Sanity Check - Kioti

[nards444]

You must be leasing cheap stripped down trucks with those payments of $450-$500 with no money down.Maybe I should redo my math then.When I looked into leasing with.$4,000-$5,000 down payments were still $600 plus per month on a 36 month lease.

No I would say middle of the road Ford's and Chevy, basically XLTs and LTs minus leather and sun roof, so your talking your high 40s to mid 50s MSRP trucks, All depends on time of year and shopping around too, never pay over invoice and shop multiple dealers. But if your talking loaded out Lariats and LTZ then sure, but the alternative is paying 800-900 per month for 84 months on those bad boys if you buy them. Rams got monster deals right now FWIW

Current lease started last AUG. Think the leased amount was right around $17k on a 54k MSRP truck I paid 48 for the truck. Split in 36 payments im actually at like 489 or something. Vs buying it at 60 months with 2.99% would have been 850 a month or 650 a month for an 84 month term, yeah no thanks.

PS no sense in down payments on a lease really, like I said earlier crash and total that truck day two its gone. Because of residual at least over the time frame of the lease so lets say three years your financing dollar for dollar cheaper then three years on a conventional loan, if that makes sense. Now of course your paying for something you never own and have to think about miles as every 1000 you go over is $250, but I know how many miles I drive which is never more than 13 or so a 15k mile lease has never been an issue

A lot of it is understanding residuals and what you are leasing, typically cars and cheap brands the lease amount per month sounds good but what you are actually paying for dollar for dollar is terrible. I don't know much about yota or titan, but the big three residuals on trucks are usually pretty good making what you paying dollar for dollar pretty good. Were in the middle of pricing an suv for the wife and we prices traverse on lease, my truck actually cost 12k more but leases out a ton better and over 3 years would end up paying 4-5k less on a truck vs that traverse.

 

[coobie]

No I would say middle of the road Ford's and Chevy, basically XLTs and LTs minus leather and sun roof, so your talking your high 40s to mid 50s MSRP trucks, All depends on time of year and shopping around too, never pay over invoice and shop multiple dealers. But if your talking loaded out Lariats and LTZ then sure, but the alternative is paying 800-900 per month for 84 months on those bad boys if you buy them. Rams got monster deals right now FWIW

Current lease started last AUG. Think the leased amount was right around $17k on a 54k MSRP truck I paid 48 for the truck. Split in 36 payments im actually at like 489 or something. Vs buying it at 60 months with 2.99% would have been 850 a month or 650 a month for an 84 month term, yeah no thanks.

PS no sense in down payments on a lease really, like I said earlier crash and total that truck day two its gone. Because of residual at least over the time frame of the lease so lets say three years your financing dollar for dollar cheaper then three years on a conventional loan, if that makes sense. Now of course your paying for something you never own and have to think about miles as every 1000 you go over is $250, but I know how many miles I drive which is never more than 13 or so a 15k mile lease has never been an issue

A lot of it is understanding residuals and what you are leasing, typically cars and cheap brands the lease amount per month sounds good but what you are actually paying for dollar for dollar is terrible. I don't know much about yota or titan, but the big three residuals on trucks are usually pretty good making what you paying dollar for dollar pretty good. Were in the middle of pricing an suv for the wife and we prices traverse on lease, my truck actually cost 12k more but leases out a ton better and over 3 years would end up paying 4-5k less on a truck vs that traverse.

Leased 1 time back in 2002 chevy 1500.That was enough for me I put on to many miles and don"t like the leasing terms.I buy new now and pay cash.To each his own that,s what makes the world spin around.

 

[nards444]

Leased 1 time back in 2002 chevy 1500.That was enough for me I put on to many miles and don"t like the leasing terms.I buy new now and pay cash.To each his own that,s what makes the world spin around.

Cash buyer and do to many miles then you would be correct lease isn't the way to go, even if I went over by 10,000 miles in three years that only adds 69 a month to my lease, still not that big of a deal. Although with the stock market how it is and interest rates still relatively low on auto loans, better of financing and using the cash to invest . Billionaires even take out loans because they make more money not using their own money and us their own money to invest. Even with the crap market this past fall my 401 still hauled in 8% over the last year, better off with an auto loan at around 3% and making 4-5% with my money

Either way nice car I got a 15 scat pack.

