Prosecute the parents?

[patrickg]

In the Jul/Aug '01 issue of "Farm Journal" There is an article discussing the death of a 3 yr old boy who was killed while riding with his 5 yr old brother down a state highway in the bucket of a skid steer loader being operated by his father. The 3yr old bounced out and his head was driven over by the father. Due to an ongoing series of "child endangerments" in agricultural settings the district attourney was urged to bring charges against the father/operator. The father was charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of a child. The prosecuter said that the loss was a severe punishment and that he would recommend against jail time, instead he would move for safety training and community service.

There is a fine line but it seems that prosecution hinges on whether the parents knew or should have known their actions are dangerous. In this case the equipment had a warning sticker saying "No Riders". Accident or criminal negligence? If the warning sign were not there in plain sight then you would have to decide if the operator "knew" better or if the danger was unknown and therefore trully an accident. Letting a child talk on the phone shouldn't be criminalized when a child is killed by lightning via the phone I F there was no warning of an approaching storm or if it could be shown that the parent was truly ignorant of the risk.

Lucky for the father that I am not in a position to impose his sentence. I would parade him around the state with before and after pictures of his son. Cute kid with smile (before) gruesome gory bloody mess (after) and have him speak to various groups about child safety. I would include agricultural venues as well. Children are a SERIOUS responsibility. Young children can't look after themselves and willingly and joyfully go to their deaths because it looks like fun.

In this one county, Perry County in PA, in 18 months there were 3 farm related deaths of small children. Someone is not paying attention. Even if this is an anomaly, when multiplied across the country would be a tremendous loss of life of innocents unable to see to their own welfare. I don't have kids (but I was one once) and I'm incensed at this report.

Patrick

 

[TerryinMD]

My kids always ask if they can ride in the FEL. I give them the "what planet were you born on" look and just say no. After carrying concrete blocks, wood, etc., and seeing it bounce around, I just couldn't imagine having one of them ride in it. That's why were the parents!!!

I couldn't image if something like that ever happened. Probably turn out to be a homeless drunk......

 

[Anonymous Poster]

With the facts as you provided, I don’t believe there was any criminal intent…

I cherish my girls, as I ‘m sure most all parents do with their children… I believe this father will be in his own prison the rest of his life… What started out to make his little boy’s happy with an “innocent and harmless” ride in the bucket turned tragic in a microsecond.

They put erasers on pencils to fix mistakes… but all the erasers in the world won’t fix this one… I believe the DA made a wise decision not to prosecute and for the alternative safety training I praise…

I pray for the boy’s father & family…

 

[Knight9]

Amen.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

I don't know what the DA could do to this guy that would be any worse than what he is doing to himself.

Mistakes can be merciless teachers. Some mistakes are small and some are not so small. It never ceases to amaze me how fast things can go from a beautiful day to something going horribly wrong. I still can not believe that anyone actually lives long enough to die of old age. I've made plenty of mistakes but luckily I haven't taken myself out of the gene pool just yet...

 

[patrickg]

JohnMiller said: With the facts as you provided, I don’t believe there was any criminal intent…

Right, no criminal intent, it wasn't premeditated murder. It however was reckless endangerment. My goodness running down the state highway with kids in a bucket?????? What about the sticker, no riders? What about child safety restraint and seatbelt laws????


JohnMiller said: I believe this
father will be in his own prison the rest of his life… What started out to make his little
boy’s happy with an “innocent and harmless” ride in the bucket turned tragic in a
microsecond.

Agreed. Everyone quoted in the story agreed. Doesn't change the fact that it was gross negligence and can't be excused due to parents grief. Precisely because you can't "take it back" is why it should be prosecuted.

I could go with “innocent and harmless” a bit easier if this accident happened at reduced speed in their yard or driveway but a state highway???? How could he have dodged another vehicle that could have endangered them??

