remember.. don't pull from the toplink

[IslandTractor]

problem is.. without yer head operating correctly.. that low tech device like the rops can actually -become- dangerous. for instance.. rops and no seatbelts can be a deth sentence just like no rops.

Like I've said in another post.. if you are -trying- to get hurt.. a safety device is not going to help much in most cases.



soundguy

How about tractor airbags? When the tractor position exceeds established limits huge airbags are deployed to stop rollovers? That would save a few potential Darwin awardees.

 

[SPYDERLK]

[[the fenders were of no use, the top of the tires were on the ground
the combination of large tires and low seat height saved the guy and also a lot of luck being flung away from the steering wheel and not crushed by the gas tank]]....lets just vow to never go there........I love my roll bar!!!! chit we have learned something in the last 50 years!!!!!

Yes!
larry

 

[SPYDERLK]

And to think that a mercurey switch in the wire to the coil could have prevented a death at a cost of about $20 just tears me up.........

I think maybe I need to get into the safety business.....

Great idea!

Naa.. wouldn't have done anything... it would have constantly been opening making hte tractor buck and after 2 hrs of running the machine after you bought it, the switch would have been out of circuit on 99.99999999999999999999% of machines sold.

tractors are rough use machines.. that merc switch would have played havoc on anything but smooth pavement..

not alot of tractoring going on on smooth pavement.

an ounce of sense, on the other hand.. would have prevented the accident if it was a pull from the toplink, as in the vid link I posted..

soundguy

I disagree with that %. Ever heard of debounce ?

Good intention but don't think a standard merc switch would work, maybe a modified one that wouldn't give false trips. Yes!

You might be on to something though, we've got safety switches for everything else. if you could come up with a cut out mechanism to prevent roll over you'd be a hero, save lives and make a bunch of money. Especially if it was simple enough to retrofit older equipment.

Ironically one of those flippin little safety devices almost cost me my life, took my little outboard motor boat for a cruise on the CT river, as soon as I got out in the current the motor cut out and I couldn't get it to restart. the swift current was pulling me at it's will right for a bridge abutment. luckily another boater spotted me in trouble and towed me to safety. Turned out to be bad merc switch, designed to prevent motor from running/starting when tipped up.

yep.. and if you use a capacitor to prevent false triggers, then you make it were it takes longer to trigger.. and with that.. it's useless.. as you can be tipped in a second or so.

I've also seen safety switches strand people in funny places.

we all are equipped with a very high tech safety device.. it sets on our shoulders and holds our hats up... sadly.. some people don't always use them... hard to replace that with a safety cutout switch...

soundguy

Ah-h. You just invented it!.... Now tune the trigger in the millisec range. Its called electronics... and logic.
larry

 

[JB4310]

Great idea!


Ever heard of debounce?




Ah-h. You just invented it!.... Now tune the trigger in the millisec range. Its called electronics... and logic.
larry

Only problem most of OUR tractors don't have coils, though the new diesels are all electronic, so you could still do it electronically.

Have to have some type of mechanical fuel cut off for the straight mechanical diesels, That would be more involved and maybe to slow to prevent a back flip.

Even on the gas powered with a ignition cut out, there still might be enough rotating mass in the engine, it wouldn't be a dead stop of movement, just turning off the spark.

As simple as the concept I doubt something truly effective/foolproof can be invented in the basement.
The engineers working with all the options in the E-hydro machines could probably come up with something that could shut down/reverse the drive-train in a nano second, if they wanted to.

.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Only problem most of OUR tractors don't have coils, though the new diesels are all electronic, so you could still do it electronically.

Have to have some type of mechanical fuel cut off for the straight mechanical diesels, That would be more involved and maybe to slow to prevent a back flip.

Even on the gas powered with a ignition cut out, there still might be enough rotating mass in the engine, it wouldn't be a dead stop of movement, just turning off the spark.

