Septic System Questions (long)

[AndyM]

Here's a picture I took on May 12 right after the septic system failed the inspection. We moved in on April 24. It was quite a shock to us to find out a couple of weeks later that the inspector failed the system!

I bought the digital camera when we started building. I encourage anyone having a house built to take pictures every step of the way-- just in case! /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

 

[Egon]

Add a daily log book too if that is possible.

Egon

 

[5030]

Egon:

We used to put in engineered fields around here, but the red tape in dealing with the county plus the state just got to be too much.

From looking at Andy's front yard, I am really surprised that an engineered field wasn't part of the original building permit. I can't see how that particular piece of land would perk.

The bad thing about an engineered field is they actually have a life expectancy and that life can be appreciably lowered by the use of high phosphate detergent as well as household chemicals and kitchen grease and the introduction of as I call heavy toilet paper.

The toilet paper as well as the detergent and grease scenario also applies to conventional buried tanks and leach field systems.

On our farm, we have a conventional system with a grease trap prior to the main tank. I don't use anything but single ply toilet tissue and we stay away from as many household chemicals as possible. Our washing machine is piped into a separate leach field than the actual septic system.

 

[Egon]

5030:

Me thinks the drainage and soil type for a much larger area have to be looked at in this case.

And yes, I do not see how a conventional system would be allowed for installation.

Hakim gave some real good advice as this is one that will require detailed knowledge of the area and systems.

It could almost be alledged that a popular builder may have a little help in getting approvals.

Egon

 

[AndyM]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( It could almost be alledged that a popular builder may have a little help in getting approvals. )</font>

The plumbing contractor that they used is a very large company, and is used exclusively by this builder and one or two other large builders in this area (works out to about 500 houses a year).

One of the plumbers (not the site supervisor or owner of the company) told me that when the county comes to inspect a job and sees their company's name on the permit, it automatically gets passed, without even being looked at.

On the other hand, my HVAC failed inspection because the "installation instructions" weren't next to the furnace. The furnace was already installed, so why would the installation instructions (they were sitting upstairs on the kitchen counter) have to be with the furnace?

 

[dmccarty]

Andy,

Does the state or county have a list of approved engineers and
contractors? In my area both maintain these lists. As you
found out the county/state extension services can be a huge
assest. You might want to call them to see what they have to
say. In NC the septic regulations are part of the state statutes.
You might want to try to find OH's regs and start reading. I
had problems with the permit process at the county level when
I was buying our land. I read the regs, knew more about it
than the county inspector, and had two reports from soil
scientists, so I went to the state who overruled the county. The
county guy was fired a few years later after 3-4 decades of
service. Bad service from what I could see.

Besides an engineer you might want to get a soil scientist to
come out and look at things. In NC these are two different
skills, professions, and liceneses. The engineer designs a
system based on the report from the soil scientist. In turn,
the contractor builds based on the design of the engineer. But
it all starts or should start with the soil scientist.

Let us know what happens.
Dan McCarty

 

[Bird]

Dan, odd coincidence (or perhaps not so odd), but the State of Texas also has such statutes, and it's a book that's thick enough for you to spend many an evening just to read through it. And our county had a single inspector, and all the neighbors I talked to said he was crazy, had been fired once, then a year or so later, hired back. The only problem I had with him was in getting the original paperwork done. He gave me one form to complete which I did and returned it to him, then he had another one for me to do, and I did that, then he came up with a third one, so I had to make 3 trips to his office when one should have done, if he'd asked for everything he wanted to start with. But my brother got nowhere with him, and finally went to see one of the county commissioners, the commissioners court overrruled and fired the inspector. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[5030]

Bird:

You are hard to look at in that orange get-up.

You actually GLOW!!!!!!

 

[5030]

Egon:

When I looked at Andy's picture of the water logged yard. I thought to myself 'no one in the trades with an ounce of knowledge would put an in-ground system in that area'.

I see the inspector scenario played out around here on numerous occasions. There is a large amount of the good 'ole boy inspector/contractor crap around here as well as about any rural setting. That's one reason we got away from installing engineered fields. In more than one incident, the inspector had about as much knowledge of the item he was inspecting ie: electrical, plumbing or structure, as a toothpick. It all boils down to who is friends with whom, what lodge they belong too or family ties. The problem with incompetence is that the homeowner, in the end, bears the brunt of their inability to perform the inspection or for that matter the actual work, properly.

I know those are harsh words and I probably rilled more than one TBYNetter, but that's how in works in rural America.

To Andy, I'd get the opinion of a Sanitation Engineer, board certified and get it in writing. Secondly, I'd get a good mouth piece, one of those $250.00 per hour ones and let him lay down the law or should I say lay down the suit against the township, their inspectors as well as the general contractor for punitive as well as compensatory damages. At that point, after you have built the fire, I bet the township and the contractor will be pretty happy to resolve your problem.