Sorry to disagree John. The item in the magazine stated that the prosecuter would prosecute but would not recommend incarceration but instead community service and safety training. To do anything less sends the wrong message. Sorry doesn't cut it. Did you do something obviously dangerous (sign prohibited riders) to someone in your charge who couldn't fend for themselves (a sacred trust was broken).

Society should demand prosecution. Incarceration, not necessarily, it depends, that is as far as I can waffle on this.

Patrick

 

[Bird]

Whew, you're tough, Patrick./w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif Let's see . . ., if I remember right, the purpose of prosecution and punishment is supposed to be rehabilitation of the "criminal"; i.e., prevent him from doing it again. How likely is it that this father will do something like this again? Of course, I realize that as a practical matter, we also punish people as an example to others, and for revenge. I certainly agree he did something stupid, reckless, never should have happened, etc., and who among us has not; most of us were just lucky and got away with it. The publicity surrounding this incident should discourage others from doing the same, or at least I would think so. So, then what good can come of prosecuting the father, spending tax dollars to do so, etc.?

Bird

 

[ejb]

Stickers on the side of a tractor, are not laws. Not obeying a sticker is not the same as not obeying the law. Give the guy a break.

Since you don't have kids of your own, there is no possible way you can know what this man is going thru. Putting him in jail would do absolutely no good, and would cause the other child(ren) to loose a parent.

Besides, a state highway probably makes it sound a lot worse than it was. I live on a "state highway". I have no choice to cut across it at times, and yes, sometimes with a child on my lap. I very seriously doubt this guy was commuting 50 miles away at 65mph to some distant location on this "state highway".

Defintely no a smart thing to do, and now both he and his child have paid the price. Accidents happen.




<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by ejb on 09/06/01 03:44 PM (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[Mike_Dumond]

Prosecute...YES. Incarcerate...NO. As John said, there was no criminal intent. If you think about it, he was doing something that doesn't happen too often. He was spending time with his kids. True, he did something very foolish, stupid even. But his intent was to enjoy his children, not to hurt them. How many people here, can honestly say they haven't done anything foolish or stupid in their lives that could have resulted in injury to someone else.

I can see the hands going up now. Someone saying, not me, I wouldn't do that. Unfortunately, if we're being honest, I don't think anyone can say that. The extent of the injury might be different, but the principal remains the same. Ever go hunting with someone? Do you walk around with an unloaded weapon? Doesn't make sense to go hunting with the ammo in your pocket, we just won't chamber a round and we'll keep the safety on.

How about working around the house? Have a friend over, nice Saturday afternoon, have a few beers. Did you supply everyone with a hard hat, safety goggles, make sure they knew how to use the power tools?

I could go on with this list, make it so long that they'd have to make it into a movie. And it would only include stupid, foolish mistakes that no one seems to remember. Do we lock you up, because your friend took 3 days to wake up after you accidently dropped a hammer on his head? Or because your buddy has only one eye left after a chip from the power saw entered his unprotected eye?

And if we lock you up, then how are you going to be able to appologize to your family for accidently shooting your son, because you tripped on a branch.

Now, some of you are going "yea, right". Well, YEA,RIGHT. If you look at my profile, you'll see that I'm a paramedic. Been doing this for 14 years. And I've seen stupid, foolish actions hurt and kill friends and family. I've picked up the little kids that were run over by accident. Do you look under your car when you leave?

I've cried my share of tears over foolish stupid, accidents. I've been angry with stupid, foolish people. Would locking them up help with the healing process? You need to remember, they may be the perpetrator of the incident, but they are also a victim.

Damn, I didn't want to be long winded, sorry. Let's not make ourselves holier than thou. We've all been there, just some of us were 'lucky'.