As simple as the concept I doubt something truly effective/foolproof can be invented in the basement.
The engineers working with all the options in the E-hydro machines could probably come up with something that could shut down/reverse the drive-train in a nano second, if they wanted to.

.

All solveable. While real, all these things dont even come close to being daunting. Not a $20 fix tho... even in mass production. It surely could be done in a basement. I know someone capable of doing it. Unfortunately his interests are elsewhere.
larry

 

[Soundguy]

You use some electronics terms but have little practicle knowledge for application it seems.

sure.. you can compenste the swit.. and by doing so you increase the time it takes for the merc shict to appear open. given the very quick time it takes a tractor to go over.. you have just encountered a problem in your logic.. er.. lack of logic. ie.. to properly compensat the switch so bumpy ground doesn't cause periodic cutouts, .. you will need to compensate it for a period longer than it could take for a backflip to occur. not very helpfull.. imagine a car airbag that deployed seconds after a car accident .. or seatbelt locks that only locke dup seconds after the car stopped in the crash.. your debounce idea is novel.. but to make it workable, also nixes the idea for practicality sake... ie.. tuning the trigger in the MS range will not prevent cutouts over rough teraine.. tuning it longer will.. but then the longer delay will allow the rollover.

besides.. only would work on an ignition that needs power.. like spark or fuel solenoid cutoff.. the lage on either of those would make it useless...

soundguy

Great idea!


I disagree with that %. Ever heard of debounce ?




Ah-h. You just invented it!.... Now tune the trigger in the millisec range. Its called electronics... and logic.
larry

 

[Soundguy]

correct.. there isn't a 5$ fix to this issue.. or it would have already been implemented. the speed at which a backflip[ can happen is going to make an ignition interlock dubious at best.. perhaps some sort of latching pinion clutch that operated at lightspeed after a certain angle was reached, but with anti falsing sensors so it didn't kil the drivetrain when you simply drove up a hill. I'm sure we could laod down a farm tractor with enough electronics to make it a jet fighter and then it would probably work as designed... the 35million price tag might make it a lil hard for farmers though.. sorry spyder.. no 5$ fix here..

soundguy

Only problem most of OUR tractors don't have coils, though the new diesels are all electronic, so you could still do it electronically.

Have to have some type of mechanical fuel cut off for the straight mechanical diesels, That would be more involved and maybe to slow to prevent a back flip.

Even on the gas powered with a ignition cut out, there still might be enough rotating mass in the engine, it wouldn't be a dead stop of movement, just turning off the spark.

As simple as the concept I doubt something truly effective/foolproof can be invented in the basement.
The engineers working with all the options in the E-hydro machines could probably come up with something that could shut down/reverse the drive-train in a nano second, if they wanted to.

.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve C
And to think that a mercurey switch in the wire to the coil could have prevented a death at a cost of about $20 just tears me up.........

I think maybe I need to get into the safety business.....

Great idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundguy
Naa.. wouldn't have done anything... it would have constantly been opening making hte tractor buck and after 2 hrs of running the machine after you bought it, the switch would have been out of circuit on 99.99999999999999999999% of machines sold.

tractors are rough use machines.. that merc switch would have played havoc on anything but smooth pavement..

I disagree with that %. Ever heard of debounce ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB4310
Good intention but don't think a standard merc switch would work, maybe a modified one that wouldn't give false trips. Yes!

You might be on to something though, we've got safety switches for everything else. if you could come up with a cut out mechanism to prevent roll over you'd be a hero, save lives and make a bunch of money. Especially if it was simple enough to retrofit older equipment.

Ironically one of those flippin little safety devices almost cost me my life, took my little outboard motor boat for a cruise on the CT river, as soon as I got out in the current the motor cut out and I couldn't get it to restart. the swift current was pulling me at it's will right for a bridge abutment. luckily another boater spotted me in trouble and towed me to safety. Turned out to be bad merc switch, designed to prevent motor from running/starting when tipped up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundguy
yep.. and if you use a capacitor to prevent false triggers, then you make it were it takes longer to trigger.. and with that.. it's useless.. as you can be tipped in a second or so.

