SCUTs, why so little competition?

[Barnboy]

I would never say that a subcompact was a waste of money. If I had 2-4acres of land I would own a subcompact. I think they have a place in the market. If not Kubota would not manufactur them. From what ive read here they are very powerfull machines. Some people here with BX tractors have done more than I have with my cut.

 

[HomeBrew2]

I would never say that a subcompact was a waste of money. If I had 2-4acres of land I would own a subcompact. I think they have a place in the market. If not Kubota would not manufactur them. From what ive read here they are very powerfull machines. Some people here with BX tractors have done more than I have with my cut.

Well said. That's probably why none of us really bothered with a reply. It's kindof as the old saying goes ... once you take the BS out of a LoneCowboy, there ain't much left. I have to admit though, I do take some pleasure each time somebody says a SCUT is mostly a mowing machine with capablities for other stuff. I have a lawn mower. I sure didn't buy a SCUT to mow grass though I do bushhog weeds 3-4 x per year. The rest of the time my BX is engaging the ground ... heck, they're probably fixing to get married soon for all I know

 

[coasterez]

However much they want. Who else is better qualified to make this decision than the people paying the bills?

What one wants and what one needs aren't always the same.... and that was the point (and I could be considered one of these people myself). I was simply pointing out where the market looks to be for SCUTS, at least in these parts. What was your point and how does it help the original poster?

 

[coasterez]

I see you are in western Maryland. There is a TYM dealer in Harrisburg, Pa. - Walter's Tractor or something like that. Maybe there is one closer to you. But, I do know of this one because that is where I drove to test it. It was a 2 hour drive one way for me here in central MD. Harrisburg is a distribution Hub for TYM. So, if you want to test one, you can go there and test all their models.

Price wise, they are a bit high I think. I was quoted TLB, loaded tires, toothbar, delivery at $21500. Check out the TYM forum for more info. Being a true CUT, I think they will work "bigger" than the SCUTS but with similar turf impact and maneuverability. Really a nice machine. It's too bad they are so pricey.

 

[MikePA]

What was your point and how does it help the original poster?

I wasn't responding to the original poster, I was responding to you. That's why I quoted your message. However, your post echoed the original posters sentiment when you judged other people's motives for why they own a SCUT and why they own the size house they do, i.e.,

"Some just have to have the "bigger" or "best" of every thing. Many of the Macmansions are 4000+ sq. feet, yet only two people "live" there (when they're not working to pay for it). How much square footage do 2 people really need?"

Most people on TBN, if not all, who own SCUTs do not fit your aforementioned characterization. And, no, I do not own a Mercedes, a 4,000 sq ft house or a SCUT, but more power to anyone who does. The car(s), home(s) and tractor(s) other people own, and why they own them, is their business and no one elses.

 

[coasterez]

Ok Mike,

Then, in your opinion, what demographic buys most of the SCUTS and where is the market GROWTH going to come from to support more models from other manufacturers? Who is going to buy the thousands of machines that must be sold to justify entry into this market? This is what a company will want to know (among other things). It's not the townhouse owner, or a guy on a 1/4 acre lot. Is it farmers? Is it landscape contractors? In my neck of the woods it's the 2 - 10 acre estate owners - and they are here by the thousands with more and more popping up every day. Maybe not all of them have huge houses. But, that's not the point. The point is that more and more land is being converted to 2 - 10 acre parcels where SCUTS are a good fit. Might be different where you are, I don't know. If you disagree, then who do you think is going to buy them such that there are more options for the consumer in this size machine?

I wasn't in any way meaning to put these people(Macmansion owners) down, or suggest that they are wasting their money or making bad decisions. There is no need to defend them; it isn't even relevant to my point nor this thread. Most Americans just have way more than they really need. Every year, new things are getting "bigger and better". The average house built in the 70's was much smaller than the average house built today. The car built in the 70's was less fancy and lower in cost (though maybe not more affordable) than those owned today. Same goes for just about everything, including lawn equipment and tractors. When I was growing up, push-mowing an acre or two was quite common. Now, I think it's rare. Most will use a rider of some sort. Do we NEED these bigger, better, nicer things? In most cases no, but that is what we WANT to buy, and IS what we are buying. And what we buy is what will determine the fate of the SCUT, right?

