PT1445 20 hrs, Lost steering!

[PT1445Farmer]

After reading everything on this forum about PT I finally picked up a PT1445 with mower, multi-bucket, boom, planter and spare filters plus hydro bleed pump, maybe a year ago. Possibly more.
20 hours of mowing - where it overheated every 10-15 mins, moving items as heavy as 1600 lbs with my homemade lift fork system ($100 instead of over $1000 for PT!), and towing things and I was relatively satisfied. Until yesterday.
Getting ready to plant a garden, I needed to use the multi-bucket to move loads of dirt. I uncoupled the fork carriage. The clamped in the multi-bucket. Shut off the PT and unhooked the hydro hoses and hooked them into the multi-bucket open/close hydro fittings. Started her up and ran. As I began shoving the bucket into the heavy wet dirt, the PT chugged and the engine stopped several times. I had the throttle at midway. Finally I got a bucket load, lifted it and started to back out. Suddenly it felt like the turning the wheel to the left had no resistance and almost no effect. I had lost my ability to get the left actuators to work with any force. They might work a litttle, then lose the force.
I had to let the dirt down to avoid tipping over, work the PT into the field and leave it parked.
What the **** happened and what can I do about it? Looking for help from my fellow PT1430 -1445 - 1460 er's.
Pre Thanks! Might even send a reward tomato or two if I can get my PT to help me plant.http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/images/smilies/cool.gif

 

[woodlandfarms]

OK, first thing. Did you say lift and tilt work? If so, it is not your pump. Can you turn your tractor right (meaning, does one steering cylinder work and the other not?)

Two things... First, if the steering wheel spins freely, and you cannot steer left or right, give it a tug. My pin cotter pin vibrated off my steering wheel.

If you have to spin the wheel a lot to get it to turn right or left, I think one of your steering cylinders is clogged / failed.

You said the engine kept dying. If that is the case, you may be bypassing somewhere. Did you check to see if you accidently left on your PTO switch or bumped it on?

Initially I don't think your engine dying is related to your steering if you can lift tilt and dump but not steer.

More info please....

 

[MossRoad]

Did you check to see if you accidently left on your PTO switch or bumped it on?

Having done that once or twice myself, I would agree that would be the first thing to check.

 

[PT1445Farmer]

Woodlandfarms - I could turn to the right with full effect. I could turn a bit to the left on level ground but the cyclinders would not hold the position. The wheel was spinning easily to the left, without movement from the tractor. I had a bucket full of dirt and was just backing out from the hill when it became apparent that turning the wheel to the left had no resistance.
I initially thought it was a cotter pin or lack of connection with just the steering wheel. That does not seem to be the issue because I could turn to the right as normal.
I might have accidentally turned the PTO on, but I doubt it. Am going to my farm in TN on Tuesday but really need to have all my parts, plans, tools, and knowledge from the PT "Village Wisemen" - as in, you guys.
Yes, I agree that the engine dying and the steering issue are separate.
1. What parts do you think I need to get this going again? Unfortunately, my parts book is at my farm. Hopefully Terry at PT can get me set before I drive the several hours to the farm for repairing.
2. Recommended spare valves, motors, etc.? Willing to spend big bucks to not lose time in the future.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[SnowRidge]

Just to confirm, you did check to see if you had blown a fitting or hose? No oil in the tub area or on the ground? I ask because a wheel that spins easily like that is a symptom of a blown steering hose.

I suppose it could still steer to the right if the rupture was in the left side circuit, until it ran out of fluid. If you did not let it run long, it might not have run out of fluid.

Whatever you do, you want to confirm that you aren't losing fluid before you even start it again. If you loose all your hydraulic fluid, the drive pump will be destroyed. They are very expensive.

 

[J_J]

The steering valve could have a defect in the left turn position.

 

[PT1445Farmer]

I did not notice any fluid leaking though I did not look for any. Will check for one before starting her up again. Another inspection item I will look at when I check the tractor on Tuesday.
Since I do not have the diagram in front of me for the hydraulic system, I am guessing that there is a valve for each direction - right or left - and a control system for actuating the valve proportionate to the turn, plus the cylinder that moves the body in the desired direction. Hoses connecting everything.
That means buy hoses, one valve, and one servo controller - or whatever the mechanism is that translates the wheel turning into a proportionate cylinder move. Anyone have part no.'s?
Grateful!

 

[woodlandfarms]

I had something like this happen to my PT. Here is what happened I could spin the wheel to the left, and nothing would happen, I could spin the wheel to the right and it would go.. I got home doing right hand loopedy loops..

The problem was debris in my steering cylinder (the pistons on the left and right side of the seat). Inside the cylinder is some sort of a valve or gate and debris can stick it open, or it can just fail open. So pressure is lost through that piston. A little is backed up, enough to push the other cylinder a bit (You could kinda move in one direction, but really move in the other, right?)

If you grab a cylinder, turn the wheel, you can generally feel which one is getting pressure and which one is bypassing.

