OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
Thank you for the education! To you and TripleR (and all the folks here ;-) )
Buying Advice Pretty Sure I have Narrowed It down to Two: Massey 2706e or Kubota MX5800
- Thread starter AuburnAlum
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Thank you for the education! To you and TripleR (and all the folks here ;-) )
SDT
Veteran Member
Premise: I have no direct experience with the MF/Iseki 2706e. I have familiarity with the Kubota MX5800 though I have not owned one. I have extensive experience with Kubota and MF (and others) and limited experience with Iseki.
Facts: MF/AGCO is not Kubota. Nor is MF/AGCO Iseki. The 5 year warranty provided by AGCO for their Iseki produced machines is attractive and certainly worthy of consideration. $4,000 is a significant expenditure and certainly worthhy consideration.
Evidence: I just terminated an 8+ year experience with MF/AGCO and my two closest dealers (different locations of same dealer) due to exceptionally poor post sale treatment by BOTH MF/AGCO and their dealer(s). Both of my MF tractors (2007 and 2012) were replaced within the last two months (at non insignificant expense) by Kubota tractors because I simply had had enough such poor treatment.
I have a Kubota B1750 HST, bought new in 1994, with which I have had absolutely NO problems in the 21+ years that I have owned it. NOTHING, not so much as a fuse, fan belt or lamp bulb. NOTHING. Caveat: it has had excellent care and maintenance but so had both MF tractors).
Problems with both MF tractors started immediately upon delivery and were not satisfactorily rectified during the warranty period. After the warranty period, MF/AGCO/dealer simply washed their hands of EVERYTHING, whether previously worked on or not and insisted upon being paid second and third times to repair problems previously reported and worked on.
To be fair, neither of my MF tractors were made by Iseki, though both clearly stated "Massey Ferguson" on the hood, owners manual, warranty, invoice, etc.
In years past, I owned a small Iseki made tractor and found it to be well made and trouble free, though I owned it for less than two years.
The fundamental issue with MF/AGCO was much more post-sale treatment by BOTH MF/AGCO and their dealer(s) than the machines (though the quality of neither MF tractor approached that of my Kubota tractors).
Both Kubota and my local CNH/Kubota dealer have treated me well (not true of either MF/AGCO or its dealer), though I have no idea how good Kubota's warranty is because I have had no occassion to use it.
Bottom line: MF/AGCO: Never again. Nothing but Kubota in the future.
SDT
Facts: MF/AGCO is not Kubota. Nor is MF/AGCO Iseki. The 5 year warranty provided by AGCO for their Iseki produced machines is attractive and certainly worthy of consideration. $4,000 is a significant expenditure and certainly worthhy consideration.
Evidence: I just terminated an 8+ year experience with MF/AGCO and my two closest dealers (different locations of same dealer) due to exceptionally poor post sale treatment by BOTH MF/AGCO and their dealer(s). Both of my MF tractors (2007 and 2012) were replaced within the last two months (at non insignificant expense) by Kubota tractors because I simply had had enough such poor treatment.
I have a Kubota B1750 HST, bought new in 1994, with which I have had absolutely NO problems in the 21+ years that I have owned it. NOTHING, not so much as a fuse, fan belt or lamp bulb. NOTHING. Caveat: it has had excellent care and maintenance but so had both MF tractors).
Problems with both MF tractors started immediately upon delivery and were not satisfactorily rectified during the warranty period. After the warranty period, MF/AGCO/dealer simply washed their hands of EVERYTHING, whether previously worked on or not and insisted upon being paid second and third times to repair problems previously reported and worked on.
To be fair, neither of my MF tractors were made by Iseki, though both clearly stated "Massey Ferguson" on the hood, owners manual, warranty, invoice, etc.
In years past, I owned a small Iseki made tractor and found it to be well made and trouble free, though I owned it for less than two years.
The fundamental issue with MF/AGCO was much more post-sale treatment by BOTH MF/AGCO and their dealer(s) than the machines (though the quality of neither MF tractor approached that of my Kubota tractors).
Both Kubota and my local CNH/Kubota dealer have treated me well (not true of either MF/AGCO or its dealer), though I have no idea how good Kubota's warranty is because I have had no occassion to use it.
Bottom line: MF/AGCO: Never again. Nothing but Kubota in the future.
SDT
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TSO
Elite Member
First: I feel your issues were definitely dealer related, as both of my local Massey dealers are stellar. The local Kubota dealer, while way overpriced on everything on their lot, is also good. I've heard people complain also about their Kubota, John Deere, NH, etc... Dealers also, and went to other brands because of it. It's unfortunate that you experienced a less than adequate dealer experience.
Second: Your MF machines were not typical of Iseki built Massey quality. Especially your Tafe built machine, which is well known to be problematic, and unfortunately, a bit of pre-purchase research may have been able to reveal that.... Unfortunately, that led you to experience the above dealer deficiencies.