Keep the greasy side down.
Mike

 

[Anonymous Poster]

All right Patrick, it looks as if I am going to have to take you on. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
I realize and freely admit that this fellow in the bobcat did not use the best judgment. However, you cannot legislate common sense. Things don't always work out like we had hoped for. It looks to me like this guy did not do something that was incredibly stupid. Although we both agree that he did do something that neither one of us would have done. I choose to believe that this guy just had a lapse in judgment and will have to pay a hefty price for it for the rest of his life. I know that many things that I do are inherently dangerous but There By The Grace of God Go I. An example is cutting firewood. Very dangerous. I have made mistakes. I still have ten fingers and ten toes. And luck has as much to do with it as skill does. We both live in the country and therefore get involved in many more dangerous things than many city dwellers. Mowing the lawn is more dangerous for us because we do it on a tractor. I cringe whenever my dog comes running up to the mower because I have heard of too many animal accidents having to do with them. I'm not even counting rollovers. We will not even get into how dangerous sickle bar mowers are. My point is that it is a wonder that anyone can live a long life without being killed by accident. And that is just exactly what this was. An accident. I realize that this guy is not without blame. I also realize that I have done things that were not too smart but I just didn't know it at the time. Mostly I feel sorry for this guy because I know that it could have been me. Not with the exact same circumstances mind you, but it could have been any one of us. Under the right circumstances it could have even been you. I am not trying to point a finger at you but I am just saying that I have heard of a lot of things that could have been very very bad but somebody got lucky. I had a cousin get run over by a tractor when he was 5. He got squished between the duals and was completely OK. His dad never even saw him. I also had a friend get shot while he was out hunting. He is OK today also. I also know some stories where things did not turn out so good. I am thankful for what I have because it can be taken away from you in an instant, and you never even saw it coming. And I don't think that this guy saw it coming. And one of us might not see it coming either.

 

[patrickg]

The author of the piece (a woman) mentioned that their had been a "rash" of these needless deaths so the prosecuter was moved to take action. Touchy feely aside, the state must do that which is required to maintain order. It was a clear viloation of the law. Irrespective of how sorry anyone was, or how much or often he would punish himself thinking about it, it was the prosecuter's duty to pursue the matter. I think all the leniency required was shown by the prosecuter's intent to not jail the creep. Yes if you will, an example needed to be set, and shuldl have been done in each case waranting it not just after a "rash" of these cases.

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

I respectfully suggest that you dry your eyes, read my original post, and respond to what it actually said not what you apparently thought it said. The prosecuter was moved to file on the guy and stated up front that he would N O T seek jail time but community service and safety training as "punishment".

Don't shoot the messenger! I didn't prosecute the guy. I tried to make a plea for being careful with children, especially the ones too young to know any better. Funny thing, I'm trying to make a case for folks being careful with children and get castigated for trying to lynch the poor ignorant ******* that can't pour water out of a boot with the instructions written on the heel. It ain't me, guy. I wasn't there!

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Mike, Feel better now? Venting usually helps. Note: I never suggested he should do jail time. Don't shoot the messenger. No one suggested he do jail time in themagazine or these possts.

If you are on the scene of an accident where a child gets injured or killed because mommy or daddy wanted to show junior a fun time so they let him sit in their lap and "drive" then something goes wrong and junior is injured or dead, do you excuse the parent because of their loss? Do you think the law requiring seatbelts and child restraints only is for when the parent "feels" like it? Do you objectively measure the depth of their grief (feel their pain) say using a graduated flask to measure on scene tears per unit time and if they exceed your personal expectation then it isn't a legal lissue any more? How much do I have to regret shooting my neighbor before its OK?


Patrick

 

[patrickg]

This and some previous posts are convincing me that this sort of report causes us to quickly line up in one of several (three or so) queues. I think you're in the its OK cause it made him cry a lot and he will be punished by the memories queue. I didn't prosecute the ignorant *******. If I had I may have been moved to file on him for the kids not being in a child restraint while on a state highway for starters. If it encouraged one parent to take proper precautions and prevented injury or death to one defenseless kid then it was a good thing for the state to have done. Feeling bad after later doesn't make it right. I know my apparent anti-touchy feely posture isn't popular just now but all law is not best modified situationally. Jury nullification isn't always a good thing. Sometimes when you do something stupid it is so stupid that it is reasonable to think you know better and that makes you culpable. I do not fail to understand his mental anguish, torment, and heart rending remorse but I do fail to understand how that changes the law. If he were Chester the molester off his medication for a couple days and did someone's daughter's Sunday school class B U T cried a lot and was truly conflicted over it and really really wished he hadn't done it, would that excuse him from prosecution?

