Sizing hydraulics correctly

[DaveOmak]

I'm contemplating converting my 14T to hydraulics. I KNOW NOTHING about hydraulilcs. I searched the threads and probably used the wrong search terms to find what I thought I was looking for. I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction.
I have a '53 Jubilee. It does not have a live pto. Near as I can tell, the 14t needs 18 hp or so to run at 540 rpm. I read somewhere about installing a pump, where the hand-crank inserts on the Jubilee. Somehow I have to figure engine RPM-Pump cu in-gpm flow-HP required at the baler-motor at the baler/cu in required/gpm required/rpm=H.P. to bale hay? (or something like that). I know I need help. Now you know I need help. What kind on help is debatable!
Appreciate some direction. Dave

 

[tommu56]

my next door neighbor had and old jubilee with a loader the pump was driven like you describe a drive shaft out of the engine crankshaft pulley to pump mounted in the frame in front end.

You would need a tank some were and hose and valves on tractor.

the engine runs faster than the 540 pto speed (I'm not sure what the engine speed is there wasn't a functioning tac on his). and that will have to be calculated in the cubic inches per rpm.

maybe JJ can chime in .

tom

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Dave,

First off, welcome to TBN. Honestly, given your experience and what you would like to do, I would seek out someone near you with some knowledge that would lend you a hand. One hose in the wrong place and you will grenade your new pump. Sure, we can help you, but your best bet is finding someone that can come to your tractor and give you a hand. I surely do not mean to discourage you and please don't take it that way, but you are taking on quite a task for the little experience you have. Good luck. Andy.

 

[kennyd]

Welcome to TBN Dave

I will second WCH's recommendation. I just did a quick calculation and to get a pump and a motor that put's out 18HP is going to take a lot of input HP as well. You will also need large hose, a big tank and a valve. To put it all together you are looking at $1000 easy...

 

[DaveOmak]

Thanks for the reply's. As was written somewhere recently? , "Everyday you don't learn something is a day wasted!"
I am an advocate of buying the tools you need to do a job. Do some book learnin' and "Every day you learn something is a day that don't count toward your days here on earth."
I could hire someone and empty my pocket. I could learn something and fill my head with knowledge.
My pockets are empty and so is my head.
I need to have some direction as to where to look. I don't know the correct words to use a search engine to find what I need to know. If you know of a web site that might get me started, you willl have given me a great start. Consider yourself Dave's new mentor. Everyone has or has had a mentor somewhere in time.
I'm 61 and still trying to learn. I've been farming for 4 years. Long stretch from a factory. Doin' my best.

 

[J_J]

Hi Dave,

You see similar pump situations on garbage trucks. What I would envision, would be an adapter to hook up to a pump sized for the HP, which you say is 18. Now the pump will be running at the rpm pf the engine, so if the engine is running at say 2500 rpm, that will run a pump , putting out 9 GPM, at 3000 psi. would require a pump with a cu in displacement of .8 cu in. Then you need a valve with as many functions as you want, and hoses to go where ever, and something to hook them to.

You seem determined, so ask the questions and we will try and answer. There are a lot of smart people on here willing to help. Sharing knowledge is a blessing in itself. No reason to keep it all locked up.

 

[DaveOmak]

J J Thanks,
If I can use your numbers, does 9 gpm @ 3000 psi equal 18 hp? If that is a fair assumption, then I would size the motor on the baler to run say at approx 450 rpm.
(2500 motor rpm/450 baler rpm X .8 pump ci = 4.444 motor ci on the baler)
Would I need 18 gpm @ 1500 psi to also equal 18 hp?
Maybe I am lost but at least now you know where I am starting from.

 

[kennyd]

Dave, What is your max budget for this project? I am re-thinking the estimate I made earlier is way low....

Anyway-here is a link to some great calculators to do some figuring.

Baum Hydraulics

 

[J_J]

J J Thanks,
If I can use your numbers, does 9 GPM @ 3000 psi equal 18 hp? If that is a fair assumption, then I would size the motor on the baler to run say at approx 450 rpm.
(2500 motor rpm/450 baler rpm X .8 pump ci = 4.444 motor ci on the baler)
Would I need 18 GPM @ 1500 psi to also equal 18 hp?
Maybe I am lost but at least now you know where I am starting from.

If your pump is a 3000 psi , then the motor would have to be 3000

Pump

HP required--18
GPM---------9
engine rpm---2500
pump disp---.8 cu in

Motor = 3000 psi

flow---------9 GPM
motor cu in--4.6
RPM---------450
motor torque-1061 or 88.75 ft lbs

I believe this is all correct.

