Pull starting a Ford 4500 with a torque converter trans.

City Farmer · May 8, 2016

Is it possible to pull start a tractor (Ford 4500) with a torque converter/power reversing transmission? The ring gear is almost smoked, I can't believe it's still turning over as it is. I know this is going to be an issue in the near future. I won't have the time to split it and take care of it the right way until the winter but I'll need this tractor through out the summer. I really like the tractor, it runs great but it needs a little help. I'm slowly chipping away at 45yrs of neglect the best I can.

joecdeere · May 8, 2016

Sorry, that won't work, engine has to be turning enough to drive pump and torque converter to hookup clutches. same theory as your automatic car, you can't pull start it either.

Steave · May 8, 2016

My International has a torque converter and my manual says it won't work. I remember cranking old cars this way but you had to get up a lot of speed. Never tried it just read it in the manual. Maybe somebody famailiar with your ford can chime in.

City Farmer · May 8, 2016

Thanks guys, I knew it was some wishful thinking. It looks like I'm forced to find the time but I'm not looking forward to splitting this one at all.

Steave · May 8, 2016

I'm going to rebuild my engine sometime in the near future. I'll have plenty of advise from my bro and bro in law and I'm sure I'll need all the help I can get. I can turn wrenches and I can read but not a mechanic. I have a shop with overhead trolley and tools so that will help.

Seems a shame to break it down just to put in a new flywheel. I had to break my ford 3000 just to put in a failed throw out bearing.

RickB · May 8, 2016

You don't need a flywheel. You need a ring gear. Big difference.

buickanddeere · May 8, 2016

A fresh pinion gear on the starter may obtain some mesh for a while ?
What ripped the flywheel ring gear to bits in the first place ?
Is there any way to shim the starter deeper into the ring gear ?

City Farmer · May 11, 2016

Thanks for the ideas guys. I guess 45yrs of starting finally wore the ring gear out. I was looking at splitting it yesterday and it's a bigger job than I initially thought. In order to split it, I have to get the drag link off. I can't get the drag link off because the loader arm is to close. I'm going to do a full hydraulic steering conversion this winter. I'll just torch everything so I don't have to pull the loader off. I hope it continues to start through the summer because I'm going to need this tractor. I'll keep the idea of shimming the pinion gear as an option.

jimmysisson · May 11, 2016

I agre w buickanddeere, try a new starter drive. Did that once on a BMW and three years later it had yet to skip a start. Ymmv of course.
Jim

Dave M7040 · May 11, 2016

I came across on youtube a unique way to pull start a tractor using the pto shaft.
Starting a tractor by spinning the PTO - YouTube
If you are desperate this might work for you.
The guy had a mower attached to the back of his tractor.
He took a wide strap and wound it around the u-joint area at the mower end of the pto.
Connected the strap to the trailer hitch on his car and drove off.
The pto spun the tractor engine to life.
Use great caution if trying this!!!
Dave M7040

oldnslo · May 11, 2016

Does the 4500 have a hydraulic clutch? If yes the using the PTO won't work either.

Have you pulled the starter to see what the ring gear and stsrter drive look like. Pretty rare that a ring gear goes bad but possible.

City Farmer · May 11, 2016

Theres no PTO on the old Ford industrials with the power reversing trans. I pulled/replaced the starter because the solenoid was cracked by the PO. I had to smack it with a hammer everytime I wanted to start it. That's when I noticed about (5/16") 40% of the ring gear was rounded off. I should've taken a picture of it. I don't think it's all that rare because I've replaced 3 so far on the 3 & 4000 series Fords.

zzvyb6 · May 11, 2016

Can you motor it from the front using an air drive or a flat belt pully pressed against the accessory drive belts ? If the wrong toothed starter gear was installed, that would round the teeth. Were there several starter drive gear sets used in production, lets say to speed up the crankshaft during starting? One extra tooth could round off the ring gear.

California · May 12, 2016

Towing, or twisting the PTO, can't crank the engine. This is because you need hydraulic pressure in the transmission to engage its internal clutches. This pressure comes from a hydraulic pump at the input end of the transmission - which is turned by the engine crankshaft. Crankshaft not turning, no hydraulic pressure to engage the internal clutches.

Waaay back, GM's Hydramatic 4-speed automatic transmission could be tow started, up until about 1952. BTDT. I don't know of anything since then that can be.

Looks like the possible solutions are limited to repairs, or turning the front end of the crankshaft.

buickanddeere · May 12, 2016

Sometimes just going ahead and properly repairing equipmemt is the fastest, lowest cost, safest and most reliable solution.
As previously stated, the wrong pinion gear does sound likely.

Gary Fowler · May 12, 2016

California said:
Towing, or twisting the PTO, can't crank the engine. This is because you need hydraulic pressure in the transmission to engage its internal clutches. This pressure comes from a hydraulic pump at the input end of the transmission - which is turned by the engine crankshaft. Crankshaft not turning, no hydraulic pressure to engage the internal clutches.

Waaay back, GM's Hydramatic 4-speed automatic transmission could be tow started, up until about 1952. BTDT. I don't know of anything since then that can be.

Looks like the possible solutions are limited to repairs, or turning the front end of the crankshaft.

I had a 1965 Ford Galaxy 500 that you could push start. My mothers 1965 Fairlane would not push start. I don't know the difference they had but it was sure handy a few times to be able to push start my car. You had to get it up above 30 MPH for it to start.

fidowanttobe · May 12, 2016

A pal of mine had a bad ring gear on a car that he would kill it instead of shutting it off until he got it replaced. His reasoning was that a v8 gas shuts off in the same 3 spots every time, so by killing it he had a better chance of not trying to engage it on the bad spot. Dunno. But I do remember a time or two, (but not often) that he had to pop the hood and turn the engine by hand a hair so that it would catch. If you get it fired up, maybe that will help.

City Farmer · May 12, 2016

buickanddeere said:
Sometimes just going ahead and properly repairing equipmemt is the fastest, lowest cost, safest and most reliable solution.
As previously stated, the wrong pinion gear does sound likely.

Nope, it's the right starter. It's 5" diesel Lucas starter with a 10 tooth drive gear. It appears to be the original. I'll run it like it is until it quits, I'll try shimming the drive gear when it does. If that doesn't work, I'll tow it off to the side and tarp it. I can't get to it until after the barn is built. I'm renting a building and I'm outta room.

buickanddeere · May 13, 2016

City Farmer said:
Nope, it's the right starter. It's 5" diesel Lucas starter with a 10 tooth drive gear. It appears to be the original. I'll run it like it is until it quits, I'll try shimming the drive gear when it does. If that doesn't work, I'll tow it off to the side and tarp it. I can't get to it until after the barn is built. I'm renting a building and I'm outta room.

Better to install a new pinion and shim it tight now. Instead of continuing to slip and chew up the ring gear. Maybe able to squeeze a few more years of service out of it?