Removing exhaust header type, studs

[Richard]

Well, my stud removal tool should be here soon and I'll make an attempt to remove them later tonight, or Saturday.

Any pointers to remove them? I've been soaking them down with PB blaster for about 1 1/2 weeks now, hitting them couple times during day. I've also sprayed them with engine cold AND with engine hot.

I can do all this (attempt removal) with engine either way. I've contemplated taking machine out to get up to working temperature, come home, shut down, then spray more PB blaster on studs to cool (shrink??) them a bit and see what happens.

I've never done this, so any tricks that tend to be more useful than less useful?

OH, because it's actually on the TURBO, and not the exhaust manifold, I've been able to get some PB blaster into the BACK side of the threaded hole also. My goal is to do my best to soak it from both sides but of course, I have no idea if it's getting in all the way.

Thanks

 

[Junkman]

You don't mention what the material is that the studs are stuck in. I have successfully removed many studs that have broken off on the exhaust logs on my Corvair. I remove the log so I can put it in the vise to hold. Then I heat the ear that the stud is in till it is cherry red. I grab the stud with a cold (right out of the freezer) vice grip as close to the ear as possible. Then I work the stud back and forth. This cleans the threads so the rest of them don't bind on the way out. If the stud stops moving, then I reheat and grab another pair of vice grips. The cold vice grips will shrink the hot stud and the cherry red ear has expanded. This allows me to remove studs that have been broken for years and rusted to the point that there is barely any metal left. If the housing that you are working on is made of aluminum, then you will have problems. I have a stud remover and have never found that it is of much value in most instances. They work great on new studs, but terrible on old rusted ones...

 

[Richard]

uh oh... you're deflating my eagerness.

The material? Not sure, probably some kind of iron? the studs themselves are in the turbo.

(start the music now)

The turbo is conneced to the manifold...the manifold is connected to the engine block... and we twist it all about /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ok, I got carried away, apologies.

Anyway, if the studs snap (my expectations) I'll have to remove the turbo. To remove turbo, I'll have four MORE rusted bolts/studs to deal with. If I snap one of them, I'll have to take the manifold off and yes... it too, is full of rusted bolts.

What is annoying about this, is my loader arms. They're smack dab in the way. I might take it over to mild hill so I can rest them on hill, yet more out of the way. It's a real pain in hiney to work THROUGH the arms when trying to do the work.

I don't have any kind of torch other than a solder torch (mapp gas) for plumbing. I've heated it with that, but I doubt it would make it glowing hot. Furthermore, I'm a bit nervous making the turbo that hot out of risk of toasting the bearings??

(is that a reasonable concern?)

If the studs snap, my intent is to try to just take the silly thing off & take to machine shop and let them do my cussing for me. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Von]

Richard,
I have removed header studs on Porsches many times by heating the stud with the nut still on cherry red hot and then removing them. They have all come right out and I have never broken one! (Have done this at least 100 times) I then replace the stud with a new one for the next time. Remember to just heat the stud and nut not the housing. Might work for you.

 

[MicroPilot]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ... Remember to just heat the stud and nut not the housing....)</font>

That just totally sounds wrong and is opposite everything I've ever been told and done to remove stuck hardware. How could this work?

 

[Henro]

<font color="blue"> I have removed header studs on Porsches many times by heating the stud with the nut still on cherry red hot and then removing them. </font>

Wait a minute! That should not work!

Oh, I forgot...the man with the Unimog rules... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[Von]

Well it works on Porsches because the expansion coefficient is different in the alloy heads and the steel studs. The heads expand faster and more than the steel. Like I said works everytime! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Richard]

Although that sounds backwards to me too, your explination of the co-efficient stuff makes sense also.

given that, would it not have been more efficient (with Porches) to heat AROUND the bolt and try to leave the bolt cold, relative to surrounding?

Anyway, be that as it may... wouldn't you know a thunderstorm has rolled in and is currently washing away my driveway. When it clears up, I'll try one, or have to wait until weekend.