I might add this:

Years ago, I lived in Ohio, where Andy resides. I got to see first hand, what poorly installed septic systems with undersized leach fields in heavy ground do. There was a 50's development across the road from my home. The lots weren't large enough to accommodate the leach fields and the water table was high. The fields worked marginally for a number of years but eventually became clogged and saturated. At that point, a number of homeowners had a raw sewage problem, especially in the spring. The solution was to install a residential sewage system for all the homes at the homeowners expense of course. The builder, inspectors and their cronies were long gone.

 

[Egon]

5030:

Such is life. It's a form that seems to be able to come back after eradication wear different colours but acting the same.

Don't condone it and feel for those on the paying end. There are times when the thought of Tar and feathers crosses ones mind.

Egon

 

[Egon]

Bird:

Betcha you know what was implied you do and didn't do and why you had to make three trips.

Egon

 

[Bird]

Daryl, my picture would look a lot better if it included a cab model 5030. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[dmccarty]

Bird,

The funny thing, well I thought it was funny, about the NC septic
regs is that they had requirements for Outhouses. How large
they had to be, the type of floor,(marine grade plywood), etc. I
do know there are alot of outhouses still in use in NC so I guess
the regs make sense. But they sure shocked me....

The inspector I delt with was fired by the county. Then hired
by the town. He then left their employment. From my
time with him I think he was incompetent and crooked. I
have heard some interesting things from govenment
employees about him as well. But his family has been around
the county for a long time so just better leave well enough
alone. You don't know when you will run into a relative....

And it does matter who you know. There are two lots in
my subdivision that had not one but two different soil scientists
survey the property for perc. There ain't any so they say. The
county now has a really good guy from what I can see. He is a
real soil scientist with the credentials. He approved a perc site
on one of these lots. The installer came in and said we should
put the field over there. So they did and it was approved.
Now what is up with that?

I don't want to know. I'm glad I live uphill and upstream.

I had one installer come out and give me a price on a LPP
system for one lot. He qouted 16-17,000 dollars. Bovine Scat
said I. I ain't paying 17K for something I can do myself. I
could afford to mess it up 4 or 5 times, redo it and still come
out ahead. An engineer is designing the thing all I have to do
is follow instructions....

Move ahead 5 years and we decided to build on a different
spot. Should be a conventional system with a little bit extra.
The build is saying 3-4K. Same installer. The only real
differences in the two systems is a pump and another tank.
Well, and the installer is dealing with the builder and not a
plain jane citizen.....

Later,
Dan

 

[5030]

Dan:

Lots of similarities to my previous post about the good 'ole boy syndrome.

 

[dmccarty]

5030,

Yep, very similar stories. I started to answer you but then
remembered that Bird had replied to me first so I killed two birds with one stone. So to speak. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif And Bird is so visible
with his orange garb..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Now I like the new guy we have in the county. But I sure don't
understand how they could move the field they way they did.
Since its not my land its not my business and the field they use
could be good. Its just it was not found by two other soil
scientists....

Later,
Dan

 

[5030]

Dan:

I think Bird should go from "Bird" to the "Orange Crusader" /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Or: "Mr. Popsickle" /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[NoTrespassing]

Our soil here won't "perk". Rather than haul in enough new soil, we put in a Jet system. I think the total installed was under $4K. The neighbors have the same system.

This link is to a similar system
http://vanity.qwestdex.com/boulderelectricmotor/Page4.html

 

[riptides]

How do they work? How can they NOT have sludge build-up?
Do they still drain?

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[NoTrespassing]

http://www.epa.gov/region1/assistance/ceitts/wastewater/techs/jetaerobic.html

Here's a EPA page that explains the jet system. Ours just dumps out into a ravine and ends up being soaked into the ground or evaporating. Ours is actually a 1000 gal. I believe.

"The JET series 1500 treatment system has been rigorously tested by the National Sanitation Foundation. The system achieves NSF 40 Class 1 effluent quality, i.e., an effluent quality consistently better than 30 mg/L BOD and 30 mg/L TSS. In Massachusetts, the JET system is approved for use to repair failed or failing septic systems. The remedial use permit allows certain reductions of Title 5 leaching area requirements. JET is particularly well suited for use where small lots, high groundwater, and/or poor soils are encountered. The JET system is currently undergoing pilot testing and achieves some nitrogen and phosphorus removal."

"JET treatment utilizes a motor driven aspirator shaft that thoroughly mixes and disperses fine air bubbles into the aerobic chamber of the treatment tank. This is an activated sludge system, which uses both suspended and fixed growth bacteria to achieve secondary biological treatment. The aeration chamber capacity of 650 gallons allows a detention time of more than 30 hours at design flow of 500 gallons per day."

Kevin

 

[5030]

Kevin:

I read the specifications on the EPA sheet in the link you provided. One consideration is stated that the JET system is not suitable for areas that flood, and the poster has an area that is prone to flooding.