I've also seen safety switches strand people in funny places.

we all are equipped with a very high tech safety device.. it sets on our shoulders and holds our hats up... sadly.. some people don't always use them... hard to replace that with a safety cutout switch...

soundguy

Ah-h. You just invented it!.... Now tune the trigger in the millisec range. Its called electronics... and logic.
larry

Quote originally posted by Soundguy:
You use some electronics terms but have little practicle knowledge for application it seems.

sure.. you can compenste the swit.. and by doing so you increase the time it takes for the merc shict to appear open. given the very quick time it takes a tractor to go over.. you have just encountered a problem in your logic.. er.. lack of logic. ie.. to properly compensat the switch so bumpy ground doesn't cause periodic cutouts, .. you will need to compensate it for a period longer than it could take for a backflip to occur. not very helpfull.. imagine a car airbag that deployed seconds after a car accident .. or seatbelt locks that only locke dup seconds after the car stopped in the crash.. your debounce idea is novel.. but to make it workable, also nixes the idea for practicality sake... ie.. tuning the trigger in the MS range will not prevent cutouts over rough teraine.. tuning it longer will.. but then the longer delay will allow the rollover.

besides.. only would work on an ignition that needs power.. like spark or fuel solenoid cutoff.. the lage on either of those would make it useless...

soundguy

Quote originally posted by JB 4310:
Only problem most of OUR tractors don't have coils, though the new diesels are all electronic, so you could still do it electronically.

Have to have some type of mechanical fuel cut off for the straight mechanical diesels, That would be more involved and maybe to slow to prevent a back flip.

Even on the gas powered with a ignition cut out, there still might be enough rotating mass in the engine, it wouldn't be a dead stop of movement, just turning off the spark.

As simple as the concept I doubt something truly effective/foolproof can be invented in the basement.
The engineers working with all the options in the E-hydro machines could probably come up with something that could shut down/reverse the drive-train in a nano second, if they wanted to.

All solveable. While real, all these things dont even come close to being daunting. Not a $20 fix tho... even in mass production. It surely could be done in a basement. I know someone capable of doing it. Unfortunately his interests are elsewhere.
larry

correct.. there isn't a 5$ fix to this issue.. or it would have already been implemented. the speed at which a backflip[ can happen is going to make an ignition interlock dubious at best.. perhaps some sort of latching pinion clutch that operated at lightspeed after a certain angle was reached, but with anti falsing sensors so it didn't kil the drivetrain when you simply drove up a hill. I'm sure we could laod down a farm tractor with enough electronics to make it a jet fighter and then it would probably work as designed... the 35million price tag might make it a lil hard for farmers though.. sorry spyder.. no 5$ fix here..

soundguy

Quote:
Current Spyderlk
Youre getting a + on your negativeness, but you simply must develop your negativeness better. Exaggeration and inaccurate quoting is not enuf. You must be more negatively creative. Assume the designer flails thru a morass in a direction of intent, but devoid of thot and oblivious of clues to ease passage and improve results. In a clear frame of mind you would want neither that designer nor yourself working for you.
Conceiving good function with a mercury switch is not that difficult. You just dont restrict yourself to that device alone. You will need sensors and a microprocessor. You sense, at minimum. the front wheels leaving the ground and change of state of the Hg switch. The microP times and correlates the sensed events and acts according to programming - cutting fuel, applying brakes when the sensing composite indicates imminent backtip. Even this simple the system would not be much of a nuisance, so the "push and hold to override" button would be seldom used. Much smarter components exist in microchip form to supplant the elegant but crude Hg switch. Tractor attitude and roll could be monitored very close to real time. The microP would just have to be real busy to assess inertial transients accurately [a debounce type of function] to prevent false alarms. But then, tractor events developing over hundreds of milliseconds are eons to electronics running at a rate in the megaHz. - You might even get to forget where the override button is.
larry

 

[Soundguy]

anyone else have problems reading that? I gave up about 2 paragraphs in...

soundguy

 

[JB4310]

To many quotes,
But I think the sensor, whether it be mercury switch or swinging pendulum etc would be the easy part could probably be the size of a match box so might not have to be expensive.
The hard part is how to adapt to all the different machines with different power plants and wide range of drive trains. most likely would have to be done in house during engineering stage.

