Sales tax or income tax?

   / Sales tax or income tax? #41  
Just found another site that discusses a national sales tax in which there would be no payroll taxes for FICA and Medicare, but in this proposal the national sales tax rate would be 23% plus the state taxes, or more than 30% in many cases.

One of the ways that people with means accumulate those assets is careful management of their money. While there are plenty of spendthrifts who blow lots of money to keep up with the Joneses, there are more people who judge their purchases based on value. I'm the type of person who goes to fairly extensive lengths to avoid taxes; Judge Learned Hand pointed out that we have a duty to do so. If there was a combined national and state tax of 30% on purchases, I would have to severely moderate my purchases, because there that much of an increase in price places an enormous burden on value. That $100 fishing rod, costing $107 with current sales tax, suddenly doesn't look as appealing at $130. I would either buy a less expensive item or consider eliminating the purchase entirely. If I can avoid giving the government my money by simply moderating or avoiding a purchase, I'd jump on the opportunity.

I don't think I'd be alone; therefore my prediction would be that non-essential spending would drop drastically, tax revenues would plummet, and either the tax rate would have to be increased or alternate forms of taxation would have to be found.

As a case in point, I used to live in Massachusetts in the '60's, where licquor sales were in state stores, and were highly taxed. The legislation kept raising the tax rate, until it reached a critical point -- prices were so high, including taxes, that people simply stopped buying as much booze, and tax revenues went down -- way down! I predict a similar thing would happen if there was a national sales tax on top of the state taxes.
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #42  
Wow, I just found another site proposing a national sales tax on only new items -- no used items would be taxed. You know, I just might have to jump on this band wagon, after all. How great would that be for avoiding taxes? I already buy a fair amount of used stuff; with a tax like that, I'd never buy anything new, again! My tax liability would be zero. Hello, thrift shops and EBay. Goodbye, taxes.

The same site, however, extended the national sales tax to new homes. Can you imagine what a 23% tax on a new house would do to the new home construction market? Down the toilet...

On further reflection, I guess I wouldn't support it, after all. Pretty soon, there would be nothing available, because with everyone buying used, manufacturing would be in the tank, and new stuff wouldn't be available to turn into used stuff.
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #43  
Don, I read a lot of pro's and con's on this issue, and then I went to the horses mouth to get my facts. Here is a link to the bill as it is presently before congress.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:H.R.25:
I read the whole bill, and here is what I get from it.
1. They are calling it 23% inclusive, which means that it is actually 29.9% tax added to the price.
2. Yes it is only on new items, but that also includes houses and groceries.
3. Large corporations are exempt on anything that they can claim to be infurtherance of their business. ie. new equipment, company cars, planes, vacations etc.
4. The 23% is for 2005 only and will have to be readjusted each year (with no maximun increase)
5. When figuring this 23...29.9% they took actual tax revenues needed now, and calculated sales to determine the rate.
6. Among the sales used in determining this rate, they included ALL GOVERNMENT purchases, local, state and federal. This includes military spending.
7. At the way this % is figured, by 2007 the rate would most likely be in excess of 48%
8. And lets not forget that they want to CUT your social security benefits!
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #44  
My vote is for a flat rate income tax, no exemptions, no deductions, for personal income tax only, not corporate.

Would save a lot on IRS personnel costs, HR block would spend their last dime defeating it though.
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #45  
Wow! I'd love that! I'd incorporate so fast you couldn't blink, and transfer every dang thing I own to the corporation. All of my investments, with dividends, interest and rents, would go to the corporation and therefore be tax-free. The only personal income I'd have would be Social Security, and with the power of the senior's lobby, there's little likelihood that would be 100% taxed (which would be the first exemption in your exemption-free proposal). Then, the corporation would use it's income to pay all of the bills associated with the corporation (additional investments, capital expenditures like a tractor, tools, furniture, office equipment, maintenance, insurance, taxes, transportation, etc). What money is left would be spent by the corporation on travel and entertaining for clients of the corporation (me). I would need to spend nothing except food and clothing, which would easily be covered by my Social Security (which I can't quickly figure a way to transfer to the corporation).

Since there would be no corporate taxes, there would be no need for profit/loss tests, etc. on the corporation.

It might need some fine-tuning, but the basic idea would work. Let's face it. No matter WHAT anyone proposes, there will ALWAYS be someone like me who will find a way around it.
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #46  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Would save a lot on IRS personnel costs)</font>

The IRS is not as big as some people think, and personnel costs are just a tiny bit of their budget.

Remember, they too have an accounting staff... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

-Mike Z. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
   / Sales tax or income tax? #47  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="blue"> I don't think I'd be alone; therefore my prediction would be that non-essential spending would drop drastically, tax revenues would plummet, and either the tax rate would have to be increased or alternate forms of taxation would have to be found. </font> )</font>

Don, you're exactly right. I lived in the UK when Value Added Tax (VAT) was introduced at 7-1/2% with no corresponding cut in income tax, or any other tax. It was just an aditional tax to raise revenue. The problem with it is that once the infrastructure is in place to collect the tax, increasing it requires no additional expenditure on the governments part. VAT now stands at 17-1/2% on purchases and that is on top of all the other taxes that you pay. Now you know why things are so expensve over there. As the purchasing power of your income goes down and you spend less, the government increases the tax to maintain its cash flow ... with no upper limit apart from rebellion by the people.
 

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