Patrick

 

[RPM]

I side with patrickg on this one.

It is 'reckless endangerment' - the parent/operator should know better - the kids don't and therefore need some measure of protection - they are the classic innocents in these cases. If it was an adult riding in the bucket it would be their own dumb fault.

However sad, it is absolutely necessary to prosecute these cases to the fullest to PROTECT other children by making other operators think about their actions.

Maybe there should be a new acronym - DWS - Driving While Stupid.

Patrick

 

[cowboydoc]

I also have a real problem with prosecuting this guy for that. My girls ride the mule all over the pasture. It clearly states noone under 16 should ride. If they get in a wreck on it and one of them gets hurt does that mean that I should be prosecuted? She also has her own four wheeler and go-cart that she is not at the age to ride either. If she gets hurt should I be held responsible? She also goes out every day to help me feed and drives the truck while I throw hay off the back. It's in 4 low and granny gear going about 5 mph but I suppose something could happen. She also ropes calves and heels in team roping. Sometimes ropers get their hands or thumbs caught in the dally and get it jerked off. If she gets hurt roping am I responsible? If I get prosecuted for a felony like this guy I lose my license to practice. I don't think that I'm putting my daughter in any danger but I'm sure there are those of you out there that are horrified that she does those things. Who is the judge and jury here?

Who's right and who's wrong? Like someone pointed out that warning labels are not there to be laws they are there to protect the company from lawsuits. There was an interesting case here in town where a guy ran a red light on accident and was charged with assault because the guy in the other car was injured. They later pleaded it to reckless driving. How ridiculous is that? It came out that the guy was from the west and had just moved out here. Alot of the old street lights here are not in the middle of the intersection but rather on the side of the street. He had never seen traffic lights on the side of the street. But what should have been a simple traffic light ticket turned into a nightmare for this guy.

If you prosecute this guy for criminal negligence or whatever then how many of us haven't sped with kids in the car? That's breaking the law isn't it? Now what if you get in a wreck because you were speeding and one of your kids gets hurt or killed? Does that mean we prosecute you? This guy didn't even break any laws that he knew of. Maybe the guy didn't know that his kid would bounce out of the skidsteer. I'm sure he didn't. Accidents happen period.

There is not one person on this board that can say they did not do a stupid act that could have resulted in the death of another person. Just because it looks stupid after the fact doesn't mean the person knew it was stupid at the time. Let me give you a perfect example. When I was about 16 years old I was out target shooting with my .22. It was a lever action and I got a shell jammed in it. Well I thought ok I can just hit the lever really hard and get the shell out. Well the shell went off and part of the casing came back and stuck in the orbital bone of my eye. I had to go and have it dug out and stitches. The doc said that if it had been a quarter inch lower it would have went through my eye. DUMB looking back on it but at the time it seemed like a good idea. I just have a real hard time holding people responsible for accidents that were not in anyway intentional. Where do you draw the line? Like I said before what seem really stupid and irresponsible to one is not to another person. Yes learn from mistakes but don't prosecute people for making mistakes. If that's the case then we are all in alot of trouble.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Patrick…

I absolutely love your passion for justice… I wish this sort of passion was used to prosecute all the gun and drug cases that get plea bargained down to jaywalking… {of course I’m exaggerating… but in some cases I’m not too far off…}

In this particular case, I think the DA used some good old fashion common sense and justice was served correctly.

I would use all your arguments and energy against the drug and gun cases that don’t have common sense applied for justice.