Just turning the engine off when the tractor is nearly standing on end might not be enough to be 100% effective, I guess that's why they put their money into ROPS they figure we're gonna roll them over anyway, no matter what they do or what kind of sticker that's supposed to scare us they put on there.

 

[Steve C]

To many quotes,
But I think the sensor, whether it be mercury switch or swinging pendulum etc would be the easy part could probably be the size of a match box so might not have to be expensive.
The hard part is how to adapt to all the different machines with different power plants and wide range of drive trains. most likely would have to be done in house during engineering stage.

Just turning the engine off when the tractor is nearly standing on end might not be enough to be 100% effective, I guess that's why they put their money into ROPS they figure we're gonna roll them over anyway, no matter what they do or what kind of sticker that's supposed to scare us they put on there.

Wow. I didn't know what I was starting here. I am pretty sure that it would be possible to make an ignition cut out for old gas tractors that would be cheap and effective.

It could be interlocked with with a solonoid switch and a small high pressure air bottle and air cylinder to declutch the tractor in milliseconds making a back flip impossible. The retail cost for the system would probably have to be around $100 to cover the cost of the hardware items........on second thought to cover the cost of being sued if it ever failed the price would have to go to around $1000.

The real problem is that nobody would buy one at any price. The old guy who has been using the Farmall or 8n tractor for 40 or 50 years would figure that if he didn't need it by now he probably don't need it!

His grand kids would have to sneak the installation on the tractor.

 

[Soundguy]

And how would your anti falsing work? what happens when you are mowing at a good clip and rpm and hit a good bump or hole that was enough to make the mercury move away from the contacts, and the 'auto-clutch' clutched, stopping the tractor and then 1/4 of a second later when the merc was back touching again, the clutch jerks back in at full power and the poor old farmer flies off the back as the tracor keeps popping wheelies every 1.4 of a second as the auto clutch keeps popping the clutch.. I see a farmer being run over by this bucking bronco pretty quick

I guess you could make it latching.. but I personally would grow tired of resetting everything every time I hit a gopher hole or ant mound.....

what happens when driving up some ramps to load your trailer... would we have to worry about the clutch popper kit killing us while driving up at an angle?

again.. this isn't a 5$ bolt on fix... ( however add a couple zero's, and the rops ARE.

soundguy

Wow. I didn't know what I was starting here. I am pretty sure that it would be possible to make an ignition cut out for old gas tractors that would be cheap and effective.

It could be interlocked with with a solonoid switch and a small high pressure air bottle and air cylinder to declutch the tractor in milliseconds making a back flip impossible. The retail cost for the system would probably have to be around $100 to cover the cost of the hardware items........on second thought to cover the cost of being sued if it ever failed the price would have to go to around $1000.

The real problem is that nobody would buy one at any price. The old guy who has been using the Farmall or 8n tractor for 40 or 50 years would figure that if he didn't need it by now he probably don't need it!

His grand kids would have to sneak the installation on the tractor.

 

[kenstrac]

Why not put WHEELIE BARS and while were at it TRAINING WHEELS,that should take care of the mentally deficient!