Do not do this unless you confirm with Terry, but I think if you pull the two hoses off the cylinder you feel has died and cap the hoses with a real cap, that will pressurise the other cylinder enough to drive it out of harms way.

I ripped one of my cylinders completely off due to a bad weld, but was able to steer, albiet slowly (one cylinder has to fill up completely before the other cylinder takes over the load or something crazy like that)

To repair, Terry sent me two new rebuild kits for the cylinder. Easy to pull of, but a NIGHTMARE to take apart. I actually had to take them in to a machine shop to have them opened, and the machine shop was very upset with me as they struggled.

This being said, You loosen the cylinder caps ON the tractor, using a large pipe wrench. Then unbolt and pull the pistons apart, put the new plungers in and slide it back together with ample oil to lubricate. JJ can tell you exactly how to do this. I did not do this, although I had planned to, because I could not get my cylinders apart. Someone at PT is very, very strong.

I have had my steering control apart on my PT due to a leak. From what Terry told me it is not a high failure area so I would put it on the steering cylinder. Also, if it fails it generally fails so you cannot steer at all.

As for a chart of hoses, you are SOL. You could spend money making up a raft of hoses, or just make maybe a couple of long ones and a couple of short ones but I would not do that. If you blew a hose, I am sure you would have noticed it. Oil would run down the center column and pour out the foot holes.

As for stalling, I still thing it is the PTO being switched on.

Carl

 

[PT1445Farmer]

Woodlandfarms,
I think you nailed the problem. Your description of the problem sounds exactly like what I have experienced. Considering the PT was in a dirty, muddy, high grass areas it makes complete sense.
Going to call Terry right away and see what parts I need and the process required to get going again. I have a pretty solid machine shop including a hydraulic press so perhaps I can get this done myself.
Your help has been invaluable!
Thanks again one and all...Will be working on gathering the parts today, checking with Terry, and repairing the tractor tomorrow. Expect some good news shortly.

 

[PT1445Farmer]

Just spoke with Terry. He wants me to unbolt the head of one cyclinder and see whether it is activating or not. WoodlandFarms - Based on your repair description, I will be able to crank the cyclinder apart and repair it. Very strange for it to happen so easily. Makes me think this is going to be a routine problem. Since the PT is in the muck often with all the rain we have been getting - 7" so far this month - this will be a routine I will have to execute often. Arrgggh. I enjoy driving and farting around with this PT1445, can't stand the thought of it going under the repair wrench. When she works, there is nothing better IMO.

I have a solid 60 hp 4wd tractor that runs perfectly but I hardly use because I enjoy the PT so much more.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I doubt the failure is related to the conditions you are in. I will bet it is related to stuff settling internally. Or just a manufacturing defect.

I fixed mine 70 hours ago and no problems since.

Guess what I am saying is don't buy a shelf full of the cylinder kits. Maybe a spare, not much more.

Please let us know how hardit is to tear your cylinder apart. Like I said, the machine shop had to use a massive pipe wrench, along with a torch. Marred the heck out of the exterior but no damage to the inside.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Also, we need to discuss your overheating issue, get that resolved ASAP. I assume it is the Deutz you are overheating, right?

What kind of conditions are you mowing in? You overheat during spring mowing or fall mowing?

Have you made any mods? We have a list of good ones, especially if you are going to a machine shop or are taking your welder up north with you...

 

[PT1445Farmer]

Paid for two new cylinders to be 2nd day aired to me - $300 expense since I am out of warranty. Going to have the current cylinders rebuilt and keep as spares. Terry said the good cylinder might have been damaged because it was compensating for the bad one.

I am not looking forward to opening the hydraulic system up out in the field, but that is what I need to do. Is it as simple as disconnecting the hoses, quickly reconnecting the new cylinder, then swapping out the old for the new cylinder in the mounts?

WoodlandFarms - I think it was your post..not sure..where the PT1445 or similar caught fire and it required a rebuild. I took the advice contained on this forum and that article and bought a larger fan, added screens to the outside vents, and watching for debris accumulating on the cooler radiator. The overheating is a major PIA problem and I need to solve that now. We are already hitting the 80's. Anything else to add for keeping the Deutz cooler?

 

[J_J]

PT1445Farmer,

How did you determine that a cylinder was bad? I see that you ordered some new cylinders, and that is OK, but what if that is not the problem. What trouble shooting did you use to determine the cylinder was bad.

When I thought my joystick was bad, I took it out and had a hydraulic shop test it. It was good , and saved me replacing an expensive valve. One has to use theoretical and logical trouble shooting in tracking down problems. For instance, you said the left turn had a problem. So, I would take the cylinder out of the circuit and cap the lines as Carl mentioned, and if the right cylinder worked fine, I would take the right cylinder out, and cap those lines, and put the right cylinder where the left was. and then try a left turn, If it still not functioning correctly, then the steering control valve has a problem. and those valves cost around $400.

