Should we upgrade for 5 HP? Same model same options ... Hmmmm....

[shooterdon]

Don,

About a year ago I was talking to some folks here about the tractor after I had just purchased it and commented on what others thought were important to their choice in buying tractors.

A gentleman chimed in that he had purchased a 40hp unit that he used from time to time on his property for minor stuff... very minor.

Hearing that was unsettling for me. After all, I was - for the previous 2 years, all about studying how I would best fulfill everything that I could possibly use the tractor for and making determinations to skip this or add that based on what I was learning about as a newbie never owning anything like this ... a lot of that came from right here.

But this gentleman's response after I questioned the fact that he had spent so much money on something that he used so very little. Because that was what I had been working on in my head for the last 2 years...this Gentleman, so very wise and obviously much more a gentleman than I replied:

"Don, when you get to be a certain age, its not the cost. Its not how much you use it, maybe its not the color or the HP... but maybe it's having it when you want it, to do or not do whatever it is you want ... Life is short, being happy is imperative."

Now those may not be the exact words, but that's exactly what I gained from that short but wise conversation.

That concept my friend will never leave my side, and it came from this forum... awesome!!!

When I traded my 24 HP JD 855 i came close to getting the 35 HP LS 3100 series machine. At the time, I was in my late 60's and knew this would be my last tractor. For a few thousand more I decided to go with the bigger 4100 series and got the 40 HP model. In my case, I wanted a SSQA. more tractor lift capacity and a cab. The only thing I need PTO power for is snow blowing so my needs are different than yours.

The point of my original post is trading for another 5 HP does not make a lot of sense to me. I do not believe adding 5 HP is a game changer, but I could be wrong. If I was not happy with what I have (as you are), I would size the tractor for what it needs to do and add a bit more to that specification. In my case, 40 HP engine (34 PTO HP), if i wanted more HP for the blower, I would go with the 55 HP engine with 47 PTO HP. Buy once cry once.

Now, to be honest, my HP is at the low end of what I need but I deal with it. First pass I go a bit slower when we get a heavy dump of snow. On subsequent passes I can keep going slow or take a 2/3 swath. If we were going to get 24" of snow, I would not wait for it to stop snowing and attack it all at one go. Not a big deal for me to go out 3 times during a once in a decade event to deal with a blizzard.

Grass is even easier to deal with, unless you are gone for weeks...months?? Take partial cuts or do it more frequently and reduce the load on the brush hog.

Just checked your specs and it seems a 60" BH would be another option. A good one is less than $2000 and you could use it when the grass is out of control. Same as a 17% increase in power. If you have a lot of grass to cut, you can keep your 72" for normal use. A lot less money than trading your Kubota unless you need a bigger machine of other uses.

60 Inch XTreme Duty Rotary Brush Cutter

The 60 Inch XTreme Duty Rotary Brush Cutter with 45 HP Gearbox and shear bolt PTO shaft, 60' cut, 66' wide, standard front and rear shielding, Free Shipping

www.everythingattachments.com

 

[pokey1416]

I was in your place awhile ago albeit one model up, with my GL4060. It was the disappointment in loader lift capacity and loader lift height. I thought about upgrading and in the end decided I have personalized my tractor so much that I don't want to start over - so I load a little less in the bucket and order up smaller dump trucks (lower sides). I did use this "excuse" with the mrs. though and bought a dump trailer since I couldn't get over the sides of the dump trucks!!!!

 

[DonaldP]

When I traded my 24 HP JD 855 i came close to getting the 35 HP LS 3100 series machine. At the time, I was in my late 60's and knew this would be my last tractor. For a few thousand more I decided to go with the bigger 4100 series and got the 40 HP model. In my case, I wanted a SSQA. more tractor lift capacity and a cab. The only thing I need PTO power for is snow blowing so my needs are different than yours.

The point of my original post is trading for another 5 HP does not make a lot of sense to me. I do not believe adding 5 HP is a game changer, but I could be wrong. If I was not happy with what I have (as you are), I would size the tractor for what it needs to do and add a bit more to that specification. In my case, 40 HP engine (34 PTO HP), if i wanted more HP for the blower, I would go with the 55 HP engine with 47 PTO HP. Buy once cry once.

