealer support and also not great loader options (and also no back blade).

I'm in North Central WA, elevation ~2500-3000ft.
 
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   / Snowblowing setup for a long, steep driveway #40  
Wow, no one can you accuse of not considering multiple options. Rather than ping ponging around, you might want to try to find some locals who do their own snow removal, and see what their experiences have been - good and bad. Have you actually had any in depth discussions with implement dealers?

Your property is beautiful. How long have you had it? Maybe the better near term plan would be to contract out the snow removal for now, and spend more energy and $$ next summer widening and improving the road.
 

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