 

[DaveOmak]

J J Thanks again. Some of this is making sense to me now. I will look for parts, and more calculations to determine the feasibility of this project. If it looks do-able, I will be back with questions like, (How do I hook it all up to the front of the engine?) etc. We have probably covered the expensive part for now. Sincerely, Dave

 

[kennyd]

Dave, Go to this site:
Baum Hydraulics

There is boatloads of info there...Especially the "How to select a pump and cylinder"

 

[GuglioLS]

.......SNIP......SNIP....... If it looks do-able, I will be back with questions like, (How do I hook it all up to the front of the engine?) etc.......SNIP.....SNIP...., Dave

Dave, what you want to do is do-able. I too have a '53 Jubilee and have done pretty much exactly what you are wanting. To drive the pump off the front pulley, do some searching on the net to find the 4 bolt splined coupler that bolts up to the crank shaft pulley. The adapter has a female splined receiver that accepts a male splined shaft, which in turn is coupled to a pump. A bracket will have to be fashioned to mount the pump and of course you'll need a tank for a hydraulic reservoir, I suggest about 5 - 8 gallons, thats what I have and it's worked for nearly 25 years without a problem. Here are some pictures of my setup in hopes it might help in some way:



It puts out about 12 GPM @ 2100 RPM, I have the pressure relief set to 2000 PSI. A strong Jubilee engine can put out about 32 - 35 HP and the RPM range at the front pulley is in the neighborhood of 900 @ idle and 2100 @ full throttle. With that pump I can operate a full function front end loader and a back hoe no problem.

Larry

 

[GuglioLS]

A quick search and here's the front pulley hydraulic pump coupling hub for a Jubliee:

Yesterdays Tractors Co.

Once the web site opens, Search (CTRL + F) for part# 290421


Larry

 

[DaveOmak]

Larry, Thank you for the part # and the pictures. They help alot. Does the pump run whenever the engine runs or is there a clutch? I read somewhere a guy installed a 12v clutch to disengage the pump. From your pictures I could have the pump slide on a track to engage and disengage the pump to the coupler. Does that make sense? My neighbor gave me a Cross pump. Series 50 #300089. I checked Cross and can't figure out the gpm. Again thanks. The pictures are very informative. I am grateful for the knowledge you all have and the help I am getting.

Dave

 

[IH Steve]

Found this on "Walts Tractor Parts". May look into doing the same thing for my IH 300 Utility.

Steve



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

UF84051 Front Mounted Hydraulic Pump
Fits Many Models
14GPM at 2000RPM
3/4" Round Keyed Shaft
1 inch and 3/4 inch port size
Replaces number 192504

Price: $398.16

 

[J_J]

Larry, Thank you for the part # and the pictures. They help alot. Does the pump run whenever the engine runs or is there a clutch? I read somewhere a guy installed a 12v clutch to disengage the pump. From your pictures I could have the pump slide on a track to engage and disengage the pump to the coupler. Does that make sense? My neighbor gave me a Cross pump. Series 50 #300089. I checked Cross and can't figure out the gpm. Again thanks. The pictures are very informative. I am grateful for the knowledge you all have and the help I am getting.

Dave

These are clutch pumps, all ready to go, find a place to mount it, add hoses, relief valve, hyd reservoir, control valve, and 12 v turns it on and off.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009092815305680&catname=hydraulic&keyword=HPCP

 

[IH Steve]

J.J.,
I guess if one of these 12v pumps were used to only operate an FEL and not in use and both valves for the FEL were centered, would this prevent the cyl. from bleeding down? Or would one need some sort of back pressure valve? I guess you could always just flip the swith and raise the loader a bit if using the tractor but not the loader.

Steve

 

[J_J]

J.J.,
I guess if one of these 12v pumps were used to only operate an FEL and not in use and both valves for the FEL were centered, would this prevent the cyl. from bleeding down? Or would one need some sort of back pressure valve? I guess you could always just flip the switch and raise the loader a bit if using the tractor but not the loader.

Steve

You would need some kind of control valve for any hydraulics function. Primarily because you don't want to start up anything with a hydraulic load on it. Keep in mind, that there is no or little pressure until a motor, cylinder is activated. The fluid is just making a loop from output through valves, to tank, and back to input. When fluid is injected in a circuit, and the valve closes, the fluid in the circuit is retained in that circuit, therefore the holding ability of the cylinder circuit on a loader. Most loaders will leak down, sometimes with engine running.

 

[GuglioLS]

Larry, Thank you for the part # and the pictures. They help alot. Does the pump run whenever the engine runs or is there a clutch? ........SNIP.........SNIP.....
Dave

Your welcome Dave,
My pump runs all the time, never had a lick of trouble. Starting the engine is not an issue as it's never under load until a valve is actuated (just like any normal tractor hydraulic circuit). If it were me I would keep it simple and at the lowest possible cost. 12 volt clutch pumps add cost (almost double) selection is limited and will most likely complicate installation especially on a Ford Jubilee. The Jubilee is designed to have that hub (the one I linked to) installed with a splined shaft then coupled to a direct drive pump. It's my understanding you want to power a PTO device via a hydraulic motor. A direct drive pump with a detented motor control spool valve is going to be the most efficient method (IMHO). Add a Motor with a PTO output shaft and you have what I think you are wanting. I suggest a 1.54 cu/in /rev displacement pump which will give ~ 12 GPM @ 1800 engine RPM and a 4.95 cu/in/rev displacement motor which will result in ~ 540 RPM with the engine / pump turning at 1800 RPM.


Suggested Pump: CLICK HERE

Suggested Motor: CLICK HERE

Larry