Now, to be honest, my HP is at the low end of what I need but I deal with it. First pass I go a bit slower when we get a heavy dump of snow. On subsequent passes I can keep going slow or take a 2/3 swath. If we were going to get 24" of snow, I would not wait for it to stop snowing and attack it all at one go. Not a big deal for me to go out 3 times during a once in a decade event to deal with a blizzard.

Grass is even easier to deal with, unless you are gone for weeks...months?? Take partial cuts or do it more frequently and reduce the load on the brush hog.

Just checked your specs and it seems a 60" BH would be another option. A good one is less than $2000 and you could use it when the grass is out of control. Same as a 17% increase in power. If you have a lot of grass to cut, you can keep your 72" for normal use. A lot less money than trading your Kubota unless you need a bigger machine of other uses.

60 Inch XTreme Duty Rotary Brush Cutter

The 60 Inch XTreme Duty Rotary Brush Cutter with 45 HP Gearbox and shear bolt PTO shaft, 60' cut, 66' wide, standard front and rear shielding, Free Shipping

www.everythingattachments.com

I’m still giggling to myself (buy once cry once!”)

ok.. so it’s not to myself,I am laughing loud and the folks around me at work are thinking I’m Scrooge after his visits with the ghosts, or I just got a Christmas bonus!

 

[DonaldP]

This brings up a recurring topic regarding HST drive tractors. The foot pedal acts like the gas pedal in a car, but is is NOT the same thing. In a car, the accelerator raises engine rpm to go faster; the foot pedal in a conventional HST tractor doesn't change engine speed but does change the "gear ratio" of the transmission to produce faster ground speed. As with any transmission, gear or hydraulic when you have more speed there is less pulling power. So, when you're heading up the hill and the engine starts to work harder, keeping the HST pedal to the floor is exactly backwards of what to do. You want to BACK OFF the foot pedal some, bringing the HST into a "lower gear" so the engine does't need to work as hard getting up the hill. I haven't run the advanced HST's, such as what you have, but suppose that when the Auto throttle has raised the engine throttle all the way, it's still up you to realize that backing off the foot pedal and slowing down a bit is the best way to get up the hill, that is if you know what you are doing.

If you are not doing it that way, I would seriously suggest a little time spent perfecting your driving technique before throwing money at the situation by replacing the tractor.

This is a perfect example to experiment with!!!

From my past experience I can say this...

When in that specific situation, pushing the pedal to the floor is like milking a cow that's already been milked... nothing happens.

Letting off the gas does not provide a miracle... nor any change in engine or transmission speed /ratio to spur any change in speed or hp to the wheels.

I could let off and re-apply the pedal incrementally ... which puts me in the exact same place as I was before.

The HST does not provide automatic downshifting or upshifting of the transmission... it does provide for the same low/high shift options which are available in any gear (L,M,H). But the transmission will not auto shift down to a lower gear as a car might in order to provide more torque at a slower speed, or shift up to provide more speed at a higher speed of the drivetrain.

The key takeaway is this... on an HST transmission you have 3 speeds... L, M, H. You also have a range selector that subdivides those 3 ranges into an additional Low and Hight for each range from L, M, H.

when you let off the gas pedal in M, the transmission does not automatically slip into a lower gear providing more speed to the engine and therefore more torque... what it does do is provide you with either a "fast" or "Slow" for the range you are currently in.

if you are bogging down while in Med you have options...

If you are in medium and in Fast speed, you can shift down into slow speed which will gain you some HP ot torque.



It will stay in whatever gear you have it (L,M,H) with the additional two speed option on top of that (which basically provides 6 speeds in all or 2 - speeds in each of the L,M, H transmission locations.

 

[shooterdon]

This is a perfect example to experiment with!!!

From my past experience I can say this...

When in that specific situation, pushing the pedal to the floor is like milking a cow that's already been milked... nothing happens.

Letting off the gas does not provide a miracle... nor any change in engine or transmission speed /ratio to spur any change in speed or hp to the wheels.

I could let off and re-apply the pedal incrementally ... which puts me in the exact same place as I was before.

The HST does not provide automatic downshifting or upshifting of the transmission... it does provide for the same low/high shift options which are available in any gear (L,M,H). But the transmission will not auto shift down to a lower gear as a car might in order to provide more torque at a slower speed, or shift up to provide more speed at a higher speed of the drivetrain.

