Small Square Balers & Bale Throwers

burnetma · Apr 11, 2005

I just received my new tractor and now I am on the hunt for a good small square baler with a bale thrower. The models that I am considering are NH 570 w/72 thrower or a JD 348 w/48 thrower. I have been told the following:
1. NH balers are the "best on the market" for durability and reliability.
2. JD balers make a "perfect" bale that is well liked by commercial hay buyers because they stack well.
3. The NH 72 thrower can NOT be turned off. If you do not want to use it, you have to either remove it from the machine or turn it way down and play chase the bale.
4. The JD thrower can be turned off and used like a chute.

My questions:
1. Is there any merit to the above statements?
2. What are some users opinions regarding using these balers behind a 65 pto HP machine?
3. If you could buy either, which one would you buy and why?

Thanks in advance.
Mark

cowboydoc · Apr 11, 2005

I wouldn't agree that the NH is any better than the JD. Don't get me wrong the NH is a great baler but so is the JD. You won't go wrong either way there. I believe your statements are correct on the throwers.

With the 5420 you will not have any trouble at all with the square baler and pulling a loaded wagon. I had one for one season and it performed flawlessly. I have a 328 baler and the 5420 never even knew it was back there even with a rack behind it.

I would buy JD but that is because the nearest NH dealer is 75 miles away. I have 20 JD dealers in that same 75 mile range. If I break down I want to make sure I can get parts and/or service in a hurry.

green4710 · Apr 11, 2005

Food for thought, if your looking for the best bale maker, look at the hesston centerline balers. The centerline balers make the best bales, as the potential of making a banana bale is almost no existant. As far as the thrower goes, they use a hydraulic motor powering two belts, no big things flinging bales up in the air. Also, if you look at say a 348 baler, one of the strings are closer to the edge than the other. Ive stacked a bunch from numerous balers with an auto bale wagon, by far the best stacks seem to come from experienced operators, regardless of balers. Do look at the centerline balers.....very nice.

burnetma · Apr 11, 2005

cowboydoc,
Sounds like good advice. I am also glad to hear that somebody has good success with a JD 5420 in baling. I was a little concerned considering most farmers in the area are using 80-100 hp machines to do their baling.

Any thoughts on hydraulic tensioning vs. spring?

Thanks again,
Mark

burnetma · Apr 11, 2005

green4710,

I will look into the Hesston balers. I did not even consider going that direction. I will have to find the nearest dealer and give them a call.

My 75 year old father in-law will be aiding my education in baling. I have never run the baler before. I always seem to have been on the receiving end of the baler or in the mow. (The downside of being a big boy.) I do know how to rake though and that is part of the battle.

What is your opinion on hydraulic tensioning vs. spring?

Thanks again for the advice,
Mark

Robert_in_NY · Apr 12, 2005

I will weigh in on this some. I have some experience with both balers. However the JD was an older baler and for all I know they have upgraded their thrower some but if not I would take the NH thrower over the JD for accuracy. You can dial the NH thrower in to drop a bale in the back corner of your rack with no trouble at all. The JD thrower that I used was not as easy to use because it doen't throw the bale into the wagon, it lauches it up in the air and it lands in the wagon. It is like tossing a base ball. The NH is an overhand throw, the JD is an underhand toss. I hope that makes some sense.

As for the balers, both balers are top of the line and from talking to a lot of people it comes down to dealers. One knock I hear against the JD is the auger feed system to bring the hay over. Most everyone agrees the NH tine system is a better system as it does not plug very easy and the auger will sometimes wrap hay around it. I have not had this happen but it is what I have been told by numerous people (even the guys who run them). I would think the situation would have to be perfect for the hay to wrap the auger though.

As for good bales, that is up to the operator. Both balers will make great bales but they will both make junk bales if you don't know what you are doing.

Hydraulic tension vs spring. Anyone that I have talked to that has tried Hydraulic will never go back and they all wish they had changed sooner. I run springs still and want to add hydraulic when I get the time.

As for the center lines, there is one farm up here that has 6 small square balers. One NH 575, one centerline hesston and 4 JD. He tried the NH and Hesston but is going to stay with JD. He uses NH stack wagons and does a lot of hay and straw. They have two balers running behind the combines in straw while the other 4 are usually in a couple fields doing hay. I will talk to them about what they didn't like about the other balers in a couple weeks. Might not be anything wrong with them, it could be they weren't any better then the JD so why change. I will let you know.

slowzuki · Apr 12, 2005

Those are some top dollar high capacity balers you are talking about there. If looking used, be careful of worn out models traded in by commercial hay producers.