 

[coobie]

Cash buyer and do to many miles then you would be correct lease isn't the way to go, even if I went over by 10,000 miles in three years that only adds 69 a month to my lease, still not that big of a deal. Although with the stock market how it is and interest rates still relatively low on auto loans, better of financing and using the cash to invest . Billionaires even take out loans because they make more money not using their own money and us their own money to invest. Even with the crap market this past fall my 401 still hauled in 8% over the last year, better off with an auto loan at around 3% and making 4-5% with my money

Either way nice car I got a 15 scat pack.

Retired and still making $$ off our investments.No worries on this end.

 

[paulfun9]

My numbers add up if your talking the averages, averages are 12-15k miles a year, if you are the average you have almost 200k miles on your vehicle in which case you should have more than one set of tires and some brakes. My math doesn't take into account the odds and eachs or the guy that is only driving 2-3k miles a year. Also your talking about a truck that you purchased in 2003 which means it probably didn't cost over 30k and 0% interest rates, which i am comparing trucks that for the most part have been 40-50k for the last 5 years and 0% interest rates have all but disappeared in the last few years and your paying 3-5% for now.

My equation works if you hold on to the vehicle for 7 -10 years only and drive the average amount of miles a year and are comparing like vehicles with like purchase prices and comparing stuff in the last 5-10 years not almost two decades ago. If you purchase something to drive for 20 years and a million miles renting is a terrible idea.

And cost per mile vs cost per year can be one in the same or relevant. But when you talk cost per mile your also factoring in MPG, insurance etc which makes it a different ball game, again we are talking purchase price only.

So while I see where you are coming from and it probably works for you, but when comparing two things they have to be the same or similar, of which you are not doing. If we both started fresh today and both went and bought like trucks with like usage, I guarantee I either match or beat you for the next ten years in terms of purchase price only. Again people arent keeping vehicles 20 years data supports that, so your situation is not the norm.

First of all I pay cash so it doesn稚 matter to me what the interest rates are.
Secondly you assume that I only purchased one set of tires but I actually used a nice round number of 1000 dollars for each set the truck took since new right up to the last set which should have given you an advantage but it didn稚. Understand that even the tires last purchased didn稚 come close to a thousand dollars.
I also didn稚 look at my purchase price only the cost of maintenance items and break downs to see if your formula was correct.
Even at the exaggerated cost of the tires it didn稚 get anyplace close to the 10,000 difference you need to cover and there was an extra 6 years in my formula. Even with the battery that I think it will soon need we are not close.
You also don稚 need to take into account fuel used if you want to figure cost per mile to get a real comparison on the difference between a lease or purchase.


Now to your credit I do have one friend who has purchased and traded every 3 to 4 years since he was 18 years old. I can稚 understand for the life of me why he doesn稚 just lease as when I last did the averages on his spending I believe he gave away over 100,000 maybe a bit more.

 

[nards444]

First of all I pay cash so it doesn稚 matter to me what the interest rates are.
Secondly you assume that I only purchased one set of tires but I actually used a nice round number of 1000 dollars for each set the truck took since new right up to the last set which should have given you an advantage but it didn稚. Understand that even the tires last purchased didn稚 come close to a thousand dollars.
I also didn稚 look at my purchase price only the cost of maintenance items and break downs to see if your formula was correct.
Even at the exaggerated cost of the tires it didn稚 get anyplace close to the 10,000 difference you need to cover and there was an extra 6 years in my formula. Even with the battery that I think it will soon need we are not close.
You also don稚 need to take into account fuel used if you want to figure cost per mile to get a real comparison on the difference between a lease or purchase.


Now to your credit I do have one friend who has purchased and traded every 3 to 4 years since he was 18 years old. I can稚 understand for the life of me why he doesn稚 just lease as when I last did the averages on his spending I believe he gave away over 100,000 maybe a bit more.

You did claim you got 0%, and I was only pointing out that 0% doesn't exist anymore. The example I gave was a 5k difference not a 10 that I was trying to cover, but if your talking the 10k in equity that he might have thats really a factor on the next purchase not the initial 10 years in the example, we would have to do a 20-30 year. Either way your trying to compare a truck that was bought 16 years ago for probably 25k vs a truck that now cost 50k, your comparison into this situation just doesn't work, nor was I trying to compare to that. My comparison was two trucks bought for the same money in 2018-2019 with the same usage and the cost of ownership spread across 10 years, again the average length an American keeps a car is 6-7 years, so Im not even going to try to compare it to what you are doing. Plus I would like to see how many miles a year you put on that truck.