The key takeaway is this... on an HST transmission you have 3 speeds... L, M, H. You also have a range selector that subdivides those 3 ranges into an additional Low and Hight for each range from L, M, H.

when you let off the gas pedal in M, the transmission does not automatically slip into a lower gear providing more speed to the engine and therefore more torque... what it does do is provide you with either a "fast" or "Slow" for the range you are currently in.

if you are bogging down while in Med you have options...

If you are in medium and in Fast speed, you can shift down into slow speed which will gain you some HP ot torque.



It will stay in whatever gear you have it (L,M,H) with the additional two speed option on top of that (which basically provides 6 speeds in all or 2 - speeds in each of the L,M, H transmission locations.

My machine is much simpler...only three ranges. I do almost all my work in range 2. If the tractor starts to bog down, I need to stop and shift to range 1.

I also have mostly flat land so that helps when grading and pulling a heavy cut.

After reading your post I am even more convinced adding 5hp is not going to help you much. If you are bogging downing low range, you are way under powered.

One last suggestion. See if you can rent or borrow a tractor with 5 more HP and see how it performs. Borrowing a 5 ft BH might give you another data point.

On a bright note, you are going to get top dollar for the machine you have if you trade up. It was on my short list for a while.

Good luck.

 

[jeff9366]

DonaldP: Kindly comment on Post #19 and answer the tire question posed.

 

[Grandad4]

Most Grand L Kubota tractors have auto throttle advance and stall guard features that minimize this problem.

However the OP stated that he was only using the Auto-Throttle Advance feature. Is stall guard automatically engaged with Auto Throttle? If auto- throttle is only advancing engine rpm, it can only do so much when horsepower is limited.

Being and old relic, I operated two Kubota HST's for more than 15 years, but they predated HST+, so my HST+ knowledge is totally hearsay.

 

[Grandad4]

when you let off the gas pedal in M, the transmission does not automatically slip into a lower gear providing more speed to the engine and therefore more torque... what it does do is provide you with either a "fast" or "Slow" for the range you are currently in.

Actually it does, but you're not noticing it. Here's an experiment to try to prove it to yourself. Use L or M, not H. Turn off the Auto Throttle. Put the engine at a comfortable rpm (1800-2000 rpm, maybe?), with the hand throttle. Step on the "gas pedal" a little bit. The tractor will move ahead slowly, engine rpm will remain constant. Press a little harder on the pedal and the tractor will speed up, but the engine will still be running at the same rpm.

Now, think about what just happened. If the engine stays at the same rpm, how is it that you can adjust your ground speed with the foot pedal? Obviously something else is changing and it is within the HST transmission, where there is the hydraulic equivalent of changing the gear ratios going on.

That HST+ is an impressive bit of kit because it combines engine speed, actual gears, hydraulics and electronics to give the operator so many options. But the point still stands that an HST transmission can deliver more grunt when you ask it to deliver a slow ground speed.

Stepping down from my soapbox, I do think more power would improve your situation, and agree with others suggesting something above 40hp would be optimal. I ran a 46 hp Grand L for many years and it never really worked hard running a 6 ft. cutter through anything I could drive over, irrespective of slope.

Whether it makes financial sense at this point to replace your 35 hp setup is a whole different issue that only you can determine. Best of luck figuring this out!

 

[streamin]

the only opinion I have is based on my past experience for what it's worth. I went fro a L3230 to L5030, basically 20hp upgrade. For the amount of difference I noticed I really DON'T think you will notice a 5 Hp difference. But when forced to sell for financial reasons, I went with Mahindra for a couple reasons (but not relevant here). Still stuck with 50hp, was a good size for my needs as may be yours...

 

[DonaldP]

This brings up a recurring topic regarding HST drive tractors. The foot pedal acts like the gas pedal in a car, but is is NOT the same thing. In a car, the accelerator raises engine rpm to go faster; the foot pedal in a conventional HST tractor doesn't change engine speed but does change the "gear ratio" of the transmission to produce faster ground speed. As with any transmission, gear or hydraulic when you have more speed there is less pulling power. So, when you're heading up the hill and the engine starts to work harder, keeping the HST pedal to the floor is exactly backwards of what to do. You want to BACK OFF the foot pedal some, bringing the HST into a "lower gear" so the engine does't need to work as hard getting up the hill. I haven't run the advanced HST's, such as what you have, but suppose that when the Auto throttle has raised the engine throttle all the way, it's still up you to realize that backing off the foot pedal and slowing down a bit is the best way to get up the hill, that is if you know what you are doing.