I have a JD 336 and was a little concerned about the auger at first. After using it for 4000 bales last summer in the longest hay I have ever baled (waist deep when cut, weather didn't cooperate) I only had one plug.

That happened on a double windrow and I was getting tired of riding the clutch in first so I let it go to town to see what would happen. 3 flakes in a 40" / 40 lb bale isn't good for selling or the auger feed! It did crank out a bunch of these before the feeder fork couldn't keep up to the auger, then the hay all piled up going into the chamber then backed up to the auger.

We also used a pair of MF's, a 224 and 228 which where their high capacity models. They are kind of a rough affair compared to the NH and JD.

Indydirtfarmer · Apr 12, 2005

( I have been told the following:
1. NH balers are the "best on the market" for durability and reliability.
2. JD balers make a "perfect" bale that is well liked by commercial hay buyers because they stack well.

My questions:
1. Is there any merit to the above statements?
2. What are some users opinions regarding using these balers behind a 65 pto HP machine?
3. If you could buy either, which one would you buy and why?

Thanks in advance.
Mark )

I've owned a couple New Holland Balers. (Got an older 273 "Hayliner" now in fact) I've owned several John Deere balers too. (Have a 336 and just bought a 348 in the shed)

New Holland makes a good baler. On the average, probably the second best small square baler on the market, just learn to like bananna shaped bales with anything more than 20 years old.

John Deere has (WITHOUT A DOUBT) the best balers on the market. That statement applies to any baler they ever made (in its day) Naturally, their old 14T balers won't compete with something 40 years newer, but nothing made today will compete with any Deere baler made today....

Deere balers are strong, reliable, efficient, make near perfect bales, will re-sell well if you want to trade up, and are easy as a trip to the local dealer to get parts for. Adjust one correctly, and it STAYS adjusted correctly.

Every since Deere built their first baler, they have led the market in SQUARE baler sales. New Holland sells more HAY EQUIPMENT than Deere, because of their extensive line of mowers, conditioners, bale wagons, ect....

And if you want a ROUND baler, just ask me about Vermeer. After owning just about every brand of round baler on the market, I finally bought a new Vermeer 5400 Rebel 2 summers past. Best in the business.....

slowzuki · Apr 12, 2005

I'm gonna append to what Indy said in that there were some terrible NH models, I think 68 and super 68 hayliner come to mind.

Never heard of a terrible JD model, just sometimes worn out machines.

Get someone who knows something to look over the knotters. Some of the pieces that can get sloppy can't be bushed to fix em. They need to be replaced. This only happens to real high use machines.

kensfarm · Apr 12, 2005

"Every since Deere built their first baler, they have led the market in SQUARE baler sales."

Sorry Indydirtfarmer.. though this is just U.S. & Canada.. when Case & NH combined.. the antitrust law case clearly showed NH as the market leader in 1998 on small square balers.

Four firms account for substantially all of the small square balers sold in the United States and Canada. In this already highly concentrated market, Fiat(NH) has a market share of about 47 percent and Case has a share of about 10 percent based on 1998 unit sales. Combining Case with Fiat would substantially increase concentration in the small square baler market.

slowzuki · Apr 12, 2005

Case and NH don't market the same balers. The Case balers are the old inline hesstons. I know the companies are owned by the same company now the two lines still compete with each other. This isn't supposed to be an argument about baler sales figures.

RickB · Apr 12, 2005

CaseIH and New Holland round and small square balers are basically identical and all are built in New Holland, PA. Case hasn't marketed HFI (Hesston) balers since the buyout/merger was fully implemented several years ago. Various Agco brands market Hesston products. The 72 thrower can be "shut off" by removing the drive belt from either the hydraulic pump or motor. The belt can be removed from the motor without tools. Bales will exit the thrower and fall directly on the ground. Not sure why anyone would want that, but that is the real answer to the question. A properly adjusted and operated Deere 348 OR NH 570 baler will make most any customer happy. IDF may like his Deeres, and that is OK, but the current NH balers take a back seat to no other brands.

slowzuki · Apr 12, 2005

Wow, I hadn't looked at their products in a while and I see what you mean. Why would they brand NH's as Case/IH? I haven't met anyone brand loyal to Case balers! A neighbour bought one of the relabeled Hesston a couple of years ago as brand new, must have been one of the last...