 

[MikePA]

Then, in your opinion, what demographic buys most of the SCUTS and where is the market GROWTH going to come from to support more models from other manufacturers?...Most Americans just have way more than they really need. Every year, new things are getting "bigger and better". Do we NEED these bigger, better, nicer things? In most cases no, but that is what we WANT to buy, and IS what we are buying. And what we buy is what will determine the fate of the SCUT, right?

I was not disagreeing with who buys SCUTs, I was disagreeing with yours, and orgts, characterization of these buyers as well as gross generalizations such as;

"Most Americans just have way more than they really need." According to who?
"Do we NEED these bigger, better, nicer things? In most cases no" According to who?
"which is why they will drive a Mercedes when a Camry would do just as fine a job" Who says a Camry will do just fine?

Instead of focusing the thread on SCUTs and who might buy them, gratuitous, ad hominem and irrelevant comments about these potential buyers are included in posts.

The unstated assumption is the poster's need for a SCUT, CUT, UT, Ag Tractor, etc., are always justified. It's those 'other people', the people who own 'McMansions' or have a '4,000 sq ft house for 2 people' who have no 'real' need to buy what they buy, they simply buy them because 'bigger is better'.

 

[orgt]

I was not disagreeing with who buys SCUTs, I was disagreeing with yours, and orgts, characterization of these buyers as well as gross generalizations such as;

"Most Americans just have way more than they really need." According to who?
"Do we NEED these bigger, better, nicer things? In most cases no" According to who?
"which is why they will drive a Mercedes when a Camry would do just as fine a job" Who says a Camry will do just fine?

Instead of focusing the thread on SCUTs and who might buy them, gratuitous, ad hominem and irrelevant comments about these potential buyers are included in posts.

The unstated assumption is the poster's need for a SCUT, CUT, UT, Ag Tractor, etc., are always justified. It's those 'other people', the people who own 'McMansions' or have a '4,000 sq ft house for 2 people' who have no 'real' need to buy what they buy, they simply buy them because 'bigger is better'.

Mike and everyone else...

What I said about Mercedes vs. Camry was JUST A LITTLE WINK. You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Kindly start another thread if you really want to discuss this totally different topic.

Special thanks to Andy, Neil, coasterez and the other folks who kept on topic and offered some very interesting thoughts. I've already learned quite a bit.

So far what do we have? TYM looks great but high-priced too, so not a better-priced alternative to BX and TZ.

Hmmm. there was a nibble on a new Mahindra SCUT on their board but no details. Anything else?

 

[orgt]

I see you are in western Maryland. There is a TYM dealer in Harrisburg, Pa. - Walter's Tractor or something like that. Maybe there is one closer to you. But, I do know of this one because that is where I drove to test it. It was a 2 hour drive one way for me here in central MD. Harrisburg is a distribution Hub for TYM. So, if you want to test one, you can go there and test all their models.

Price wise, they are a bit high I think. I was quoted TLB, loaded tires, toothbar, delivery at $21500. Check out the TYM forum for more info. Being a true CUT, I think they will work "bigger" than the SCUTS but with similar turf impact and maneuverability. Really a nice machine. It's too bad they are so pricey.

This is high indeed. The do have a very interesting MMM though, well for me at least. If memory serves it's a 60 inch model but with REAR discharge, a variation that's very attractive to me (I garden/farm organic so the more grass I can collect the more compost I can make LOL.)

Harrisburg's not that far and I will definitely stop by when I get a chance, thanks for the tip

 

[MikePA]

Mike and everyone else...

What I said about Mercedes vs. Camry was JUST A LITTLE WINK. You guys are blowing this way out of proportion. Kindly start another thread if you really want to discuss this totally different topic.

Special thanks to Andy, Neil, coasterez and the other folks who kept on topic and offered some very interesting thoughts. I've already learned quite a bit.

So far what do we have? TYM looks great but high-priced too, so not a better-priced alternative to BX and TZ.

Hmmm. there was a nibble on a new Mahindra SCUT on their board but no details. Anything else?

I apologize for blowing it out of proportion. If there's no Smilie, I assume (bad word ) the comment is serious. My bad.