 

[SPYDERLK]

And how would your anti falsing work? what happens when you are mowing at a good clip and rpm and hit a good bump or hole that was enough to make the mercury move away from the contacts, and the 'auto-clutch' clutched, stopping the tractor and then 1/4 of a second later when the merc was back touching again, the clutch jerks back in at full power and the poor old farmer flies off the back as the tracor keeps popping wheelies every 1.4 of a second as the auto clutch keeps popping the clutch.. I see a farmer being run over by this bucking bronco pretty quick

I guess you could make it latching.. but I personally would grow tired of resetting everything every time I hit a gopher hole or ant mound.....

what happens when driving up some ramps to load your trailer... would we have to worry about the clutch popper kit killing us while driving up at an angle?

again.. this isn't a 5$ bolt on fix... ( however add a couple zero's, and the rops ARE.

soundguy

I believe I said something about sensors and a microprocessor. That is how the designer prevents the Chicken Little scenario you invented. The microP is programed to discriminate between danger and normal transient behavior.
larry

 

[Steve C]

I believe I said something about sensors and a microprocessor. That is how the designer prevents the Chicken Little scenario you invented. The microP is programed to discriminate between danger and normal transient behavior.
larry

Exactly. If Nintendo can make a hand held controler for the Wii that senses 3 axis motion, a single axis or even a 2 axis device should be a cake walk.

My idea about declutching it with an air charge from a small bottle (similar to that used on a paint ball gun) would be a one time event. It is to remove any possibility of a flywheel effect from continuing to rotate the tractor about the rear axel. Once it is tripped and saved your life, the ignition is turned off and the clutch is dissengaged. No pogo action, you are not moving. To continue operation of the tractor you will need to reset the overturn sensor with the push of a button that also resets the 3 way soloniod valve to closed and opens the port on the clutch actuating cylinder to bleed off the air from the clutch disengaging cylinder.

(you could also do this with the hydraulics on the tractor if they are available)

You would need a pressure sensor on the air tank to insure that it contained enough air for another trip if needed. It could be set up to use small CO2 cylinders like they use in pellet guns to recharge it in the field if needed. A 5 pack could live in the bottom of a tool box. You could also tie it in with a load cell on the front axel. If the load cell senses that the front end is totally weightless the microprocessor could measure the amount of time it remains weightless and could trigger ignition cut out and declutch based on a predetermined amount of front end "hang time" and/or upward rotation angle. You could then drive the tractor up a 45 degree slope and as long as the front end is on the ground it will keep going even if it is bouncing up and down and actually lifting the wheels off the ground as long as they don't stay off the ground for to long......nothing to it...

 

[Steve C]

And how would your anti falsing work? what happens when you are mowing at a good clip and rpm and hit a good bump or hole that was enough to make the mercury move away from the contacts, and the 'auto-clutch' clutched, stopping the tractor and then 1/4 of a second later when the merc was back touching again, the clutch jerks back in at full power and the poor old farmer flies off the back as the tracor keeps popping wheelies every 1.4 of a second as the auto clutch keeps popping the clutch.. I see a farmer being run over by this bucking bronco pretty quick

I guess you could make it latching.. but I personally would grow tired of resetting everything every time I hit a gopher hole or ant mound.....

what happens when driving up some ramps to load your trailer... would we have to worry about the clutch popper kit killing us while driving up at an angle?

again.. this isn't a 5$ bolt on fix... ( however add a couple zero's, and the rops ARE.

soundguy

I dunno...I would never design anything that would do the things that you describe

I do realize that every time you try to make something idiot proof, the world has a way of supplying a more capable idiot to defeat the system.

 

[Soundguy]

OR.. you could put a rops on the tractor...hmm.. naa.. that's too easy.. no backyard microcomputer engineering degree needed..

this is a seriously moot discussion.. if this sort of device were comercially feasable. ( not technically feasable). it would already be standard or optional equipment...

soundguy

Exactly. If Nintendo can make a hand held controler for
the Wii that senses 3 axis motion, a single axis or even a 2 axis device should be a cake walk.

