Rear hydraulic lines

[cat fever]

My question is this; The Stock hydraulic set up on my tractor lifts and lowers my haybine just fine slow or fast just move the lever and it works.
The 2nd hydraulic I had added at the dealer lifts just fine but there is no control of the lowering of the haybine. It just drops like a ton of bricks.
Should both sets work the same? My thoughts are yes.
To be clear this is what I've done. On the stock set up I always use the left side of the pair. My haybine is a single line hydraulic cylinder.
On the added one I used the right side of the pair. So does it matter?
The other day I was working on the haybine and needed to watch something while it was slowly being lowered. At first I was going to be under it while my wife lowered it. I tested it first to see how fast or slow it was going to drop. Good thing I did, otherwise it would have crushed me. Some good lessons learned without dying.
So is there a problem with the second hydraulic set up? Or does it matter which side of the pair I use?

 

[Texasmark]

One way to test which line is which is without anything connected, put your hyd lever in the up position holding it there and see if you can stab a remote hose in what you think is the up connector for that lever with the engine running. If it won't stab that's your up feed line for that lever. Do the same with the other. On my tractor, the upper set is up on the left and down on the right. Same for the second set right under it. My tractor is a Branson.

If you have a single feed system once you open what used to be the pressure port and now it's the dump port, there's nothing to stop the flow other than line resistance. With the two port system they fight each other in the cylinder...one is on one side of the piston and the other on the other so one direction can move only when and as far as the other direction lets it.

 

[boggen]

i am wondering if your quick connects are not correct for one that is slow raising / lower. and in that not correctly opening up. when you put the hoses from the haybine to the ports on back of tractor. more of a common problem with quick connects. and in that they do not properly seat. and you need to undo the rear remote hyd quick connects and then re-connect them up. when quick connects do not seat properly no flow of hyd fluid could happen in either direction or both directions and or only partial hyd fluid flows through them.

as far as the other valve suddenly dropping. you should be able to control how fast things raise / lower pending on how much you move the lever for the valve. though i am kinda wondering if a pressure relief is kicking in. and/or pressure relief is not set correctly perhaps.

NEVER TRUST HYDRAULICS!!! when holding something up!! something can and will go wrong and someone will either be injured or dead. always use something to support hydraulics when lifted up. make it a floor jack or like.

===================
you can use either valve to control raising / lowering of haybine. BUT the hoses coming from haybine need to goto same valve for given hydraulic cylinder.


below image is just trying to show you can swap hoses around.

 

[boggen]

One way to test which line is which is without anything connected, put your hyd lever in the up position holding it there and see if you can stab a remote hose in what you think is the up connector for that lever with the engine running. If it won't stab that's your up feed line for that lever. Do the same with the other. On my tractor, the upper set is up on the left and down on the right. Same for the second set right under it. My tractor is a Branson.

If you have a single feed system once you open what used to be the pressure port and now it's the dump port, there's nothing to stop the flow other than line resistance. With the two port system they fight each other in the cylinder...one is on one side of the piston and the other on the other so one direction can move only when and as far as the other direction lets it.

i am wondering if you are confusing a "single acting cylinder" vs a double acting cylinder.

single acting cylinder only has one hose connected to it. while a double acting cylinder has 2 hoses that connect to it. valves setup for double acting cylinder, might work with a single acting hydraulic cylinder.

in a double acting cylinder / valve setup. it does not matter how hoses are connected to the valve. the valve will work either way.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

I do not know what a habine is; but, on my BX 3PT there is a valve that effects the speed of movement and can be closed to keep it in a set position. You may need to add a needle valve to the P line going to the valves controlling your habine. Just an idea w/o really knowing what you have. Pictures might help.

Ron

 

[boggen]

last moment thought. wondering if dealer messed up and hooked up the hoses wrong to the valve/s themselves. just one little woops of connecting hoses might cause issue.

 

[cat fever]

i am wondering if you are confusing a "single acting cylinder" vs a double acting cylinder.

single acting cylinder only has one hose connected to it. while a double acting cylinder has 2 hoses that connect to it. valves setup for double acting cylinder, might work with a single acting hydraulic cylinder.

in a double acting cylinder / valve setup. it does not matter how hoses are connected to the valve. the valve will work either way.

Thank you all for responding. Sorry I do not have a picture of the back of my tractor.
I do have a single acting cylinder. (one hose) I think what I need to try is hooking the line from the haybine to the dealer added hydraulic. (left side)
That is the only thing I did different. I have always been using the factory set up. (left side) and when I was working on it I had the line hooked to the add on right side.
My main question is, if there is a difference in the right verses left side on a single acting cylinder when hooking up the hose? If that makes sense.
Found a picture.

 

[J_J]

A single action cyl nay have ports at both ends.

The hose connects to the base end .

The port at the rod end is a breather port.

If it is a double action cyl, you could use either port, depending on whether you wanted to push or pull.