 

[coasterez]

The other good thing about the TYMs is that you can leave everthing on the tractor if you wish. As was told by the dealer, don't have to take off 3ph or mower to use bh or loader. Attacments come on and off real easy too. I don't think this is true of all machines in this size. If I could only have one machine to mow my finished lawn and do a little digging for me, the TYM would be at the top of my list. Still not sure I'd buy it for all the reasons stated, but I'd be real tempted. Nearly perfect for the small acreage guy.

I would suggest also looking at the Simplicities. Pretty nice setup too.

And if I offended any SCUT owners who aren't MacMansion owners, I'm sorry. Never intended to do that. But, I do see market growth for machines designed for the 2 - 10 acre lots. Remember, this is just what I think, which may not be worth much.

 

[aesanders]

So far what do we have? TYM looks great but high-priced too, so not a better-priced alternative to BX and TZ.

Hmmm. there was a nibble on a new Mahindra SCUT on their board but no details. Anything else?

I think the market is fairly saturated with scuts.

JD has the 2305 (700 series garden tractors could also be considered scuts)

NH has the TZ series (also a Case clone as well)

Kubota has the bx series

Maseey Fergusen has the GC machine. (AGCO also has the same tractor)

Cub Cadet has a model that I can't think of the series.

Simplicity Legacy XL can be considered a scut.



The TYM is a CUT. It has the height to allow full category 1 implement use. It is more closely in size to my John Deere 2320, and other small frame CUTS. The small frame CUTS are also fairly well stocked.

The main advantage a scut has over a small frame cut is it's lawn mowing abilities. Maybe imports such as Kioti and Mahindra want to stay clear of this market cause that opens a whole other arena such at ZTR's etc.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I think the market is fairly saturated with scuts.

I totally agree with you. There are roughly a dozen SubCUT units out there in various levels of power and configuration. Kubota realistically owns the market with their BX series and probably has something like 85% of all the SubCUT sales out there. What is more likely is that many dealers don't stock the SubCUTs in the home area of the original poster, or that he doesn't have dealers for the other brands.

 

[IslandTractor]

The other good thing about the TYMs is that you can leave everthing on the tractor if you wish. As was told by the dealer, don't have to take off 3ph or mower to use bh or loader. Attacments come on and off real easy too. I don't think this is true of all machines in this size.

If I am not mistaken you could make exactly the same statement about the BX23/24 which cost quite a bit less than the TYM and have a better dealer network.

 

[orgt]

I totally agree with you. There are roughly a dozen SubCUT units out there in various levels of power and configuration. Kubota realistically owns the market with their BX series and probably has something like 85% of all the SubCUT sales out there. What is more likely is that many dealers don't stock the SubCUTs in the home area of the original poster, or that he doesn't have dealers for the other brands.

Bob so far it looks like Kubota has been given free range by its competition in this segment. I still am surprised, I must admit, that TSC, or MTD, or "smaller" brands don't seem to be interested in competing in what has got to be the fastest-growing segment of the tractor market.

My local TSC has had several CUTs (Minot, Chinese-made and rebadged?) sitting in front for over 6 months, not ONE sale! I can almost guarantee that if they had had half a dozen "one size down" tractors with MMM for 2K less than a BX they would have long been sold. In fact one of the store folks hinted at that.

As to Cub, their 5000 series fits the bill but there's just too many quality-control problems at MTD for me to be comfortable with that. They are big enough to compete though and one wonders if they will wake up and offer something. They do offer very good value with their 3000 series so they can do it.... if they addressed QC and offered a new line of SCUT maybe we'd have a real contender in this segment!

BTW my closest Kubota dealer stocks plenty of BX. Doesn't seem to be interested in selling them though LOL, but that's another story, not relevant in this thread.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Bob so far it looks like Kubota has been given free range by its competition in this segment. I still am surprised, I must admit, that TSC, or MTD, or "smaller" brands don't seem to be interested in competing in what has got to be the fastest-growing segment of the tractor market.

I think this segment of the market was the fastest growing but I think it is topped off and many people are buying commercial grade ZTRs instead of SubCUTs because of their faster cut times and now many can be equipped with front blades for pushing snow, etc. If anything the SubCUT market is probably getting a lot of sales pressure from small frame CUTs with big HP engines like the NH TC26 as well as downward pressure from the more capable ZTRs. So I would be very surprised to see if the SubCUT sector is growing, let alone being the fastest growing sector. Just my guess. Maybe a dealer can interject some additional information about this sector of the market.