Second if I go back to my example of my buddy he paid 55 I paid 60, and we both drove 15k a year for 10 years, per mile I pay 40 cents a mile and he paid 36 cents. Lets not talk gas insurance etc, as that's relatively inherent costs with no use discussing. I pay 4 cents more a mile or 600 more a year, lets just say for a second my buddy has absolutely no maint cost for 10 years, I will gladly pay 600 more a year for 10 years to be into a new truck. But reality is he will have some maint cost over 10 years, those miles alone dictate he will need tires twice, which I don't know what tires your buying but around here your talking 1200-1500 a set, mounted. But even if we go with your number of 1000 a set that bumps up his cost to 38 cents per mile compared to my 40 cents a mile, again Ill gladly pay 2 cents more a mile or 300 a year to always be in a new truck. Reality is after 10 years it will be a wash one way or other, he benefits by maybe not having a payment for a year or two out of that ten years and not worrying about miles and possibly having some equity down the line. I benefit from never having to fork over for maint, always being in a new truck and maintaining a relatively consistent payment, best of all in 2-3 years the truck is somebody elses problem. End of the day really is wash, one way benefits some depending on circumstances the other does others.

You are right if your buying every two or three years, you are better off leasing.

 

[paulfun9]

I used your 50,000 as the cost of the truck to do my cost not what I paid for it 16 years ago.
What I found today is that my auto policy would be more with a lease than it is as an owner. Unsure of why but my local insurance agent said they almost always pay more with a lease. So we would now need to add that cost difference to things.
He also explained to me the cost of turning something in after the lease term with dings, dents, scratches or even a stain from accidentally spilling something. So now we need to add to this the cost of fixing every little thing as it happens or paying for it at the end.
So far no matter how I look at this or who I ask including people who currently lease and those who did but don’t anylonger I seem to get the same answer. Stay away from the lease unless you are the type that wants a new car every 2 or 3 years, plan to buy it outright at the end and are getting a deal on the lease to begin with (the claim from his person is it made the car more affordable this way as they couldn’t handle the financed cost now but will be at the end of the lease) (didn’t really make sense to me but didn’t wait for a full explanation) and someone who as you do claimed the cost is the same even with me paying cash but cautioned me against it due to my erratic mileage needs.

I really wanted to get a better understanding of a lease as I have never had one. In the end for me I doubt it would be a fit for me as I have a tendency to keep things forever or at least till I run out of room and honestly don’t generally finance things to begin with.

 

[nards444]

I used your 50,000 as the cost of the truck to do my cost not what I paid for it 16 years ago.
What I found today is that my auto policy would be more with a lease than it is as an owner. Unsure of why but my local insurance agent said they almost always pay more with a lease. So we would now need to add that cost difference to things.
He also explained to me the cost of turning something in after the lease term with dings, dents, scratches or even a stain from accidentally spilling something. So now we need to add to this the cost of fixing every little thing as it happens or paying for it at the end.
So far no matter how I look at this or who I ask including people who currently lease and those who did but don’t anylonger I seem to get the same answer. Stay away from the lease unless you are the type that wants a new car every 2 or 3 years, plan to buy it outright at the end and are getting a deal on the lease to begin with (the claim from his person is it made the car more affordable this way as they couldn’t handle the financed cost now but will be at the end of the lease) (didn’t really make sense to me but didn’t wait for a full explanation) and someone who as you do claimed the cost is the same even with me paying cash but cautioned me against it due to my erratic mileage needs.

I really wanted to get a better understanding of a lease as I have never had one. In the end for me I doubt it would be a fit for me as I have a tendency to keep things forever or at least till I run out of room and honestly don’t generally finance things to begin with.

Everybodys situation is different, But my only point was comparing methods and really running numbers may benefit some people or at least financially be a wash. Everybody's got opinions including banks, car dealers, and agents. Just the way the world works. Everybody needs to think of purchase price, cost to own and maintain, and what does this purchase mean 5-10-20 years down the road. I find the way people buy cars is a lot like oil or what battery to buy, people swear by what they do and will not see anything different. Some say cash only, I say if your well off enough to drop 50k go for it but myself Id make more money using somebody elses money, some say loans because of miles etc etc, which fits for some people, some people say leasing only, but I say be careful what you wish for. In my mind though leasing is no different than taking a loan out short of the miles, on a loan its not yours until its paid off.