My idea about declutching it with an air charge from a small bottle (similar to that used on a paint ball gun) would be a one time event. It is to remove any possibility of a flywheel effect from continuing to rotate the tractor about the rear axel. Once it is tripped and saved your life, the ignition is turned off and the clutch is dissengaged. No pogo action, you are not moving. To continue operation of the tractor you will need to reset the overturn sensor with the push of a button that also resets the 3 way soloniod valve to closed and opens the port on the clutch actuating cylinder to bleed off the air from the clutch disengaging cylinder.

(you could also do this with the hydraulics on the tractor if they are available)

You would need a pressure sensor on the air tank to insure that it contained enough air for another trip if needed. It could be set up to use small CO2 cylinders like they use in pellet guns to recharge it in the field if needed. A 5 pack could live in the bottom of a tool box. You could also tie it in with a load cell on the front axel. If the load cell senses that the front end is totally weightless the microprocessor could measure the amount of time it remains weightless and could trigger ignition cut out and declutch based on a predetermined amount of front end "hang time" and/or upward rotation angle. You could then drive the tractor up a 45 degree slope and as long as the front end is on the ground it will keep going even if it is bouncing up and down and actually lifting the wheels off the ground as long as they don't stay off the ground for to long......nothing to it...

 

[Steve C]

OR.. you could put a rops on the tractor...hmm.. naa.. that's too easy.. no backyard microcomputer engineering degree needed..

this is a seriously moot discussion.. if this sort of device were comercially feasable. ( not technically feasable). it would already be standard or optional equipment...

soundguy

It is only seriously moot because you chose to see it that way.

And I suppose that you walk accross the room and turn the dial on your T.V to change the 3 channels also. screw the remote you don't need that

I already stated why it wouldn't sell.

But by the same token, some folks wouldn't consider 4 "U" bolts and a little 3 inch tube steel a worthy investment in their safety. It would probably cost about the same and would be more difficult to get into the garage.

It reminds me of a discussion that I had with a client 20 years ago about installing a fire supression systems in plastic thermoforming equipment. It seems that they had some machines that were prone to catch on fire every once in a while and they wanted to put them out fast.

It didn't accure to them that perhaps they should prevent the fires from happening rather than dealing with them afterwards.

Why in the world would you want to have a roll bar save you from being crushed instead of a device that would prevent the accident from happening in the first place. It is an idiotic mind set. Don't let the tractor turn over in the first place! What is so difficult about that concept:confused


An aftermarket system could work and could be very inexpensive to install. But hey if it only saves ten or twenty lives a year, why bother!

There is always another new tractor geek on the horizon to replace the ones lost to stupidity.

There is no money in that. Let them be crushed

That is why I am an unemployed mechanical designer. We don't need it

And some people wouldn't buy seat belts in their cars if they had the choice. Good for them! As designers we try our best. If people want to put themselves at risk we cant stop it. We can give them the schematics so they can defeat every safety switch. We draw nice pictures.

 

[Steve C]

OR.. you could put a rops on the tractor...hmm.. naa.. that's too easy.. no backyard microcomputer engineering degree needed..

this is a seriously moot discussion.. if this sort of device were comercially feasable. ( not technically feasable). it would already be standard or optional equipment...

soundguy

If you put the rops on the tractor you need to make the operator wear a seat belt to get the benifits. This is an active system in which the operator must chose to participate. He could be crushed under the roll bar otherwise. The much better option is to stop it from turning over in the first palce, a passive system that replaces large amounts of steel with much smaller amounts of silicone chips.

 

[Steve C]

If you put the rops on the tractor you need to make the operator wear a seat belt to get the benifits. This is an active system in which the operator must chose to participate. He could be crushed under the roll bar otherwise. The much better option is to stop it from turning over in the first palce, a passive system that replaces large amounts of steel with much smaller amounts of silicone chips.

please, someone send this thread to John Deere, I need a job and they need an edge on the competition!

It is a matter of some if-then statement programed in basic, nothing to it

How much are un-dead farmers worth?