Skidding winch sizing? and Pat's Easy Change

[houska]

I'm thinking it's time to get a skidding winch for my tractor (42HP). Been mulling for a while, but used ones are rare around here, and I doubt new ones are going to get any cheaper anytime soon.

According to Wallenstein's website, the 8500lb-capacity FX85 would be the right size for our tractor. But my local dealer is suggesting I get the 11000lb FX110 instead. Wallenstein itself recommends it for a 50-90HP range, but the dealer is telling me it's OK for my tractor size and I'll appreciate the "heavier duty build", the extra power for pulling uphill and over/around rocks (our woodlot is on rocky Canadian shield), and the lower manual pull force needed on the clutch rope for equal pulling power.

Those arguments sorta make sense, but I'm conscious of the extra $, I will rarely pull logs >3500lbs actual weight, and too much power can be a curse (I have no desire to pop my front wheels up or damage my 3 pt hitch...). And the two local friends I have with 8500-9000lb winches (on slightly larger tractors) don't feel limited with their set-up. While I trust my dealer and his advice is usually spot on, I'm conscious he has only one FX85 left but three FX110s....

Anyone here run a "one size too large" skidding winch? Or bad idea? Thanks!

Finally, any issues using a skidding winch with Pat's Easy Change? I've heard people say not to use it with a Quick Hitch. I assume it's about forces on the 3PH arms?

(Around here, Wallensteins are the most available brand. I'm sure similar-sized Farmi or Norse models would do me just fine; but this capacity/spec issue would be the same).

 

[bullockcm]

I have a Kubota L4240, per Tractor Data the Branson 4225H specs out very similar. I have a FX85 that I have used a fair bit behind my tractor and also my brothers larger M7040. The FX85 seems to be a good fit with the L4240. I would think the larger FX110 could easily overpower your tractor if you weren't careful pulling heavy logs or when logs get hung up. I see your tractor also has a CAT I rear hitch, is the FX110 CAT I/II like the smaller FX85? For your size tractor all other things being equal I would choose the FX85.

Slight rant... I do wish I had bought earlier than I did and gone with the now discontinued FX90 which had some nice to have features that were dropped on the FX85 but I believe were carried forward on the FX110. Things like trays/boxes for chains and adjustable lower pulley. Not deal breakers by any means though.

 

[Gordon Gould]

One thing to keep in mind is that the winch does not supply the pulling power the tractor does. Putting on a bigger winch does not give you more pulling power unless your tractor has enough torque (HP) to provide it. The rating on a winch is from 2 parameters more or less. The first is mechanical robustness. How big it is and how heavy the construction is. The second is what force on the cable will make the clutch slip. That is the 8000 lb or 11,000 lb number. That number is not the force the winch provides it is just the clutch rating.

Personally I would never go with a winch rated for a bigger tractor. It is a loosing proposition. You don't gain any pull and it is bigger with higher lift arm mounting points so you can't lift it as high as you could the smaller winch. Plus it is wider and heaver all taking away from ground clearance and maneuverability.

gg

 

[mesupra]

Your dealer is a ******* nut job. Fx110 on a 42hp, I’ll take a guess that he doesn’t have a fx85 in stock.

I have a fx90, I ran it on my 40hp bobcat/kioti, it was way too much winch for the tractor. Having owned multiple tractors with multiple winches (fransgard, farmi, igland, norse, wallingstein) the fx85 is all you need and then some, you could even save a few bucks and look for the igland/Norse 3501 for around $3000 and be very happy! I do love my fx90.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

On my L3301 which is a little lighter than yours I run the FX85 logging winch.

Making single line pulls, tractor below pto rating at 2,000 I can lift the front end of the tractor (with loader and Wicked Root grapple which is much heavier than stock bucket) off the ground really easily. I have on occasion winched standing but leaning 70' Jack Pine trees out of the ground and away from the lean into a safe direction and with the cable attachment above tractor it can lift the front end..

So single line pulls can over power this size of tractor and will guess probably lift front end of yours as well. If I wanted to make a double line pull (adding 1 snatch block) overpowering the tractor would be very very easy as 1 snatch block will double the winches power. Although the main frame does dig into the ground very well when pulling ground level stuff from top pully.

