seat belt - always -

Big_A · Jan 22, 2004

I'm not saying that using all safety devices at your disposal is a bad idea, I just want to know when does it stop? If I decide that wearing a helmet should be standard fare for car drivers, and I beat my drum or blare my trumpet loud enough, it becomes a great idea and some liberal thinking state decides it should be a law. Then other states follow suit and wham, we have another safety law on the books because we don't know how best to take care of ourselves.

There are a heck of a lot more people out there that are sucking off of Joe and Jane tax payer than people that got hurt because they didn't use their seat belt. If it makes you happy to wear one, then by all means, do it. Just don't tell me I have to!

beltfed · Jan 22, 2004

No such thing as a seat belt for my Iseki Tractor, nor ROPS nor anything else. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

jrdellaratta · Jan 22, 2004

My concern for personal safety went through the roof once I had children.
My new JD has a fixed ROPS and seatbelt, things I don't have on my smaller Kubota 185, the tractor I learned to drive on when I was 12 (and we still have it for mowing between the vines).
Now that I have kids, I'm convinced 12 was too early for me to start driving that thing unsupervised, although I guess I was rather careful, even back then.
Now, even when I'm just moving the JD from the driveway into the garage (after hosing it down or something), and if my older 3 yr. old daughter is watching from the safety of the porch steps, she always yells, "Daddy! Seat-belt!!!"

I have seen my father take unnecessary risks, to this day, and I get so mad at him, because 1) I want him around for alot longer, 2) It's a stupid way to go, and 3) Since I'd likely be the one to find him, I might lose my taste for my tractors if one is involved in an accident that maimed or killed one of my family.
Soon after I bought my JD, he was using it, and had to come to me and confess that he couldn't get it restarted, after he got off to clear some brush from under the rotary cutter. I scolded him, because it told me he got off the tractor without disengaging the PTO, and the JD's safety features kicked in and killed the engine.

PineRidge · Jan 22, 2004

My Uncle used to feel the very same way about seat belts that some of you do. He was driving to work one morning years ago and was hit broadside by a lady that did not see a stop sign. My Uncle was thrown from the car and it rolled over on top of him and crushed him to death. The police at the scene said that he would have easily survived the accident if he had worn his seat belt. His son, Rick was 5 at the time, Susan his daughter was 9. The family was never the same after that and Mildred has not remarried to this day over 30 years later. Every time I buckle my seat belt I think of my family first, it really is your choice to make.

keeney · Jan 22, 2004

... If it makes you happy to wear one, then by all means, do it. Just don't tell me I have to! ... 

This is of course the essence of the question - how intrusive should the government be in our lives? Is there a difference in them intruding directly vs. them making the manufacturer do it?

How would we feel about of instead of passing a law to mandate seat belt usage, they made a law such that the tractor wouldn't run without the seatbelt being used? Most people would be mad that the tractor had the added cost of the seatbelt interlock even though they always use the seatbelt anyway! Those who don't use seatblets would be additionally mad that they have to bypass the interlock they were forced to buy even though they didn't want it.

It also might be illuminating to think of it in terms of dangers we could never possibly decide for ourselves. Should the government regulate the safety of our food? The safety of power plants? The safety of the houses that we live in? The reasons behind all of these types of laws is that the average person does not have the expertise (or time) to evaluate every product they buy or use. If the government doesn't watch out for people in those situations, who will?

I don't see much of a distinction between a law that mandates that you can only sell cars with safety glass vs. you can only use a car with a seatbelt. Both add to the cost and inconvenience of using a car during non-collision operation. One restricts the manufacturer, the other restricts the user.

I think the issue here is not if the government should be in the safety business, but really the old issue of government decisions made for political or stupid reasons vs. reasonable reasons.

- Rick

Lazy · Jan 22, 2004

Hi
Like states that mandate seatbelt laws but let people ride motorcycles without helmets.

When you get so use to people watching out for your well being then you forget to look out for yourself. They don’t talk about the people that were trapped in cars and burned up because the seatbelt failed and wouldn’t release.

Charlie.

Bird · Jan 22, 2004

( They don’t talk about the people that were trapped in cars and burned up because the seatbelt failed and wouldn’t release )

I've heard that as a theory, Charlie, but can you tell me where I can find an actual case of that ever happening? I'd like to obain copies of the police report of any such accident.

