Shipping Container for Olive Mill

[TBDonnelly]

Rox, The link is about a Frenchman who composts for Heat and Methane Power. Perhaps it might be worth looking into for your mill project?

"Here's a great story from Reader's Digest about Jean Pain. Jean developed a system that heats his home and generates electricity from a compost heap! Jean puts his methane digester inside a compost heap to keep it warm and generates electricity with a methane powered generator system. Then he siphons off excess heat via coiled water hoses and sends it to the radiators in his house."

Composting for Heat and Methane

Don

 

[rox]

6Sunset6 brought up a good point about the roll up doors. I don't think on the end it would matter structurally as the thing is not that wide. If we cut out steel for in the center for a roll up door do you think we would have to weld some kind of frame, like a header type of thing in order to maintain structural integrity.

Most likely we will not cut the holes ourself, the place we buy the container from does modifications, we went down there and looked. Their price seemed reasonable so we will probably have them do it. I just wanted to know how it is done. And probably once we own the thing we will probably end up having to cut in for something we didn't anticipate and will have to know how to do it. I have always wanted a reciprocating saw anyway so when it is needed I'll get one. Thank you for the many tips on number of blades that might be required etc.

Next- I know nothing about welding, nothing. When our pergula was built the contractor brought a little machine with him, and I only saw for a brief minute and then had to leave, but I believe he was welding as he attached heavy iron lengths together.

If we would need something welded, say a shelf to hold up a hot water heater are there small portable welding units that can be brought on site and weld something? How expensive are welding machines? If they cost a lot then i figure I can expect to pay a lot for the service. If this is all steel and we don't put in any interior walls then everything is either freestanding, screwed or welded. How hard is it to screw into the thickness of steel on a container? And how do you do it?

 

[rox]

Don- You bring up a very good point about composting. What we could do and some do do is compost the olive paste residu. Here if you compost you have to do it in concrete type bins, basically a back wall and 2 side walls of concrete. We ahve a very high risk of fire here and especially for us if our trees burned down. it can be done and it can be done safely. To start with I think we will probably spread it on our fields as it is excellent fertilizer. Another idea I do really like is that you take the olive residu and form it into bricks and let the brisk dry and you use it for fuel in a fireplace or wood stove. They are doing this now in spain and generating electric from burning the blocks. however you have to find a way to effectively dry the bricks, in spain they have big ovens, apparently just letting them lay around to air dry doesn't work. We are going to start simple and then graduate to ever more adventerus projects. First I was an olive farmer now I am about to become a moulinier, it is very exciting and keep me young.

 

[CurlyDave]

I'll like a roll up door simply becasue someone will be inside working 24/7 during the harvest and it freezes at night here in November even we get snow sometimes during the day. I think a roll up door is going to be nicer to operate than pushing the heavy doors open and closed. Many times and hour the door is going to be opened as olives are brought in and oil is taken out. Figure a batch takes an hour. Depending on price we might get 2 roll up doors, one for an end and one in the middle.

You have me worried now about the floor. Why is it a big deal? I don't know, what I don't know Dave. I don't think it is practical to do the idea of of dividing the floor into cells and a drain for each. We will be moving around on a hand cart 60 liter tanks of oilive oil that weighs my guess 120lbs. Lots of times at the mills they like to just slide them on the floor, kind of pull them across the floor. And don't forget those 50lb crates of olives we will have to push around to get in position to dump. Typically you bring in the olives into the mill to warm up a bit before pressing so there is going to be a lot of movement of crates of olives on the floor. Floor drains are an impediment to dragging things across so one long channel down the center is what I have seen. What are your thoughts on why this is going to be hard to do/build? I am thinking plain concrete also but maybe someone has a better idea.

Rox:

I don't know the cost of roll-up doors where you are, but in the US, they are $600-1000 per door for 8' wide by 8' tall. Installation is not going to be free. By the time you have finished getting two roll-up doors installed you will be almost doubling the cost of the container. If you want it and can afford it, go for it, but I was getting the impression that cost was a big issue here. It sure would be for me for a building I was only going to use for 3 years.