Not sure why you would need bigger than FX85 and in the odd instance that you do you could buy a $100 snatch block and double pull at close to 17,000 pounds!. doubles pulling power very cheaply and easily.

edit: my FX85 has been flawless!! only thing I wish they would do is include a chainsaw holder and baskets for gloves/glasses/oil/small gas can or similar sized objects. I am making up my own trays for this.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Your dealer is a ******* nut job. Fx110 on a 42hp, I’ll take a guess that he doesn’t have a fx85 in stock.

I have a fx90, I ran it on my 40hp bobcat/kioti, it was way too much winch for the tractor. Having owned multiple tractors with multiple winches (fransgard, farmi, igland, norse, wallingstein) the fx85 is all you need and then some, you could even save a few bucks and look for the igland/Norse 3501 for around $3000 and be very happy! I do love my fx90.

I like your style mesupra. Easy to understand. Not clouded with a bunch of technical stuff that may or may not be understood.

gg

 

[JJT]

I'm running a 7000# pull Igland on an Kubota L3710, (37hp), anything bigger would get dangerous. I'm very happy with the Igland.

 

[Citydude]

I run a Farmi 351P on a quick hitch and used to have it on a Pats easy hitch. Absolutely no issues. But I rarely, if ever, max out the 6800# capacity of the winch.

I think your dealer is upselling you. Bigger is always better until you never use the capability you paid for.

 

[ericm979]

I got a Uniforest 35M (7700lb pull) for my 3725. For those who don't know Branson's line it is the same as the OP's 4225 except for 5 less hp from engine tuning. The next step up 45M with 9900 lbs seemed like it'd be too much. I've yet to pull any really big logs, only up to 20", and that was not straining either winch or tractor. I figure if I have really big logs I can cut them into lengths or double up the 230' cable if it's close enough.

 

[houska]

Thanks for the reactions, guys. Don't think dealer is (deliberately) upselling, though he might be focusing on the wrong factors.

I know a number of people running older FX90s (rated 9000 lbs) around here and finding them a good match on similar tractors to mine. And the FX110 is an up-rated successor to the FX90 with identical dimensions and weight, while the 85 is the successor to the 65. Weight-wise (and 3ph lift capacity-wise), my 42HP Branson is more like a 54-60-ish HP Kubota, and I think pure PTO HP is rarely the limiting factor on a winch pull. So the FX110 is not as absurd as it sounds. Though still very likely overkill (as you guys have confirmed).

Meanwhile I'm also contemplating a cheaper Norse 450 that geometry-wise (and spec wise) is intermediate between the Wallensteins, though it would be a longer drive to pick it up. But I like its bend-away blade and the fact the blade is wider. More lateral stability, and can do some light grading and snow moving without having to mount my box blade instead. Not primary use of course, but multitasking attachments are great when you're 2 miles away from your storage area.

 

[Gordon Gould]

Well you asked the question and nobody seems to agrees with your thinking on the 110. Do what you want though it's a what makes the world go around.

gg

 

[houska]

Well you asked the question and nobody seems to agrees with your thinking on the 110. Do what you want though it's a what makes the world go around.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your and others' input and am hearing it loud and clear. But seems you're a "speak plainly and get the answer quickly" kind of guy, and I'm more a "first understand why sensible people disagree" person. It's not just the dealer, but also a local experienced forester (with a 52 HP) saying "get the 110 if you can't get a 90".

I'm now looking at a Norse 450, actually prompted by @mesupra's comment. Regardless, one of the things crystal clear from this thread is that safety will stop me from actually going near the nominal pull rating before actual tractor power will, whether it says 8500, 9000, 10000, or 11000 on the label.

 

[arrow]

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your and others' input and am hearing it loud and clear. But seems you're a "speak plainly and get the answer quickly" kind of guy, and I'm more a "first understand why sensible people disagree" person. It's not just the dealer, but also a local experienced forester (with a 52 HP) saying "get the 110 if you can't get a 90".