I will tell you from my experience, I actually owned a 15 F150 that I got rid of and got back to leasing for my 18 ford, the 18 is actually $8 cheaper per month in insurance. Also we have never paid anything at the end of the lease for damage, but we also take care of our stuff. But damages to something you own will cost you anyways, you'll either fix it and pay for anyways or you'll pay for it in depreciation, unless you keep something forever until its not worth anything anyways.

I just go back to purchasing a truck today is much different than 20 years ago, having to cough up 50 or throw down 7-800 a month for 5-7 years is a pretty big decision. Ive just chosen to cough up the 50k over 7-10 years and always be in new, in doing so which has some upsides and a few down as well. If you dont fit the averages then leasing probably isn't for you. End of the day if you fit the averages in terms of use and what not, most if it will be wash, just depends on how you want to get there.

 

[rScotty]

For the person like myself who tends to choose carefully and keep things forever, there is one argument in favor of leasing that I hadn't considered....

It is that a lease can be considered an extended trial period & without restrictions. Better than rental, since with leasing I know the vehicle history since new, and at the end of the lease I am in an excellent bargaining position to buy it and keep it.

And if I didn't, then I'm in an equally good position to try something else.
rScotty

 

[nards444]

For the person like myself who tends to choose carefully and keep things forever, there is one argument in favor of leasing that I hadn't considered....

It is that a lease can be considered an extended trial period & without restrictions. Better than rental, since with leasing I know the vehicle history since new, and at the end of the lease I am in an excellent bargaining position to buy it and keep it.

And if I didn't, then I'm in an equally good position to try something else.
rScotty

Yes this is another point, its not always the case though. Typically high residual vehicles are pricey to buy at the end, unless you got a super deal or a lot off up front. But there are situations where leasing and then buying that are quite advantageous. But like you said if its not, then 3 years down the road its no longer your problem.

 

[paulfun9]

The small dings, scratches that were explained to me wouldn’t deter anyone from buying it as used and probably would be overlooked by most looking for a work truck. Again everyone is different and I know some people would spend the money to fix even the smallest imperfection that happened. To understand me you must understand my car is immaculate but my truck is for work not like many of the buyers who really do not need a truck. To begin with. Let’s see the type, they tow once a year for only a few miles, did a remodel once on thier House ten years ago and think they might have to do an other some day, the wife who never used the bed once, can’t park the damm thing anyway but thinks because it has 4 doors and the kids are growing it’s a good Idea because her husband needs one for his work so why not her.

I looked at a truck yesterday with a friend and thought why bother, it had so many doo dads and options with such a fancy interior I would be afraid to get it dirty at the cost. What I found even more baffling was the owner of it for 2 years had to stop and think about how to make many of the options work as he didn’t seem to use most of them that he showed us. He also had to pull over to the side of the road to turn off the heat when requested as it wasn’t just a knob, he had to hit buttons, then use the touch screen but still didn’t really seem to know how to adjust the fan speed. All I could think was why would anyone in thier right mind want to have to deal with such a complex system for something that should be so simple.

Anyway I will be going to the dealership this week sometime with that same friend when he looks at new trucks and just for giggles I will be getting a price on a lease. Like I said I am a curious person and I want to see what a similar truck would cost as a new lease compared to what the used one we looked at and made on offer on would sell for if he buys that one.

 

[nards444]

The small dings, scratches that were explained to me wouldn稚 deter anyone from buying it as used and probably would be overlooked by most looking for a work truck. Again everyone is different and I know some people would spend the money to fix even the smallest imperfection that happened. To understand me you must understand my car is immaculate but my truck is for work not like many of the buyers who really do not need a truck. To begin with. Let痴 see the type, they tow once a year for only a few miles, did a remodel once on thier House ten years ago and think they might have to do an other some day, the wife who never used the bed once, can稚 park the damm thing anyway but thinks because it has 4 doors and the kids are growing it痴 a good Idea because her husband needs one for his work so why not her.

I looked at a truck yesterday with a friend and thought why bother, it had so many doo dads and options with such a fancy interior I would be afraid to get it dirty at the cost. What I found even more baffling was the owner of it for 2 years had to stop and think about how to make many of the options work as he didn稚 seem to use most of them that he showed us. He also had to pull over to the side of the road to turn off the heat when requested as it wasn稚 just a knob, he had to hit buttons, then use the touch screen but still didn稚 really seem to know how to adjust the fan speed. All I could think was why would anyone in thier right mind want to have to deal with such a complex system for something that should be so simple.