/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[beenthere]

I watched a fellow at an engine shop remove studs from an iron engine block that was going to be steam cleaned, dipped, or whatever. He took a torch and heated each stud real hot (seems it was cherry red) and then touched the hot stud with a wax candle. Apparently that wax quickly cooled the stud, and the melted wax penetrated along the threads at the same time. He would take just a pair of pliers, and turn the stud out. They were actually loose. I was amazed. I had grown accustomed to breaking the studs off, and then drilling out the center to insert an 'easy out' which usually worked. Broke my share of 'easy outs' too, and sometimes had to drill the hole bigger so that just the threads were showing, and then using a tap to clean out the threads.

 

[Richard]

We have success /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif sorta /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I've left off some of the sordid details, but I'll share them now.

Other day I knew I needed a stud remover, so went to local stores to find one, FINALLY got one at auto store (approx $40). Got it home, and it didn't work, stud too short for it. Soooooo, stopped (different town) at another auto store, got some kind of reversing things, that go OVER the nut (or stud he said) and it screws itself ONTO the offending offender ($35).

Got home and of course, not only did it not work, it is not returnable (can't blame them...THEY don't know I'm still stuck)

Anyway, find the one on EBAY. buy it, get it. Send the guy via UPS overnight, a cashiers check for $7!! with a return overnight inside. (this tool if you saw my earlier post, WILL take a flush stud out). Great!! I'm a happy camper. I send out on Monday, he'll get/return tuesday and I'll have it Wednesday.

Wrong

UPS dropped the ball (sorry UPS) and never delivered it to him. They suggested I resend blah blah. Then yesterday evening, it finally showed up, so he sent it back to me.

Well, of all things, it never arrived. Seems UPS had some aircraft problems on the way to somewhere. I was ready to receive it BEFORE 10:30 today, but of course, it did not arrive.

I called and.. well, "spoke" with them a bit, realizing it was not the fault of anyone per se, so I bit my tongue.

It finally showed up today at 4:00, just in time for me to leave, borrow uncles truck to go pick up my new air compressor!!! DOWNPOUR while getting compressor...sigh, will it never end.

I get home will all my goodies, just KNOWING that little wormy stud is going to JUMP off like melted ice cream. I put the remover on it, and it too, spins off the stud /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

I try it on all of them and same result.

I'm about ready to go buy yet ANOTHER one ($60) that LOOKS mean & wicked... but I decide to try again

moooooovement....

wha?

I try again... sure enough, I have some MOVEMENT!! YAHOO

I turn again and snapola, all the movement was the stud shearing /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif (I'm actually kinda laughing at my string of luck)

Ok.. now I KNOW I gotta get turbo off and to shop so THEY can take it out without damaging it. Small problem... it's connected by 4 bolts, just as old/rusted.

hmm.. those exhaust manifold nuts look reachable...(and I've been spraying them TOO, 'just in case')...sooooooo let's try one

squeeeeeeeek it moved!

try the next

grunt... grunt.... squeeeeeeeeeeek !! HA...2 in a row

next

grunt... squeeeeeeeeeek!! whoooooo hoo..this is looking too easy all the sudden. Hmm.. one more to go, and of course, I can't get access to it without taking the intake off the turbo.

off it goes.

I try it...squeeeeeeeeeeeeeak

!!!

now, I have to remove the fuel line (sprayer for cold starts), remove oil supply line, air boot, oil return

Upshot, I finally have the turbo/manifold assembly off in it's entirety. I'm going to just take it, along with a new replacement bolt to machine shop and say "how much".

Anyone want to buy 1, 2 or perhaps 3 stud removal tools?

volume discount!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[higgy]

We are pulling for you Richard!

Those bolts and studs are a pain for sure.

Good luck!

 

[GerardC]

Question? Is it possible that they may be a left hand thread? G

 

[mrcaptainbob]

Well, glad that SOMETHING went right! (well, sorta). I've always questioned those stud removers. If the head wasn't strong enough to overcome those threads being rusted.....can't imagine using any other appliance to get it out. I agree with that heat-till-red-and-touch-candle-to-it. Only I use PB. That gets down there even better. Most likely, cherry red, PB and ice cold vicegrips. Yikes! What a recipe!