Shoving bales through a non running belt or roller thrower must impact bale tension? We drop all the time, cause it is the only way it has ever been done here /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Looking to change that. Small fields don't like throwers with wagons but the bigger ones aren't too bad.

( CaseIH and New Holland round and small square balers are basically identical and all are built in New Holland, PA. Case hasn't marketed HFI (Hesston) balers since the buyout/merger was fully implemented several years ago. Various Agco brands market Hesston products. The 72 thrower can be "shut off" by removing the drive belt from either the hydraulic pump or motor. The belt can be removed from the motor without tools. Bales will exit the thrower and fall directly on the ground. Not sure why anyone would want that, but that is the real answer to the question. A properly adjusted and operated Deere 348 OR NH 570 baler will make most any customer happy. IDF may like his Deeres, and that is OK, but the current NH balers take a back seat to no other brands. )

RickB · Apr 12, 2005

I suppose the idea is so CaseIH dealers can tap into the world's premier line of hay and forage tools. IH never had a baler worth a hoot until the Hesston stuff came along. Any concerns about bale tension can be remedied by removing the cotter pins from the upper belt frame support rods and placing one spring on each side below the frame rather than having both above it. I seriously doubt there would be impact on bale tension if that is NOT done beyond what a couple turns on the springs would counteract.

burnetma · Apr 12, 2005

Wow, looks like I touched on a popular subject! Thanks for all of the information. I feel better informed. It sounds like I am barking up the right tree. I will continue my search and will let you all know what I ended buying.

I am not sure if it matters, but I failed to mention that the primary use for the baler will be for baling mostly grass hay for our use. We will probably only try to sell 1000 - 2000 bales per year. I will probably lease a couple acres of the river bottom land across the street that is planted in alfalfa, just to have some alfalfa hay for sale to keep all customers happy.

Thanks again for all of the input. You guys are the best!

slowzuki · Apr 13, 2005

If only doing that many bales, why not look down the JD line a bit to the 347 or 346 models? The 348(and older brothers in the 3x8 series) are all expensive high production balers. These are sized for putting 20,000 bales a year through.

Ken

Indydirtfarmer · Apr 13, 2005

( If only doing that many bales, why not look down the JD line a bit to the 347 or 346 models? The 348(and older brothers in the 3x8 series) are all expensive high production balers. These are sized for putting 20,000 bales a year through.

Ken )

Just a thought... My personal favorite has been (since it's introduction) Deere's 336 baler. It's new enough to be "modern" old enough to be relatively inexpensive, and just about the best baler (for it's time) ever produced.

You're spot on about the 348 and simular models. High output/high horsepower requirements/high dollar baler. Not for the hobby farmer or small operator.

I do maybe 4000 small square bales (of hay) a season. I hardly ever use my 348 in that capacity. (MOST of our hay is done in round bales) We do as much as 5000 bales of wheat straw every summer. That all happens in a matter of a few days. That's what I bought the 348 for. It shines when you're stuffing as much material as possible through it.

For general baling purposes, at a more reasonable pace, the old 336 does quite well. (I've got an old 273 New Holland too. On more than one occasion, we've had all three balers running at one time during "straw season")

kensfarm · Apr 13, 2005

"This isn't supposed to be an argument about baler sales figures. "

No arguments Indydirtfarmer & slowzuki.. just showing an article that stated something different from what was said. I have no doubts about the success w/ using JD haying equipment. The knotters today that are on most small square balers haven't changed much since NH invented them some 60 years ago.

slowzuki · Apr 13, 2005

True, there are only 2 basic styles and both the JD and NH use the same style. I think it is called Raspe?

The old MF's use the other style.

green4710 · Apr 13, 2005

I have ran both types. Started out on a jd 346 and ended on a 347, both excellent balers. We stuffed as much hay as the auger would take until it started to slip a little, then backed off on the speed, always made great bales, and the big plus was you could see the hay feeding in, the bales dropping out the back, etc. The centerlines, I have limited experience with, but they take a lot of hay easily. Cant see to much going on, but also, seems if you feed them enough hay, and run it correctly, it works great. I'm buying a baler this year, and personally I'm going with a 347, or 348 Jd, or a 575 NH.