 

[MossRoad]

I am just curious, why is it that "lesser-known" brands don't seem to compete with Kubota's wonderful but pricey BX series?...

Because Kubota has done an outstanding job tying up that segment of the market for themselves by building excellent machines and great service. A Kubota on the lawn of a nice home has come to be just as much of a status symbol as that Mercedes in the driveway. In general, Kubotas work well, rarely break, are repaired promptly if they do by people that come to your house, pick them up, take them back and smile at you, much like what happens when a Mercedes breaks down. If you can afford a nice, big home and a nice car why not get a nice tractor to go with it all? (Personally, I'd pick spending money on a tractor before a house and a car ).

While other companies do make some fine machines, and some are less expensive, I just don't see them upsetting the Kubota apple cart in that market until Kubota makes some huge marketing blunder, which doesn't appear likely.

Heck, I almost bought a BX2200 in 2001 instead of my Power Trac PT425. They were just to pretty to consider beating on!

 

[LoneCowboy]

Question for Neal, what model tractor is Kubota's largest seller? What is the top 5 sellers?

>Well, cuz a SCUT is a waste of time.
I mean, why bother?<
Depends on what you need a tractor for.
I primarily mow 4 acres and the lay of the land varies from several fairly steep hills to several low land spots that can stay wet a week or more after a good rain. The low ground clearance is a plus on the slopes and the higher power to weight ratio is a plus on the turf, especially when it's wet.
A heavier tractor would tear the turf up to where grass wouldn't be able to keep a toe hold, I know as I used to bush hog it with a TE20 and 5' Howse BH. What was a muddy bog is now finished lawn......

I don't have much need to transport over 500 lbs in the FEL and if need be I can purchase implements that'll allow me to do most any task that a CUT will do. Albeit smaller but then again what tasks I do are somewhat smaller than what one would do on a working farm anyhow.....
If I need to move 1000lbs I can use a carryall on the 3ph.....

A SCUT gives one nearly the same power of a CUT in a lighter pkg which is easier on the turf.

Look around at the big 3's largest premium L&G tractors and in most cases an 18hp SCUT prices in lower but it has more capability and versatility.

The BX23 tain't a waste of time around my place....

Volfandt

But ti's basically the same price.
In very rare occasions as you show it is the perfect fit. But I think those cases are rare, thus for the same money MOST people go for the bigger tractor. Thus the point of my original post, what's the point? There are options for everything, but most people don't buy SCUT's, the market is limited.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[LoneCowboy]

Ok Mike,

Then, in your opinion, what demographic buys most of the SCUTS and where is the market GROWTH going to come from to support more models from other manufacturers? Who is going to buy the thousands of machines that must be sold to justify entry into this market? This is what a company will want to know (among other things). It's not the townhouse owner, or a guy on a 1/4 acre lot. Is it farmers? Is it landscape contractors? In my neck of the woods it's the 2 - 10 acre estate owners - and they are here by the thousands with more and more popping up every day. Maybe not all of them have huge houses. But, that's not the point. The point is that more and more land is being converted to 2 - 10 acre parcels where SCUTS are a good fit. Might be different where you are, I don't know. If you disagree, then who do you think is going to buy them such that there are more options for the consumer in this size machine?
?

I dunno, around here for 1 to 10 acre lots, most people have CUT's, not SCUT's
Which is my point. The market for SCUT's is "generally" (not always) probably smaller than 1 acre lots (or around there) who mow with some other capabilities.
That's a mighty expensive lawnmower.

Now mind you, my neighbor has 3/4 of an acre and has a 55hp CUT
Not sure why, but hey, ti's his money. The question was why isn't the SCUT market bigger, I think the market is limited.

 

[MessickFarmEqu]

You simply can not catagorize the SCUT owner. There are plumbers, electricians, landscapers, guys with 1/4 acre lots, guys with 150 acres, guys who make over 20,000/mo, guys who hardly get by... I've sold a tractor to all of them, and you'd be floored by how diverse the market is. I could not tell you who the primary buyer is.