I'm now looking at a Norse 450, actually prompted by @mesupra's comment. Regardless, one of the things crystal clear from this thread is that safety will stop me from actually going near the nominal pull rating before actual tractor power will, whether it says 8500, 9000, 10000, or 11000 on the label.

That's a major point to this forum. Some are more direct than others. Some get into great detail and some like to go on and on.
In the end, it helps solidify directional course for any type op...one way.... or another.

 

[arrow]

Here's a Norse in action: watch

 

[WranglerX]

Those arguments sorta make sense, but I'm conscious of the extra $, I will rarely pull logs >3500lbs actual weight, and too much power can be a curse (I have no desire to pop my front wheels up or damage my 3 pt hitch...). And the two local friends I have with 8500-9000lb winches (on slightly larger tractors) don't feel limited with their set-up. While I trust my dealer and his advice is usually spot on, I'm conscious he has only one FX85 left but three FX110s....

I'm thinking he needs to reduce his inventory of FX110s....

 

[fruitcakesa]

I have a Norse 450 on my 60HP M6040 and IMHO it is sized right.

 

[Sawyer Rob]

First of all, 42hp will be enough to run a FX110, my FX90 uses 25pto max.

Secondly, I don't see how having a stronger winch is dangerous, UNLESS it's owned by a complete moron, who can't figure out that he needs to let go of the rope when something starts going wrong!

Third, thinking that you won't pull "that" heavy of a log, doesn't take into account the extra pull small snags, dirt clods, hills ect.. add to the pull.

Having said all of that, I think you would be happy with an FX85 but I would NOT be getting anything smaller!

SR

 

[dennis103]

I have a Norse 450 on my Gr L6060. I bought the Norse for close to what used winches were going for. I'm a week end warrior in the woods not making a living with it. It has been a good winch for me. I have a quick attach and it won't work on the winch. I assumed they did that on purpose, because they didn't feel it was safe? Probably most winches can tip your tractor over if you just pull the rope and don't use common sense and caution. Especially when pulling that really big log or not watching when it gets caught up on something. Working in the woods is not the safest sport. A man needs to pay attention with everything he does.

 

[houska]

Well, I got myself a Norse 450, for less money that the Wallenstein FX85. Thanks for all the advice here, in particular @mesupra 's mention of the Igland 3501 which sent me off that direction. Iglands are more expensive than the corresponding Norses around here. And while a Norse 350 might have been sufficient, none were in stock around here and I wanted to check the PTO angle wouldn't be too low. Since a (different) dealer gave me a really good price on the 450, I'm happy.

Due to blizzard clean-up taking longer, I haven't cut the PTO shaft yet, much less pulled a log (everything's under 18" of snow).

Quick question to Norse/Igland owners. The winch's own PTO connection seems to be some weird rubber coated knob. All my other implements have fluted metal PTO connections, like the tractor. Am I supposed to just force that on and it's some sort of friction mount to the PTO shaft (which is the usual fluted thing), or is the rubber some protective cap I need to remove, with a normal connection underneath. The pic looks nice and sunny, but there was a cold wind blowing and I knew I couldn't finish today, so after an initial "that's weird" I didn't investigate futher....

 

[Citydude]

Well, I got myself a Norse 450, for less money that the Wallenstein FX85. Thanks for all the advice here, in particular @mesupra 's mention of the Igland 3501 which sent me off that direction. Iglands are more expensive than the corresponding Norses around here. And while a Norse 350 might have been sufficient, none were in stock around here and I wanted to check the PTO angle wouldn't be too low. Since a (different) dealer gave me a really good price on the 450, I'm happy.

Due to blizzard clean-up taking longer, I haven't cut the PTO shaft yet, much less pulled a log (everything's under 18" of snow).

Quick question to Norse/Igland owners. The winch's own PTO connection seems to be some weird rubber coated knob. All my other implements have fluted metal PTO connections, like the tractor. Am I supposed to just force that on and it's some sort of friction mount to the PTO shaft (which is the usual fluted thing), or is the rubber some protective cap I need to remove, with a normal connection underneath. The pic looks nice and sunny, but there was a cold wind blowing and I knew I couldn't finish today, so after an initial "that's weird" I didn't investigate futher....

It's a protective cap.