 

[countrybumpkin]

The valves just stack on top of each other, so really no way of hooking anything up wrong when dealer installed the second valve. Both valves should work the same, only difference is if you switch to the Right port over the left side port the control lever would work opposite than it did with the other valve ; where as if when hooked to right port , pushing control stick may raise and pulling it back would lower, then if you switched ports pushing would now lower and pulling would raise. If you are using a single acting cylinder ( one hose) there is only hydraulic pressure used to move the cylinder in one direction, the other direction is usually done by the weight of the equipment and gravity. On your rear remotes when you push the control lever say forward, it supplies fluid pressure to one side of that valve while it opens the other side of the valve to tank return which is open flow and the more you push the control lever the farther the valve moves opening the tank flow more an doll awing more fluid to return to the tank and also allowing more pressurized fluid IN to the cylinder on the other side. So to slowly lower the cylinder you would have to only slightly push or pull the control for that valve , depending on which side of the valve you are connected to. That being said don't forget that when using a single acting cylinder on a double acting valve, that as your pressurizing and dead heading the port with no hose hooked to it and causing the relief valve to open and fluid to bypass, anytime this happens the fluid will build heat at a high rate. Hope this helps a bit and is understandable.

 

[cat fever]

The valves just stack on top of each other, so really no way of hooking anything up wrong when dealer installed the second valve. Both valves should work the same, only difference is if you switch to the Right port over the left side port the control lever would work opposite than it did with the other valve ; where as if when hooked to right port , pushing control stick may raise and pulling it back would lower, then if you switched ports pushing would now lower and pulling would raise. If you are using a single acting cylinder ( one hose) there is only hydraulic pressure used to move the cylinder in one direction, the other direction is usually done by the weight of the equipment and gravity. On your rear remotes when you push the control lever say forward, it supplies fluid pressure to one side of that valve while it opens the other side of the valve to tank return which is open flow and the more you push the control lever the farther the valve moves opening the tank flow more an doll awing more fluid to return to the tank and also allowing more pressurized fluid IN to the cylinder on the other side. So to slowly lower the cylinder you would have to only slightly push or pull the control for that valve , depending on which side of the valve you are connected to. That being said don't forget that when using a single acting cylinder on a double acting valve, that as your pressurizing and dead heading the port with no hose hooked to it and causing the relief valve to open and fluid to bypass, anytime this happens the fluid will build heat at a high rate. Hope this helps a bit and is understandable.

CB,
Everything you said is how I thought it worked. My guess is your NX works the same as mine. It's just that on the dealer added valves when I tried to slowly lower the haybine it just dropped. No control what so ever. The factory valves I can raise and lower more or less depending on how much I move the control lever. So do you think there could be a problem with the dealer added valve?

 

[countrybumpkin]

Is the dealer added valve not a factory second valve? If so then yes there could be a issue with it , the valve should be the same valve as the first unless it's a detent valve but should still work the same as the first

 

[cat fever]

Is the dealer added valve not a factory second valve? If so then yes there could be a issue with it , the valve should be the same valve as the first unless it's a detent valve but should still work the same as the first

I assume it's a factory valve it looks just like the factory one. Except it's not painted.

 

[countrybumpkin]

Ah ok yes if it's bolted to the other one it is. I tried looking up part numbers this morning but I couldn't get the site to come up but I think the valve is the same as the ones on the NX. Have you tried both ports on the original valve and both will control the rate of drop? What about the other port on the new valve what's it do?

 

[cat fever]

Ah ok yes if it's bolted to the other one it is. I tried looking up part numbers this morning but I couldn't get the site to come up but I think the valve is the same as the ones on the NX. Have you tried both ports on the original valve and both will control the rate of drop? What about the other port on the new valve what's it do?

I have not done that yet. Tomorrow I will try the other ports to see how each works.
Should have tried all this the day I was working on the haybine---I was so glad to get done with a job that should have taken 10 minutes that turned into 6 hours that I just put it all away and went back in the house and ate popsicles.
I will post what I find.

 

[countrybumpkin]

I totally understand

 

[N2DFire]

I don't know that much about hydraulics but is it possible the second valve has a float position and you're pushing thru the detent (or the detent ball / spring are missing) and going into float and that's why the haybine is dropping uncontrolled?

 

[countrybumpkin]

Kioti doesn't offer a float valve , just a detent or spring return. But yes if he has a detent valve and is pushing through to allow the detent to engage then it would drop fast.

 

[N2DFire]

Kioti doesn't offer a float valve , just a detent or spring return. But yes if he has a detent valve and is pushing through to allow the detent to engage then it would drop fast.

That makes sense too, I hadn't thought about that. Basically that would open the path from the single cylinder line to the return side of the system with no restrictions and hold it open. Even easier if the detent were broken.

I have a lot of "book knowledge" from my college days & research here; but my practical application is limited to the current CK35 and a few times of playing with earth moving equipment as a kid.

I have been doing research about adding remotes to our CK for use with a top & tilt set-up and I was sure there was a float option so today I dug a little deeper and apparently it's only available on the CK series valve set (who knew - I figured they were all that way).

I found this most recent thread on the subject in the Bobcat section
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/bobcat-tractors/327499-float-action-rear-remotes.html


Either way - I'm curious to see how this works out.

 

[J_J]

Have you considered stacked hyd valves.

3 SPOOL 20 SERIES PRINCE STACK VALVE POWER BEYOND

Just order the sections that you need and set it up the way you want.

You can order any section to suit your needs.

 

[cat fever]

Ok, I tested the ports and here is how they all work.
Both of the left sides you can go up/down fast or slow using the lever.
Both right sides you can control going up with the lever, but no control of going down. It just drops.
Here are a few pictures; as you can see the haybine has a single action cylinder just as J_J described earlier in the thread.
I do appreciate the feedback on my question and confusion.