 

[MicroPilot]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( ...Only I use PB.... )</font>


What is PB? Peanut Butter? /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Actually I kinda know what it is, something along the lines of Kroil, etc. a penetrating oil, but don't know specifically what PB stands for or who makes it.

 

[BubbaJr]

PB Blaster is a "Powerful penetrating catalyst" made by B'laster / B.C.C.I. from Cleveland Ohio, 1-800-858-6605. There are all kinds of claims on the can for what it can accomplish. I've used it several times, and most of the time it will work, but not always. It's worth it to have a can around though. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[SPIKER]

yep: PB is some good $hit manard!" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ye had it around hewre for years and years, out west I never saw any, unless you mail ordered form Summit racing.

when getting out rusted in studs, hard one. Heat the stud untill cherry, cool like said above, (never tried the candle but was told BEE'S wax worked great.) actually specifically HEATING the HOLE makes it tighter on the STUD (metal expands in all dirrections, which includes tighter onto the stud!) found this out when working for US AF metals guy in the machine shop was a room mate for a bit. he re-did my boat motor free well I paid all parts from dealer but he installed all new helicoils where needed..

I painted his car so I guess it was a wash /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Alum is worse than steel (reason I have a ford OAD trans with 95K on it with factory filter, stupid exposed above the hole bolts, 10 mm and rusted corroded into alum case....)

I was going to take it down and repair it but no shop floor good enough to get under it...

heating the STUD cherry does 2 things

breaks bond (somewhat) between 2 parts.

2. expands the metal stud forcing the surrounding hole appart a bit, then cool stud (gets strenght back into stud and shrinks it to let gap in parts appear.)

3. best thing for installing header bolts is "Philliups Milk of Magnisia" yep stomach stuff. it is ONLY anti sieze AF uses on the Jet Engine after burners control feathers, (those are the parts that actually are squeezing the flame tigher into smaller diamiter!) yes they are bolted on and actually can have 20+ feet of blue flame squirting past them on one side and sub zero air temp on the other side (at altitude can be very sub zero temp /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif ) I have it on my cougars exaust manifolds, had them in and out about 4 or 5 times, never had a stuck bolt since using it! years between removals too...

anyhow somethign to help when re-assembeling them.

Mark M /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[om21braz]

Good Luck getting the studs out ! Look on the bright side - getting broken studs out requires far less cussing than getting out broken taps.

 

[micromike]

Just another tip...When I've had studs that were rusted/corrodedte etc. and too short to get a vice grip on I've welded a nut to the stud and the a wrench on the nut backs it right out. You may want to try this if you aren't getting a good grip on the nut.

Hey, let us know what worked for you!

Mike

 

[beenthere]

om21
You sure have that right, and I don't want to go there again /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Junkman]

Richard and others.....

All of the replies are correct and I only gave one of the ways to remove a stud. What you have to realize is that there are many different ways to do the job, depending on the material you are working on and the tools that you have. As I said in the original post, stud removers are not much use most of the time. I have used Von's method and I have also tried the wax trick once or twice. The materials that you are working with are the thing that makes the difference and you must learn what works best for each application. The welding of the nut on the stud is an old one, and the reason that it works so well most of the time is that it heats the stud, expanding it. Then when the stud cools, it actually will shrink a little bit. GM used to have studs listed in the parts book in .003" increments up to .006. That was all that it took to get a tighter fit when a stud hole was partially stripped out. After that, it was time for a Heli Coil. The important thing is that you got it off. When reassembling it, get the copper colored anti seize. This is the high temperature stuff. Also, consider using brass nuts and double nut them if possible. Stainless steel studs also if you can find them. Just don't use stainless steel to stainless steel. It will gall under pressure and you will never get it off. This will probably start a whole new debate. I speak from experience and my experiences might be different from others.