The reason floors are an issue is that to get the drainage to work properly, you need to have slope. To get rain water to run off a patio, about 1/4" per foot is typical. You want a higher slope to get olive oil, paste, leaves, etc. to run off. I don't think that paste & leaves will run off by themselves, they will have to be hosed out. To get relatively fast drainage you need a greater slope. For instance, I just measured the slope on the centerline of my bathtub and it is ~3 degrees, which works out to 5/8" per foot. My guess would be that you want your floor to slope between 1/2" and 1" per foot.

Side-to-side the container is 8 feet, and if it slopes to the center, you might decide to pour concrete 2" thick in the center and 4" to 6" thick at the sides. Now think about what to do lengthwise.

One possibility is to put one end of the container higher than the other and have the runoff all go to one end. With a 40 foot container, one end would have to be 20" to 40" higher than the other. There are two problems here. One is that 40' is a long ways to push debris with a hose and it will be time-consuming and use a lot of water. The second issue has to do with your doors. If you decide to pay for roll-up doors you have no problems with a 3 degree tilt. If you keep the hinge open doors, they will operate poorly at such a large angle. They are heavy and they will want to swing to the "downhill" side. They might move dangerously fast, and it will always be an effort to operate them.

The other option would be to level the container and have a central drain. This means the floor at the entrance and exits would need to be 10" to 20" higher than the floor at the center, in addition to the side-to-side slope. This is a lot of concrete, and is why I suggested dividing the container into four drainage cells. If you did four cells, and had 2" of concrete at the center, the maximum thickness you would need at the "crosswise peaks" would be 4.5" to 7". This seems a lot more reasonable to me.

The drains themselves would be on the centerline of the container. I expect you would mount the machinery along the centerline, so you wouldn't drag anything across the floor drains. There would be "hills and valleys" in the concrete.

Now, I am making some assumptions about the necessary slope of the floor. You might check to see if there is a regulation on that.

 

[6sunset6]

Floor first
2.33m wide by 12 m long = 28 square meters
Then thickness of the floor I said 2 inch min that 5cm and 1/4 inch pitch over
1.65m makes it 2.75 inches on the high side. say average 2.5 inches = .0635m
.0635 X 28 =1.78 say 2 cubic meters. not much
Now This floor has to be really stiff or it will flex and start breaking up.
I think a little thicker with rebar in it would really work. 3 cubic meters of concrete would result in a slab almost 10cm thick. Talk to the concrete guys.
Now to welding. It depend on how thick the wall is whether or not it can structurally hold something . Welding on thin sections usually results in a lot of warping. You might be better off drilling and bolting . The bolts will create a thermal leak so tape a piece of insulation over it. You might have to use a plate on the outside so the bolt head is not pulled through.
Welding is fun but takes a lot of practice to make it work. And A LOT of practice on vertical surfaces. Don't even think about overhead. Hire a local welder. By the way , and you probably know this , but if you know what you want and listen to the trade guys recommendations and don't change things half way through the prices are not too bad.
I thought I was all done with metric conversions. You can burn out your brain doing them. I spent 3 weeks in Provence once I will come visit and help.

 

[rox]

CurlyDave, wow that is a lot of concrete. Let me add this, there is a regulation for an olive mill that the floor must be bowl shaped, basically thye are saying they want some slope but they dont' say how much. Perhpas the following will make a difference. In mills floors are cleaned ofen like every hour or so. Usually a power washer is used, aiming towards the center drain and then an extra long squeegee on the end of a long broom handle is used to squeegee the waste into the center drain. So we dont' expect that it will naturally run into the drain by itself. With this additional info what is your slope suggestion. And actually slope is a poor word choice. What is easier for me to understand is you need 2" at the sides and 1/2" in the center. I'm thinking a heavy slope is not what is required and would be a PIA when having to put in a desk and other stuff.

Another thing I am unsure about is the center channel drain, the one I saw yesterday was about an inch and a half deep. Do I have to cut through the floor to stick it down, or do you build up the concrete?

This is going to be a long thread for sure.