If you are not doing it that way, I would seriously suggest a little time spent perfecting your driving technique before throwing money at the situation by replacing the tractor.

 

[DonaldP]

YES!!!

This is probably what I needed to hear. I need to try a couple of things while mowing.

So in fact with the Auto-Throttle on the advanced HST Grand L model, when you press the pedal, the engine RPM increases just as it does in a car... Now what's perplexing me is this.....

With the HST in the Grand L, I choose what gear I'm in. L, M, or H.

From what I feel and know of the transmission in action, that's it, period. There is nothing happening in the background that can change what gear I'm in.

It does not downshift, or upshift automatically ... It doesn't change to a different power ratio via the rear end or the transmission in any format, whether I let off the pedal or not. Which is a paradigm shift (no pun intended) for understanding how these things might operate differently than older HST types. But I'm not sure. I only have my experience here.

BUT... I do have an alternative that I can use and that's the Fast-Slow Selector that's available at the pull of a switch (located next to the steering column where the turn signal might generally be) in each of the 3 speed ranges (L,M,H).

It seems I'm always in Fast, but can shift into Slow if I need additional torque at the wheels for a moment, or longer if I need to muscle something about or I'm heading up an incline.

I don't have to stop to change from Slow to Fast or vice-versa. Its on the fly as it seems to be only hydraulically managed and not a gearing change.

Important point : *** You know, I have not tried to move into slow setting to harness additional torque while mowing... ***

But I have done this when traveling on the highway at max speed (17 mph) in High range and then heading up a hill. The engine does bog down under the load of the hill in High Speed, so when the engine/trans drops to about 8mph going up the hill (with the pedal to the floor), I shift into Slow... and when I do that the engine revs up a bit, and the transmission kicks into more power, taking me up the hill without loosing much more speed. Once I near the top, I kick it back into Fast, and the engine/Trans has the ability to gain speed as I crest the hill and I'm back to 17mph.

So that basically the description of how I feel and see that HST working in an L series using Auto-Throttle.

 

[Fallon]

There is an auto-shift function in there somewhere along with auto-throttle I'm pretty certain. I fiddled with the auto throttle stuff on my L4060hstc but went back to manual throttle & shift a few years ago. My L4060 barely has enough HP for me. I live in Colorado so have a 20% HP tax due to lack of oxygen. So basically a L3560 worth of HP. It's fine for ground engaging work. But I do s lot of mowing with a big flail & a lot of roading. Both of those tap out the machine.

I paid it off this month after 5 years. Was thinking about upgrading to a L6060 for an extra 20hp (and the bigger loader), but think I like no payments better for now. It would be months to get a machine, but it's not like I don't have a good one to get me until then if I did order one.

I've turned off most of the HST+ functions & rarely use cruise control. I'm a gadget nerd, but don't find them actually that useful. Except for the 2 speed HST. That's the main reason I'm with a Kubota instead of something else. Not needing to shift the clunky 3 speed crash box is worth it.

 

[bdhsfz6]

There is an auto-shift function in there somewhere along with auto-throttle I'm pretty certain. I fiddled with the auto throttle stuff on my L4060hstc but went back to manual throttle & shift a few years ago. My L4060 barely has enough HP for me. I live in Colorado so have a 20% HP tax due to lack of oxygen. So basically a L3560 worth of HP. It's fine for ground engaging work. But I do s lot of mowing with a big flail & a lot of roading. Both of those tap out the machine.

I paid it off this month after 5 years. Was thinking about upgrading to a L6060 for an extra 20hp (and the bigger loader), but think I like no payments better for now. It would be months to get a machine, but it's not like I don't have a good one to get me until then if I did order one.

I've turned off most of the HST+ functions & rarely use cruise control. I'm a gadget nerd, but don't find them actually that useful. Except for the 2 speed HST. That's the main reason I'm with a Kubota instead of something else. Not needing to shift the clunky 3 speed crash box is worth it.

You'll gain more than 20HP at your altitude Fallon since the L6060 is turbocharged and partially compensates for the thinner air.