As far as tearing down those cylinders, Try and break it loose while mounted to the PT, and then remove it and complete the disassembly . Look for any scoring, note the direction of the o-rings and seals. Replace everything in the kit, and lube everything well, and put everything back together, and test for any leaks. Some of the o-rings have a lip that has to go a certain way. Just be careful when you remove the o-rings, and not leave a bur on the edge of the lands. Use a plastic pick to remove the o-rings, or use the sharp metal picks if you are careful, or just squeeze the sides of the o-ring and push hard and it will bunch up and you can grab it with your fingers.

To service the rod end cap, you have to remove a nut or bolt in the bottom of the rod, If it seems hard to remove, it probably has Locktight on the threads, and when reassembling, put Locktight back on the threads.

http://www.epm.com/design_repair_instal.htm

 

[woodlandfarms]

Ahhh. To have money to buy spare cylinders. Probably not a bad idea, you can use them down the road for other projects.

Cleanliness is next to godliness. Maybe some brake cleaner spray. If you are in the weeds, maybe a few caps for the hoses (1/2" Inserts for JIC fittings I think but someone double check me on that).

Basically get the tractor sitting straight, loosen the bolts holding the cylinders and remove the nuts. You can remove one bolt completely (usually the front) if it makes it easier, If you were doing one side, I would suggest putting the tractor turned as wide open to the side you are replacing, makes it easier, but as you are doing both, it will suck on both sides equally ;-)

Anyway, remove the hoses, mine stay close to how they should hook up, but you may want to bring some tape to mark what hose goes to the front of the cylinder.

Also, those nuts and bolts, I think they are like 11/16 or something big, so make sure you go with big tools...

Do not under tighten or over tighten the hoses. if you under tighten you get an oil drip, if you over tighten just a PITA to take off. I say this because my BIL is reefer, he loves to break wrenches tightening things. Don't go that tight. you do not need to put any goop on the connectors. They just go on and off, no tape.

Other than that... While you are there, tighten your center section bolt...

 

[PT1445Farmer]

WoodlandFarms (WF for short) and J_J)
I definitely appreciate the knowledge you have both shared. J_J - I have no way of testing the tractor and talking on the phone since I live a long drive away from my farm, plus the tractor is out in the field with no cell phone reception. This is why I wanted to overbuy parts, tools, and supplies, plus learn from you guys what the possibilities were for parts that might go bad and cause this. WF seemed to have the exact same problem and he needed a rebuilt cylinder. Since I triple back-up everything that is critical to my pursuits, buying back-up cylinders was not a problem for me. I will probably source back-ups for most of the components of the PT hydraulic circuit. Time is more valuable to me than money.
WF - Am using your advice as my packing list for my journey tomorrow and my work on the farm and PT on Wednesday. If I get her working with the new cylinders, anyone flying over mid TN will see a big WF scratched into my cow pasture

 

[woodlandfarms]

Dude, if I get this one right it will be the first right answer I have had in 4 years on this board. I will carve your initials... well.. lets say if it works it will put a smile on my face.

Get some pix please, part of the requirement of this group. No pix, no posts ;-)

Also, I know I missed it somewhere, but where is your PT roughly? You might find a PT guru in the hood to help you out.

Carl

 

[PT1445Farmer]

Oh Wise Men - WoodlandFarms and J_J especially - I have seen the stricken beast and KUDOS for nailing the problem. I should say, problems.
Will post pics after I take them tomorrow.
1. The right side cylinder connection cracked off; and
2. the hose fitting cracked out of the cylinder; and
3. the hose covering was sliced, though probably not through the pressured part.
All of this destruction means that you guys were right when you suspected that I was losing hydraulic fluid, and that one of the cylinders was toast.
Lastly, I may have burnt the pump and the steering valve. Just damm.
Cannot really blame this directly on PT, though they apparently have a weak link with both these cylinders and the way they connect them.
Now I have to flush the hydraulic system, reload it with oil (10w30 is what I think Terry mentioned to use) and determine if the system is still functional or I need new valves or a pump. Ouch. 20 hours and already deep in repairs.

As an aside, I had to use my other standard tractor. Took about 1.5 hour just to change my freaking lift forks for my bucket! At that rate, even with repairs the PT is still the faster tool.

Once again, great work all!

 

[PT1445Farmer]

My PT is in middle TN. As far as I can tell, no one has ever heard of Power-Trac, much less seen one. For CUT's, this Kubota country.
May be your first correct answer in 4 years, but it was a grand slam. Looks like ordering two cylinders was a good idea.
And for grins WF, as soon as my PT is fully functional, I am going to mow the foot high grass just as I said I would. About 5 acres of W, and 5 of F.

 

[ponytug]

The damage sounds as if you ran into (over? through?) something, e.g. a tee post or metal pipe, that ripped the fitting and hose out of the cylinder.

Unless you ran out of oil, I would be surprised if you toasted the pump.

All the best,

Peter