 

[rox]

6Sunset6- Excellent!!!!! Many thanks for your calculations, at least it is a start for us. We plan on using tradesmen. I guess I need to know about the floor in advance so the container guys can cut out the man door to the right height. I ws trying to look up what is the thickness of the steel the windows will be placed in. Will some type of frame need to be welded into the walls to hold the windows? It is hard to find this information but on this link page 7 near the bottom I think it says but I don't know how to read it. http://www.steinecker-container.de/container/Container2/Spez-Container/Spez_openSide.pdf

We have another neighbor down the road who is a welder + the guy who built our pergula I think he was welding as well.

This is not going to be a throw away in 3 years project we will move it to an ideal spot on our property an reuse this container for storage. You can never have to much storage...

 

[6sunset6]

I think just enough slope for water to run off. As you say push off the solids with with other forms of energy. I think the center channel can be formed in the concrete. Not necessary to hang it below the floor. I don't think you want to do anything that will degrade the structural integrity of the floor. It needs to be stiff.

 

[CurlyDave]

Just another thing to think of, I would suggest removing the plywood floor before pouring concrete just because wood expands and contracts a lot more than concrete, and steel would be a much better substrate underneath.

For a channel in the center, I would build up concrete rather than cutting a slot down the center of the container floor. The slot will weaken the container significantly.

Let me think about this for a while, I am beginning to have an idea...

 

[rox]

Just another thing to think of, I would suggest removing the plywood floor before pouring concrete just because wood expands and contracts a lot more than concrete, and steel would be a much better substrate underneath.

For a channel in the center, I would build up concrete rather than cutting a slot down the center of the container floor. The slot will weaken the container significantly.

Let me think about this for a while, I am beginning to have an idea...

Thanks. We will have the container mod guys pick up the plywood floor for us. We will want all that plywood of course. I am sure they have replaced many a plywood floor. What this company does is repair containers. When we visited they were working on a container for Perrier, the water company. They were hanging that aluminium bubble wrap type insulation inside the container. So they don't do mods as a full time business, but say they can do it no problem at all. They also sell used containers.

I might can the roll up doors idea and go for doors on both ends but then install an extra wide man door. I really do want them though, it will be so nice in the future to drive up to the container on the tractor and use a remote to roll up the garage door and then drive in.

 

[rox]

The mill I recently visited the channel in the middle was about 2 inches wide by maybe 1 1/2" or 2 " deep.

I have lots of other questions but I'm trying not to bring up to much at a time.

 

[6sunset6]

I think you mean this T.S.: 481 N/mm2
I am not sure but if I had to guess I would say Tensile Strength to be
481 newtons per square millimeter. or greater .
I guess it gives the fabricator some leeway in picking material . They can go thinner or thicker depending on alloy, heat treat etc. We don't use that format in the US so I really do not know. May Renze or Mike Peterson will know.

 

[6sunset6]

Just another thing to think of, I would suggest removing the plywood floor before pouring concrete just because wood expands and contracts a lot more than concrete, and steel would be a much better substrate underneath.

Good point besides the wood will rot eventually

 

[rox]

I have been thinking about the concrete and how heavy that is going to be.
One day we want to move this thing and build a building in the same spot. Do you think we should have wheels put on it? Something like this photo shows.

I don't know how we would get it to the next spot as the driveway isn't wide enough for the neighbors lift truck, it is not 40ft wide lol. The lift trucks pick up the container in the middle and move it widthwise, they dont' move it lengthwise. Otherwise when we went to move it we would have to get in a truck, use the lift truck to put it on the truck and then truck it down the driveway which is a lengthwise move, 100ft, and then lift truck it into place. Seems like wheels might be a good idea. What do you think? Could we pull it with our Mercury Mountianeer or our tractor if it was on wheels?

 

[rox]

We do have rebar as shown in the pick below. Does it matter if it is rusty?

FYI the cement blocks are special blocks that are made for building a swimming pool every contractor who looked at them said that. When we bought they were supposed to have built a pool but then the husband died and never finished it before we bought it so we have a few pallets of swimming pool block. I think it must be kind of pricey as the contractors were interested in it. I dont' think we'll ever use them, and I would just as soon sell them, as I would want one of those formed pools they bring in by truck, no leaks. It is a point of disagreement between my husband and myself and you can see he is winning the argument as the blocks are still there. Now maybe since we'll havve to move them he'll let me sell them.