Anyway I will be going to the dealership this week sometime with that same friend when he looks at new trucks and just for giggles I will be getting a price on a lease. Like I said I am a curious person and I want to see what a similar truck would cost as a new lease compared to what the used one we looked at and made on offer on would sell for if he buys that one.

Yeah usually with leases anything that fits inside of like a 3-4in circle is not held against you. But I am the type new, old, leased owned it gets a ding it gets fixed, OCD I guess. yeah the 50k grocery getters is nuts I shake my head too, just like the 60-70k super dutys to haul around wheel barrows and small trailers, but to each their own.

Trucks do have a lot of crap in them these days, no ways around it. I would gander that if you went with a brand new truck these days non work truck version but still bottom of the line truck with 4x4 and cab your all of in the mid 30s for one of them easy. We bought work trucks at work and they were still 28-30k.

 

[prof fate]

My girlfriend has had her 25 acre horse farm for 20 years. Other than lawn mowing she's hired it all out - brush hogging the pasture weeds, driveway work, trees, any digging, post holes, etc.

I come along and it's harder to get someone to brush hog, i'm a mechanic - lets get a tractor! 22k later...plus implements (2k? 3k? 4k? most used..afraid to add it up) and well, we're not paying for snow removal or brush hogging.

Where the 'value' lies is in all the other stuff we can do - move round bales, level dirt, move compost (aka manure), built an arena (leveling, grading, post holes, moving lumber, etc).

Instead of 3 brush hogs a year we can do it monthly - fewer weeds, better pasture.

I've put 210 hours on the tractor in 10 1/2 months - 4 or 5 of them being winter.

A friend has a rental property and bought a new mower for there. Why? Cheaper than a trailer and hitch to move his mower there weekly. I guess he coulda hired it out, but the mower is $175...paying to have it mowed is way more than that, even allowing for his time to mow it.

I've bought a lot of tools over the years, and the ones that stayed on to become a part of our rural lifestyle are the tools we bought for quality, not price. I'd like to say that was a conscious decision, but it wasn't. It's only in looking back that I am finally realizing how true it is.

Several posters talk about the economics of investment. That hits home, because we keep good enough records so that I'm absolutely positive that for what I've spent in backhoes attachments alone over the past 50 years I could have saved substantial dollars by simply hiring the work done. No question about that. In fact, I refuse to look too closely because the same probably applies to a lot of our tractor work.....half of it at least.

All I would have missed would be the fun of planning these jobs followed by the enjoyment of doing them myself at my own convenience in my own way on my own land and being able to share these projects with friends and family.

When money is scarce we generally fix up used equipment to work. That's easy to do; anyone who has the need can do the same.
rScotty

 

[borderm3]

LOL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!

This got super off topic, but since we are here. I actually have an opinion on the matter. I am a big car guy, had a shop, worked in pro racing many years, fix my own, etc. The problem with purchasing NEWER cars is that they are an ENORMOUS liability. Especially any luxury cars, most new cars have 40+ computers, complex canbus systems, and the more trinkets the more things that fail. You can no longer work on them yourself, and many times when something fails you have to buy brand new at the dealer and have *THEM* recode it to your VIN. The days where you had a reliable car that you could make last are largely over. Ergo, cars have became an enormous liability. They aren't made to last anymore, so the guy who has a car after the lease has a POS that is going to drain his wallet. Go look around at any Chevy Truck from the early 2010's they all have rusting fenders, rockers, and frames; That's not even going into the electronics part of things. The only vehicles I would ever buy are Toyotas or Hondas and it shows in their resale value. Go look at the prices of 3 year old Cadillac's. Also, in the case of expensive luxury vehicles the residuals are often so good that you can lease something for MUCH cheaper than you would buy it. E.g. you can lease a brand new BMW M3 (MSRP ~80k) for $750 a month, LITERALLY, the only thing you pay for is tires and gasoline. They change oil, brakes, etc. This means you can reliably budget without any surprises. You also have no dead weight at the table when you want to get your next car, a trade in is always a bargaining chip for the dealer. "Oh, look at this scratch, this ding, tires are worn, spot here, etc.." I happened to just had this conversation with a friend of the family, they wanted to trade in their Toyota Highlander and buy a Lincon or a Cadillac because they were in their budget at 20k. I explained that they have to think of the position they will be in 3-6 years from now when they want another car and they will be upside down with the Cadillac, of course they ended up buying the Cadillac.