MossRoad · Jan 22, 2004

Here, read this then come back here and let us know what you think about it. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Lazy · Jan 22, 2004

Hi
Maybe some safety devices are a replacement for common sense and responsibility. I’m not against all safety devices. I can think of a lot of things more hazardous to your health than not wearing a seatbelt or getting off the tractor while it is still running.

What about school busses that are not required to have seatbelts. Maybe the driver is required to wear one. Near St. Louis just a week or so ago one turned over on its side on Interstate I-70 Lucky no one was killed just a few injuries.

When asked why school busses were not required to have seatbelts it was stated it cost too much money.

Bird on the seatbelt failing I don’t have any Info at hand that would support my statement but I will do some research, but suspect the police wouldn’t include it in their report.

In NASCAR racing they have mandated the wearing of head and neck restraints because the head keeps moving even if you stop the body causing neck injuries, I suppose that will be next, cars with a HANS device.

Charlie

Bird · Jan 22, 2004

( suspect the police wouldn’t include it in their report )

Well, I retired from law enforcement 15 years ago, but in the 24 years and 10 months I was doing it, and with getting acquainted with police officers from every state and many foreign countries, either from visiting each other or as classmates at the Northwestern University Traffic Institute and the FBI National Academy, I suspect you're mistaken. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif If there was any evidence of that happening, every officer I've known would have included it.

As the link Mossroad provided explains, being ejected from the vehicle is the worst thing that can happen to you in nearly all cases but, yes, there actually have been cases in which a person ejected was not as seriously injured as it was believed he/she would have been had he/she not been ejected.

Now I'll also admit to some degree of prejudice; I started wearing seat belts in 1962, and on December 29, 1965, I was in the passenger seat in a squad car that hit a tree head on. The impact was severe enough that it broke my seat belt (probably because in those days they did not have the retractors and seat belts frequently were allowed to fall outside and have doors shut on them which may have weakened mine). And since the seat belt broke, my head went partially through the windshield. They found my uniform cap still stuck in the broken glass, that thick bill on the cap was cut completely through and I had small cuts all over my head and on my eyelids, but no deep cuts. I managed to get out of the car before I lost conciousness (first officers on the scene thought I was dead) and you've probably never seen anyone as bruised, black and blue, and bloody as I was, but I've no doubt I'd have been dead if that seat belt hadn't slowed me down. My partner didn't have his seat belt on, and he survived (miraculously), but I went home that same night; he was in the hospital a long, long time after multiple surgeries. My wife has only had one accident, but it was a rollover, totalled the vehicle, and her seat belt undoubtedly save her from death or serious injury. And my youngest daughter is convinced her seat belt has saved her from serious injury, if not death, three times.

So, yes, I wear'em; wouldn't be without them, but like a lot of people, I didn't want a law saying I had to. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif We all like the independence to make our own descisions I think. But I think we also understand the economic costs to all of us when someone is injured or killed because he/she didn't use available safety devices.

Junkman · Jan 23, 2004

( .......................Now I'll also admit to some degree of prejudice; I started wearing seat belts in 1962, and on December 29, 1965, I was in the passenger seat in a squad car that hit a tree head on. The impact was severe enough that it broke my seat belt (probably because in those days they did not have the retractors and seat belts frequently were allowed to fall outside and have doors shut on them which may have weakened mine). And since the seat belt broke, my head went partially through the windshield. They found my uniform cap still stuck in the broken glass, that thick bill on the cap was cut completely through and I had small cuts all over my head and on my eyelids, but no deep cuts. ......................... )

Bird....... back then most seat belt failures were a result of the mountings failing, not the belt itself. I don't know if you verified what actually happened to the belt in your instance, but my bet would be the belt mounting failure as the fault. Back then it was nothing more than a hole in the floor that was backed up by a large metal washer holding a eye bolt. The floor metal would tear and that was the failure.... Saw it many times in my carreer.... I must have a dozen of those old belts still in the original packaging in my cellar....