 

[CurlyDave]

rox:

Here in the US, I could buy a metal garage. 12 GA steel, 8' walls, 11' roof peak, 12' x 35' (much bigger than your container) totally installed on my pad for $5355. 9' wide roll up doors are $375 each and a man door is $250.

http://www.gaport.com/price/sheets/cavgarage12price.htm

This is right in the same ballpark as your container, but is much, much more suited to your needs. It might even be less expensive when dollars are converted to euros.

The cost of a concrete pad shaped to your needs placed on the ground would be less than the cost of putting concrete in the container, because you would shape the earth under the floor to make the slopes and just pour 6" concrete over it, no thick sections.

Now I know you can't buy the one in the link, but someone in Europe must make something similar, with similar prices. This isn't a full-on insulated building, it is just a shell.

The cost of electricity, water, drains, etc. in a building like this will be lower than in a container. No, it isn't going to be beautiful, and it won't last as long as a container, but you will get 15-20 years out of it, and it will be "less ugly" than a container.

It will still be uninsulated, but for 6 weeks use per year, it will take many decades for insulation to pay for itself. Hang electric radiant heaters and be done with it.

Lastly, you really don't want to pour concrete in a container. It is going to be a nightmare to ever move it again, and it will make the container hard to use for storage in the future.

 

[6sunset6]

Rusty rebar is better but I don't think that is rebar . It looks like wire mesh but I am not really sure.
Now 1 cubic yard = .76 cubic meters concrete average is 4000#/cy
so a cubic meter would be 2363 kg I think plus rebar maybe another 500kg
So 3cubic meters would weight 7500 kg. According to the spec you attached previously for a 6 meter container it must carry 20,000kg . Yours is a 12 meter the loading would be much more. So I think the container would stay together.
I think the way to move it would be to jack it up and slide a wheel assembly under it. House movers can move anything in very small spaces. This thing is not very heavy. The 6m container weight by itself is 3080kg
Rox I have been trying to answer questions about your particular plan. As CurlyDave has said there are other ways to do this . I am sure there will be other suggestions as well. It sounds like you have been thinking about about this for a while though and certainly know the requirements better than we do.

 

[rox]

CurlyDave,
yes I did spend enormous amounts of time investigating a pole barn large and small. As I recall I coudl get a 6 meter or 7 meter by 12 meter pole barn for 27,000 euros plus of course the 19.6% sales tax. I am keeping my eye on the final destination, what do I want to build 3 years from now. I do not want a pole barn type of building 3 years from now. In 3 years I want to build a very nice building, an attactive building, that I would use all year long. The pole barn or metal garage is not something I want to end up with, so I don't want to start with that. I want to go as cheap as possible on the first housing for the equipment with the added benefit of being able to move it out.

Within 50ft of the spot is 3 phase electric (I think this is like 340 volts) water and sewer.
Our neighbor has a small excavator and can dig out the trenches merely for the cost of diesel fuel. Our electrician friend can locate the underground wires at no cost to dig the trenches. he will also install the electric at a very low cost. I'm not thinking the materials are going to be extrodinarly expensive to run sew, water and electric 50ft. The only think left unmet is the plumbing. Our back neighbor just built his beautiful home a year ago. Our flat roof was leaking, he built a home with a flat roof. We asked him who his roofer was, roofer came over and gave us a $5,000 quote 10 year guarantee. They did a great job on the roof and it doesn't leak. Over here is different than in the states. Over here we have many many small tradesman business owners and they don't charge as much as in the states. A plumber here makes only half of what a US plumber makes. For example my sisterin laws are clerks in municipal governemnt they after 40+ year they are pulling down a whopping 25,000 a year. Wages are lower here. The employor taxes for employess is a killer 50% of the employees salary goes to employer paid taxes. This keeps wages low and why the French workers are always striking. This is why there are so many small mom & pop businesses where it is the sons and duaghters working in the family business with a nephew and niece coming in if necessary. It keeps overhead low and they charge lower prices. Every tradesman would prefer to be paid part in cash and they will price it for you accordingly. it is material costs over here that is a killer.