One thing I am learning in life is you can only guide people, you can't make decisions for them. JUST like how I will end up buying a tractor despite renting might be a tad cheaper (In my case). Speaking of, back on topic. I have about half an acre of woods to clear out, grade, and put parking/garage there, dig out for a retaining wall, grade, put in a couple hundred feet of drainage, dig quite a few stumps out, mow my grass (I currently pay about $600 a year), dig for electrical conduit to fix lamps up my driveway, dig out something in my yard, plow, and salt in the winter. Not to mention help my dad with many things in his property as he is getting a little old in age. He grew up on a farm and is really excited about me getting a tractor. For me, there are a few more elements other than money involved here. There is a great deal of gratification I get for doing something myself and seeing the results. I just didn't want to be over my *** with the tractor like I am with this side by side. Does this make any sense to anyone else?

 

[rScotty]

Anyway I will be going to the dealership this week sometime with that same friend when he looks at new trucks and just for giggles I will be getting a price on a lease. Like I said I am a curious person and I want to see what a similar truck would cost as a new lease compared to what the used one we looked at and made on offer on would sell for if he buys that one.

I'll be curious to hear what you find out.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

LOL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!

This got super off topic, but since we are here. I actually have an opinion on the matter. I am a big car guy, had a shop, worked in pro racing many years, fix my own, etc. The problem with purchasing NEWER cars is that they are an ENORMOUS liability. Especially any luxury cars, most new cars have 40+ computers, complex canbus systems, and the more trinkets the more things that fail. You can no longer work on them yourself, and many times when something fails you have to buy brand new at the dealer and have *THEM* recode it to your VIN. The days where you had a reliable car that you could make last are largely over. Ergo, cars have became an enormous liability. They aren't made to last anymore, so the guy who has a car after the lease has a POS that is going to drain his wallet. Go look around at any Chevy Truck from the early 2010's they all have rusting fenders, rockers, and frames; That's not even going into the electronics part of things. The only vehicles I would ever buy are Toyotas or Hondas and it shows in their resale value. Go look at the prices of 3 year old Cadillac's. Also, in the case of expensive luxury vehicles the residuals are often so good that you can lease something for MUCH cheaper than you would buy it. E.g. you can lease a brand new BMW M3 (MSRP ~80k) for $750 a month, LITERALLY, the only thing you pay for is tires and gasoline. They change oil, brakes, etc. This means you can reliably budget without any surprises. You also have no dead weight at the table when you want to get your next car, a trade in is always a bargaining chip for the dealer. "Oh, look at this scratch, this ding, tires are worn, spot here, etc.." I happened to just had this conversation with a friend of the family, they wanted to trade in their Toyota Highlander and buy a Lincon or a Cadillac because they were in their budget at 20k. I explained that they have to think of the position they will be in 3-6 years from now when they want another car and they will be upside down with the Cadillac, of course they ended up buying the Cadillac.

One thing I am learning in life is you can only guide people, you can't make decisions for them. JUST like how I will end up buying a tractor despite renting might be a tad cheaper (In my case). Speaking of, back on topic. I have about half an acre of woods to clear out, grade, and put parking/garage there, dig out for a retaining wall, grade, put in a couple hundred feet of drainage, dig quite a few stumps out, mow my grass (I currently pay about $600 a year), dig for electrical conduit to fix lamps up my driveway, dig out something in my yard, plow, and salt in the winter. Not to mention help my dad with many things in his property as he is getting a little old in age. He grew up on a farm and is really excited about me getting a tractor. For me, there are a few more elements other than money involved here. There is a great deal of gratification I get for doing something myself and seeing the results. I just didn't want to be over my *** with the tractor like I am with this side by side. Does this make any sense to anyone else?

The best conversations do tend to wander around. Lots of it is pertinent, though - renting vs hiring vs buying for certain projects for instance. I'm thinking of that 150 feet of wall.
Did you ever go try out those CK se and hst Kiotis? And I still think that you should rent for a day to a week before buying.