Bird · Jan 23, 2004

( back then most seat belt failures were a result of the mountings failing, not the belt itself )

That's exactly right, of course, and that's what I later suspected, but I talked to the accident investigator later about that and he said, no, it was the belt itself that tore in two. It was the only accident he or I ever knew of in which the fabric of the belt gave way. But you know in 1965 a lot of the police officers didn't wear the belts; some considered them to be a nuisance and in the way so they didn't worry about one hanging out the door and getting dirty and/or damaged, and that one was in poor condition. In fact, the car was near the end of its service life and would have been replaced within a month or two even if it hadn't been totalled.

AndyM · Jan 23, 2004

( I must have a dozen of those old belts still in the original packaging in my cellar.... )

What's the matter? Don't you have anymore room to store them in your garage? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously though, the technology of the early seatbelts compared with today's was so poor, there were some models where you were better off not using them. Remember the earliest attempt at shoulder belts? First you put on the lap belt. Since it wasn't on a retractor, it had to be adjusted. Then you hooked the shoulder belt into the lap belt. You could tighten it so it would work, but then you couldn't move, or you could leave it loose, making it ineffective in a crash. On my Honda 600 (a death trap, even with your seat belt /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif), I never used the shoulder belt (too much of a pain to hook it in each time), but I always used my lap belt. I remember seeing cars with separate shoulder belts that had never been used. They still had the original folds and creases in them from the factory!

Today's seatbelt technology is so much better, and I credit my seatbelt for saving my life!

Lazy · Jan 23, 2004

Hi
Bird I did some research and found the following site that I thought was interesting reading. I guess I'm the dummy of the immediate family I’m the only one that doesn’t buckle up every time we get into a vehicle. And I have been in several accidents non-where anyone was seriously hurt. Tore up a lot of cars and trucks. It must be true it’s hard to teach old dogs new tricks.

http://www.actsinc.org/

http://www.health.state.ok.us/program/Injury/okface/BrushHog.htm

http://users.aol.com/forgood/seatbelt/victims.htm

http://www.tarorigin.com/ARnews/ARnews6-99/0968.html

http://www.seatbeltlaw.com/types_of_injuries.html

Hambone · Jan 23, 2004

From one of your sights

Cars don't burn in minor crashes and they only explode in the movies. Vehicle fires are statisically so few that they don't figure as the cause of the injury (being hit broadside by a train going 60 mph is not a survivable crash so if the car burns the fire is not an injury contributing event.

MossRoad · Jan 23, 2004

It must be true it’s hard to teach old dogs new tricks. 

Oh, I don't know about that... maybe all you need is some treats and positive conditioning /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Look, we'd feel awful if something happened to you, your loved ones would feel awful and it would be a terrible waste of human life. Why play against the odds on a day-to-day basis? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Junkman · Jan 23, 2004

( ....................Look, we'd feel awful if something happened to you, your loved ones would feel awful and it would be a terrible waste of human life. Why play against the odds on a day-to-day basis? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif )

I believe that this is why the Darwin Awards were created.... some people just do stupid things against all good advise. Read more about the Darwin Awards Here........

MossRoad · Jan 23, 2004

That's not a treat and positive reinforcement... /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bird · Jan 23, 2004

Lazy, at least the 3rd of your sites seems to support your position to some extent if all the reports listed are true. But even if they are, that's a pretty small number for 20 years compared to the number of people who've been saved by seat belts. I look at it as playing the odds and the odds seem to be solidly in favor of wearing the seat belt.

Of course we know that we'll never get everyone to wear them. I was never able to convince my own Dad to wear them, and he drove his entire life without ever being in so much as a fender bender, so there are plenty of people who beat the odds; I just never considered myself to be that lucky. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I started using seat belts for the wrong reason; installed them myself in my car in 1962, not for safety reasons, but to hold my rear end behind the steering wheel when stunt driving after I had an "incident?" in which I was slung loose from the steering wheel over against the right door of a car. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Like a lot of things, it can seem awkward, inconvenient, etc. to get in the habit of wearing them, but after awhile, it just becomes second nature. I don't even think about it, but just ain't comfortable in a car (or on a tractor) without the belt on.

PineRidge · Jan 23, 2004

Like a lot of things, it can seem awkward, inconvenient, etc. to get in the habit of wearing them, but after awhile, it just becomes second nature. I don't even think about it, but just ain't comfortable in a car (or on a tractor) without the belt on.


Bird I'm with you, at this point in my life it would be awkward to get in a car or on a tractor and not use a seat belt. I also consider it second nature.