I agree though, a new payment book is a big turn off.

 

[DonaldP]

1. The cab option raises the center-of-gravity.

2. If you have liquid filled tires or wheel weights discard them. The cab weight will provide ample traction without the wheel weight. There is only so much 35-horsepower can do.

3. The L3560 has adjustable rear tire spreads with both R1 and R4 tires. Increase the wheel spread of your rear wheels 4" to 6" for increased stability. Rear wheel width is more important for increasing operating stability than ballasted rear tires.

If instability is a real concern, and mowing is your key application, trade in the Kubota for a Toro Ventrac.

VENTRAC VIDEOS: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Ventrac

TRACTOR STABILITY: Prospective purchase for the mountains.




On the L3560 I had issues with the tire hitting the front Lower Loader Mount when turning and under load.

What tires are on the front of the L3560? Are the tires a factory option?
Are existing front tires correctly inflated?

These are R4 tires…factory options.

I think you are correct with the 35hp unit being capable of only doing so much, but across the board it has delivered on “EVERY” task I’ve tossed at it. Plus it’s weight is manageable and moving into the 4060 will add about 300#…. I’m not an aggressive farmer and use the L3560 TLB mostly for excavation, utility, and mowing.

And you make a great point with tire inflation but the tires are properly inflated.

You are right, I have extended the wheels out as far as they will go to gain a much wider stance, “footprint” if you will and that has saved me in a few tight spots while lifting full firewood totes in tight spaces requiring tight turning (with load, on a slope).

Although there has not been a true answer from Kubota as to “why” this FEL Bracket to tire contact is happening, I believe an upcoming video will lay that out.

For other owners of the L3560 open station or cab models, hopefully this video and information will prevent them from heading down into the rabbit hole of Kubota’s technical inadequacies in this arena.

I’m thinking there are many folks out there that are shocked to hear that statement, but this rests squarely on Kubota’s mismanagement of their engineering staff, and their service and dealership network that I fear is losing ground to other more competitive manufactures.

I will be uploading new video in a few weeks detailing the exact issue, followed up with the corrective actions taken by Kubota, their warranty rep, along with the help and support of Kubota’s engineering staff. All done at great cost to them and to my equipment … and ending in the same situation recurring after those repairs.

I’ll update that link as soon as it’s available. Until then this is a link to various issues found at pickup after that service, including a botched hood replacement issue where the hood was replaced with a factory fresh hood, and then repainted for some unknown reason, with the dealership stating that it wasn’t ever painted in their possession and that any overspray found inside the engine compartment (as seen in this video on this tractor) was intentionally applied by me for some unknown reason… (to a tractor with less than 250 hours).

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt_slIUYrKqLtswxhFCeYpxAJricr-KfW

 

[3gunr]

For reference, I’m using a 72” cutter on my 60hp tractor.

I use a 72 in finish mower and brush cutter on a 38 hp tractor no problem at all and i cut tall heavy grass and brush,

 

[DonaldP]

I use a 72 in finish mower and brush cutter on a 38 hp tractor no problem at all and i cut tall heavy grass and brush,

That's great to know... I do understand that AC can detract from that HP...

 

[Fallon]

That's great to know... I do understand that AC can detract from that HP...

Definitely. Probably a couple HP tapped to run AC. 1-3 I'd guess.

 

[richriddle]

If you own a good tractor, then 5HP doesn't seem to offer an incentive to "upgrade."

I own 27HP Yanmar tractors and recently went through looking for a Kubota 37+ HP tractor and eliminated the L3560 and L4060 models because owners frequently mentioned the lack of power in both models on hills. It's up to you, but with all the stories about power issues relating to the L3560 and L4060 models, Kubota makes better options for tractor models.

The L4760 and L5060 models seem to offer more power. Good luck in your decision.

 

[3gunr]

Several of your posts seem to suggest that you run between 1500 and 1800 rpm , if that is true then you should be running at much higher rpms , especially for mowing

 

[CobyRupert]

Several of your posts seem to suggest that you run between 1500 and 1800 rpm , if that is true then you should be running at much higher rpms , especially for mowing

His post also suggests that when he needs more torque, like when going up a hill, he has the pedal mashed down.

Lifting up on the hydro pedal is the equivalent of shifting to a lower gear on a manual transmission. Both equal lower speed and increased torque.