For a Cadillac type of machine for the person who mentions lots of dirt work but is not looking to do any mowing , I like the Kubota B26 TLB with BH thumb and 3pt kit. The huge downside to that machine is that is is very expensive - especially as compared with the CKs you priced with similar capability. But by trying one of each out you would at least know what that feels like on slopes and when moving dirt. I think you'd learn more in a day that way than any other.
rScotty

 

[nards444]

LOL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!

This got super off topic, but since we are here. I actually have an opinion on the matter. I am a big car guy, had a shop, worked in pro racing many years, fix my own, etc. The problem with purchasing NEWER cars is that they are an ENORMOUS liability. Especially any luxury cars, most new cars have 40+ computers, complex canbus systems, and the more trinkets the more things that fail. You can no longer work on them yourself, and many times when something fails you have to buy brand new at the dealer and have *THEM* recode it to your VIN. The days where you had a reliable car that you could make last are largely over. Ergo, cars have became an enormous liability. They aren't made to last anymore, so the guy who has a car after the lease has a POS that is going to drain his wallet. Go look around at any Chevy Truck from the early 2010's they all have rusting fenders, rockers, and frames; That's not even going into the electronics part of things. The only vehicles I would ever buy are Toyotas or Hondas and it shows in their resale value. Go look at the prices of 3 year old Cadillac's. Also, in the case of expensive luxury vehicles the residuals are often so good that you can lease something for MUCH cheaper than you would buy it. E.g. you can lease a brand new BMW M3 (MSRP ~80k) for $750 a month, LITERALLY, the only thing you pay for is tires and gasoline. They change oil, brakes, etc. This means you can reliably budget without any surprises. You also have no dead weight at the table when you want to get your next car, a trade in is always a bargaining chip for the dealer. "Oh, look at this scratch, this ding, tires are worn, spot here, etc.." I happened to just had this conversation with a friend of the family, they wanted to trade in their Toyota Highlander and buy a Lincon or a Cadillac because they were in their budget at 20k. I explained that they have to think of the position they will be in 3-6 years from now when they want another car and they will be upside down with the Cadillac, of course they ended up buying the Cadillac.

One thing I am learning in life is you can only guide people, you can't make decisions for them. JUST like how I will end up buying a tractor despite renting might be a tad cheaper (In my case). Speaking of, back on topic. I have about half an acre of woods to clear out, grade, and put parking/garage there, dig out for a retaining wall, grade, put in a couple hundred feet of drainage, dig quite a few stumps out, mow my grass (I currently pay about $600 a year), dig for electrical conduit to fix lamps up my driveway, dig out something in my yard, plow, and salt in the winter. Not to mention help my dad with many things in his property as he is getting a little old in age. He grew up on a farm and is really excited about me getting a tractor. For me, there are a few more elements other than money involved here. There is a great deal of gratification I get for doing something myself and seeing the results. I just didn't want to be over my *** with the tractor like I am with this side by side. Does this make any sense to anyone else?

Kind of what I was getting it and comparing vehicles to 20 years ago just doesn't work. Although data suggest cars as a whole as in power train wise and quality are actually much better cars and more reliable, the issue comes in as you said is the electronics and the fact that a car has 30-40% more parts than it used to.

Leases come with their own problems if you drive 20k a year, then its going to cost you, also end of the day you are stuck with a payment if you come on hard times.

But with that all said when you look at the equation holistically everything you said is true. I think eventually car ownership is going to die off in a few ways. Leasing is only going to get more prevalent believe its close to 40% as it is. This is a big gander but I think ride sharing is going to transform into car sharing. Uber and others are already experimenting or looking into car sharing, as in you order a car and its dropped off for when you want it. If I look at it from my perspective, we need two cars 5 days a week, we only need most of the time on the weekends, don't need two cars sitting while on vacation etc, realistically I dont need two cars one third of the year, what if that cut my overall payment on one car by a third. Dig even further I really need that second car for roughly 8-9 hours a day, what if I dont have to pay for it for the other 16 hours of the day. This is assuming a lot, but if you look at whats out there changes are coming, you also look at the continual rise of vehicle prices, give it another decade or so, nobody will be buying them any longer.