Yes, I agree… Let’s prosecute the parents… of the suspects {kids?} of every school shooting that has ever, and will ever occur on U.S. soil.

We certainly don’t need more laws or legislation enacted …only to be ignored… we need the current laws to be enforced and prosecuted…

We need simple common sense back in the system…

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Holy exaggeration Batman, all I was saying is crap happens. Life is a dangerous pastime. None of us are going to make it out alive. Some of us will have our lives cut short. I could start naming off people and animals that have been killed off in one way or another that wasn't very pretty. That is one of the few bad things about living in the country. I was not defending this guy's actions, merely stating that life is precious and can be lost at any moment for the most unbelievably stupid thing. Like taking a ride in a bucket.

 

[patrickg]

Justice. My favorite insulated mug said a mouthfull. I had a set of mugs with different comic book characters on each. ONe was Superman another Batman, etc. On the Batman mug, Batman is punching out a stereotypical bad guy with a three day growth of beard and narrow set squinty eyes etc. The bad guy's baloon says, "you can't do this it ain't legal!" As Batman punches him POW!!!, he says, I am not so interested in the law as in justice!"

Sorry, I'm back now. They finally get my medication right for the hot weather and it cools off.

I am not a member of the "First Church on the Left of Whatever Feels Good, Do It!" I have difficulty with situationalism. I have difficulty with Slick Willie's not haveing had *** with that woman. If it were his daughter and a secret service guy, I bet it would have been ***. I have difficulty with the odds that if the previously discussed child endangerment case came up in California, the parents would have found someone to sue based on the spreading belief that if anything bad happens it is someone elses fault and they can be sued.

For 10 yrs my wife and I were in search and rescue (Pac Ocean, coastal region from down in Mex to North county San Diego.) We were uniformed volunteers, an auxilliary unit of the US Coast Guard under official orders and for the duration of our missions considered a Government vessel. Folks used to hate us when we would even suggest they shouldn't have toddlers riding on the bow and that children should wear PFD's not just have them stored under a seat somewhere. I won't even go into the stats on PWC's (Personal Water Craft, wave runners etc.) Heard that three wheelers are outlawed for import due to their danger? PWC stats make three wheelers seem like a childs stroller. Try to say something that will save a life to a moron bent on letting his kids kill other kids with their shiny new torpedos. Tears, weeping, wailing, and nashing of teeth after the fact don't cut it. There are laws now and more on the way to help control that mayhem. Deaths recorded in California for operators as young as 6 yrs. Think the kid bought it with his alowance or maybe dad set him on the seat and shoved him off.

I gotta go (again with apologies to Ian Sholes (Dr. Science, at the Duck's Breath Theater)

Patrick

 

[patrickg]

Yes, and some of us are saying that if what you do is so unbelievably stupid that it is criminally negligent and harms an innocent child the state has the responsibility to prosecute you irrespective of how touchy feely someone gets or how much you cry and rend your garmets. It does not pit us against each other or initiate a Feel the pain contest. No one here would even think , well he deserved to lose the child if he didn't take care of it or anything like that. We aren't monsters but we think there is an orderly process by which the state soberly and carefully attends to its members who risk the lives of those who can't protect themselves.

To do nothing, invites continuation, not necessarily from that "parent" and it pains me to call him that, but from the populace at large. There is a general, lets do whatever feels good and if something bad happens, oh well we'll be sorry, for a bit or find someone to sue. There is personal accountability. It just isn't very popular just now.

In general, in human behavior (or with many animals), behavior which is rewarded is repeated or increased and the contrary is operant also. In the instance in question, not being prosecuted vs being prosecuted would certainly be a reward. Wrong message. I don't have a problem with lenient sentencing, safety training (he has another kid) and community service (spreads the word among the populace).

This just isn't a sympathy contest. I can be extremely sympathetic to his loss but condem him for his personal responsibility in having caused it.

Patrick