Roughly-
Container = 3,600 Euros
Modifications to container = 1,200 Euros
Door & 4 windows = 1,000 Euros
Electric = 1,200 Euros (cost of wire for 3 phase prolly costs a lot, but it's only 50 ft)
Plumbing & sewer = 1,000 Euros
Floor = 1,000 Euros I am guessing here I'll know more once I get a concrete estimate
Hotwater heater = 300 Euros
Sink = 200 Euros
Total = 9,500 Euros

Three years from now my electric is over where I want it, same for sewere and water
I can remove and resuse the HWH and sink. And I still have a very nice storage building that can be moved out of the way and isn't torn down and reassembled.

3 years from now we will have 3 years of revenue to look back on and know the real figures of the business and the growth potential. I have pretty good hopes that we are going to be successful at this. My desire is in 3 years to build the building and install a second press and a year later a 3rd press. There is good money in milling. In the last two years we paid 20,000 euros to have our olives pressed (2 year total) I calcualte that it will take about 8 hours a day to mill our own olives and then the rest of the time mill for other customers. Mills run 24/7 at harvest time. We are a larger producer so our rate is lower but milling for the public they have smaller quantities so the rate is higher. I would be pretty happy if I could add 15,000 to 20,000 euros from this one small press in addition to saving us 10,000 a year in milling expenses formerly paid to others. I don't feel comfortable gambling it all, and we are already laying out $85,000 on the press, how far do I want to gamble, by building a real nice building in addition to the cost of the press when I don't have any customers to start with? I would rather start in a 10,000 Euro container that is re-usable and in fact can be re-sold if I wanted, and see what kind of business I can build and see the numbers. Once we have 3 full years under our belt then we will know the next step. We are to old to take on a lot of debt. Our farm is paid off and I don't want to go into debt. Our press will have value and if things don't work out can be resold also. If all heck breaks loose I can resell the container and resell the press, take my lumps and go home. But I dont' think that is gonna happen.

Since I did all that research on a pole barn, I can guarantee you it is at least 10,000 euros for the one car garage, if not then real close. And then after 3 years I would want to tear it down anyway. Every building requires an architect here, our container will not require an architect (is there an h in architect?) as it is not a permenent structure. Especially if I put wheels on it

I will not have to meet any city building codes , only a set of building codes that are specific to olive mills. There is a national building code for mills (think of all the grapes that are harvested) and a sub-section for olive mills. I dont' even need city permission since we already met with the planning dept. But I will make a goodwill visit before we buy it, before we sign, to the director of planning and urbanism. I thoughtfully called him right after New Years and wished him a Happy New Year.

I didn't put this out on TBN until we had made a final decision, as I did not want to waste my goodwill with ya'll chasing windmills. We have quotes from 5 contractors and now that I think about it, 3 pole barn companies. We are going to go with the 10,000 euro container (and it is not really 10,000 because the sewer, water and electrical will be reused at the same location) We will probably pay as you go this year, as we sell olive oil get the water put in, sell more oil put in the sewer, and use current revenue. I want this up and running in November so we have 10 months.

I sincerly appreciate you thinking about it and asking me to look at another solution, that shows that you really are interested in our project and I thank you for that.

 

[CurlyDave]

rox:

I understand your decision on the container. I won't stop making suggestions.

One day we want to move this thing and build a building in the same spot. Do you think we should have wheels put on it? Something like this photo shows.

Wheels like the ones in your picture work well on concrete, but I think they are too small to be effective on gravel like you have.

Any decent crew of riggers ought to be able to lift this up a few feet and put mobile home wheels, or something similar, under it even with a heavy concrete floor inside. It might cost something. I once watched a crew of about 5 move a 3 M wide x 10 M long steel vacuum chamber with about 5 cm thick walls (very heavy) out of a building and onto a truck in less than 3 hours. I don't know what they charged, but 15 man hours can't be that expensive.

I am just wondering if there isn't something which would be both lighter than concrete and removable for the floor. Maybe fiberglass with wood blocking underneath?

 

[6sunset6]

I have been thinking about the waste water problem. You will not have any gravity drain or not much. How about draing it into a small pump chamber, like a sump pump. runs off a float. Pump it into a farm tank on wheels. When it is full hook up the tractor and tow it to the fields. Have to do something while the tank on wheels is away. Pump it to a small stationary tank or stop work till the rolling tank comes back. This is like wine, pump it antwhere you want.