Purchasing habits in general have changed mainly due to cost. Not a ding to older folks things are simply not the same. For those that are retired and financially set the old way of paying cash etc probably doesnt affect them much because they have the means to do so, but being younger and middle aged the ball game is much different. Although there is some inflation, overall I make a lot more money then my parents did but I look back to the late 80s early 90s growing up and what they paid for things. Roughly 140k for a custom 1600Sqft home, Im in the middle of building now and granted im going bigger, but a 1600 sq ft home would probably cost me close to 250. My parents bought cars for 6-8k and trucks for 10-12, now they are 35-50, gas was 80 cents its now 3 bucks. Wages simply havent kept up and you have buy things differently now days

 

[MaineGuy1]

LOL GUYS!!!!!!!!!!

This got super off topic, but since we are here. I actually have an opinion on the matter. I am a big car guy, had a shop, worked in pro racing many years, fix my own, etc. The problem with purchasing NEWER cars is that they are an ENORMOUS liability. Especially any luxury cars, most new cars have 40+ computers, complex canbus systems, and the more trinkets the more things that fail. You can no longer work on them yourself, and many times when something fails you have to buy brand new at the dealer and have *THEM* recode it to your VIN. The days where you had a reliable car that you could make last are largely over. Ergo, cars have became an enormous liability. They aren't made to last anymore, so the guy who has a car after the lease has a POS that is going to drain his wallet. Go look around at any Chevy Truck from the early 2010's they all have rusting fenders, rockers, and frames; That's not even going into the electronics part of things. The only vehicles I would ever buy are Toyotas or Hondas and it shows in their resale value. Go look at the prices of 3 year old Cadillac's. Also, in the case of expensive luxury vehicles the residuals are often so good that you can lease something for MUCH cheaper than you would buy it. E.g. you can lease a brand new BMW M3 (MSRP ~80k) for $750 a month, LITERALLY, the only thing you pay for is tires and gasoline. They change oil, brakes, etc. This means you can reliably budget without any surprises. You also have no dead weight at the table when you want to get your next car, a trade in is always a bargaining chip for the dealer. "Oh, look at this scratch, this ding, tires are worn, spot here, etc.." I happened to just had this conversation with a friend of the family, they wanted to trade in their Toyota Highlander and buy a Lincon or a Cadillac because they were in their budget at 20k. I explained that they have to think of the position they will be in 3-6 years from now when they want another car and they will be upside down with the Cadillac, of course they ended up buying the Cadillac.

One thing I am learning in life is you can only guide people, you can't make decisions for them. JUST like how I will end up buying a tractor despite renting might be a tad cheaper (In my case). Speaking of, back on topic. I have about half an acre of woods to clear out, grade, and put parking/garage there, dig out for a retaining wall, grade, put in a couple hundred feet of drainage, dig quite a few stumps out, mow my grass (I currently pay about $600 a year), dig for electrical conduit to fix lamps up my driveway, dig out something in my yard, plow, and salt in the winter. Not to mention help my dad with many things in his property as he is getting a little old in age. He grew up on a farm and is really excited about me getting a tractor. For me, there are a few more elements other than money involved here. There is a great deal of gratification I get for doing something myself and seeing the results. I just didn't want to be over my *** with the tractor like I am with this side by side. Does this make any sense to anyone else?

I understand what you are saying about working on older vehicles but the facts are not on your side about longevity. Cars today last longer than the cars from the good ole days.
Cars now last longer than ever -- will yours? - CBS News

 

[borderm3]

Hey guys, I decided to go with a Kubota B2650, the tractors loader operated much better than the Kioti does. For whatever reason it is much easier to mix functions with the Kubota loader, it is also much more responsive than the Kioti loader, unless I really rev up the Kioti. The only downside is that the Kubota's front loader lifts much less on paper than the Kioti. All in all, I feel like this is a good compromise for my needs since the backhoe is what I will use the most.

Another factor was that the Kioti dealer here had only 3 tractors where as the Kubota dealer had about 50. Many Kubota's used with good resale in the area where as Kioti hasn't made a name yet here.

I really wanted to work with the local Kubota dealer as they were very nice, but they said they would be losing money if they dropped the price from msrp and I dind't want to get into that rigmarole with them. So, I called Messick's, which is about two hours from me, they made a good deal off the bat and offered to deliver it free of charge.

Thanks for the help.
Chris

 

[rScotty]

Hey, that's great. It's been a good discussion and sounds like a nifty machine. I've also found that on my Kubota the Kubota loader & backhoe controls are accurate and responsive - in fact, better than on my commercial TLB.
Were you able to get all the accessories you wanted? Any questions there?
rScotty