Third: You are correct that your non-Iseki Massey units were not the "same quality" as Kubota. But then, in my experience with two new Iseki-Massey's and three new Kubota machines, the Kubota's haven't been up to the same quality level as my Massey's.
I certainly don't think that Kubota machines aren't quality builds, but it's not accurate for you to blanket statement that MF is not Kubota quality, unless you preface it more specifically.
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No nerves were rattled by your post just stating the facts as I have seen and experienced them.
It seems that with the loader mounted -vs- fender mounted we might find some debate that is more than likely just as bad as the single -vs- dual pedal HST arrangement Personally I haven't found a loader mounted control that lets me sit back and relax in the seat on any brand machine, nor can I find one that lets me keep my arm on the arm rest and still use the control without being cumbersome to use. Still I have no problem with one or the other when using it but prefer the fender mount for ease of use during heavy loader usage.
Funny that I prefer gear over HST but want everything else to be based on comfort and the least amount of reach or work. But then again we are all different and when people are making a request for information here we should always be willing to discuss our personal choices and experience as it will ultimately help them to decide what is more important and what is best for them.
OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
So as i have done more over analysis of my choices I just want to be comfortable with my purchase. Looking higher and lower and just wanted to share some of my work to perhaps save the time for folks down the line. (as it has helped me to look at older threads and not ask the same question) Here is my comparison of the Massey 1736 and the Kubota Grand L3560. Pretty close even on price about +1K for the Kubota.
TSO
Elite Member
Once again, regarding hydraulic output, you need to understand the difference between total flow and specific flow. The L3560 does not run 12+ GPM to the implement circuit (loader, remotes). That number you posted was Implement Flow on the Massey, and Total Flow on the Kubota. If you did Total Flow on the Massey it would be a higher number.
Also, now that you're comparing the "premium" compact line instead of the more budget line (like you did originally) there are other considerations to pay attention to. For example, the HST on that Kubota series offers a Hi-Lo range on the 3-speed tranny. So in effect, you have 6 HST speeds. Certainly not necessary, but it does offer some added flexibility and usability depending on the job. That's technically a bonus for the Kubota.
Another consideration is the pedal setup. The Massey has the dual pedal design, whereas the Kubota has the single treadle pedal (rocker). People that love it love it...people that hate it hate it. I'm not a fan, however it's a very user specific thing. You may love or hate it, but it's something you should at least explore.
A final consideration is that Massey offers two additional years of warranty coverage over there Kubota, nothing to shake a stick at.
Both tractors will do the same exact work for you, and in truth, they are both very good machines, so that allows you to place some weight with your personal feelings once you spend time on both.
OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
I like what the premiums have to offer with both the MF and Kubota HST drives. The feature of having an anti-stall guard is nice. I also like the station of the Grand and the Massey. The treadle or rocker pedal I am not a fan of, don't really hate it, just seems a bit awkward. Looking overall what I can compromise with. I feel I must have extendable lift arms and that cuts all the economy lines.
As for the Hydro flow. I can only blame MF for their crappy marketing and website. It really is irritating. Attached are the images I am working off of for the info. They only list total flow. Where the Kubota site sites both implement and steering flow along with total. I would assume Tractordata.com only take the info that the sites/marketing provide.
Honestly I keep trying to guide myself MF way. There are some other items I will publish (pricing etc) after I buy. But do not want to show my hand to the dealers if I have not shown too much already. Thanks again for the help!
TSO
Elite Member
That number "at remotes" means implement flow. Add steering flow (separate pump) and you get Total Flow.
Again, both good brands. I lean toward Massey because the Iseki machines have really proven to be great on quality and reliability. But Kubota owners really love their Kubota's too, so I'm sure you'd be happy with either.
OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
Ah, I see now. Sorry I have gotten so bleary eyed reading all this dang info. Still cannot find the steering flow but I get the implement flow.
GManBart
Elite Member
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- Massey Ferguson 241, Kubota SVL90-2
Once I put a Pat's Easy Change setup on my LS I never once used the extendable lift arm feature. The Pat's setup made it much, much faster, simpler, and safer to hook up an implement. When I paired that up with a hydraulic top link from Fit Rite Hydraulics it made it that much simpler.
Actually, in this case, their website was providing very specific information, you just have to know how to interpret it. Hydraulic flow to the remotes is implement pump flow. In short, the Massey has about 50% more pump flow to the implements compared to the Kubota. That generally only shows up in how fast the implements move...bucket curl/dump, etc. It's not the biggest thing, but it's nice to not have to wait on the machine constantly. They have similar numbers to the steering pump, and I can't recall ever reading anybody complaining about slow steering response with any modern machines, so it's probably not worth considering.
GManBart
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We've all been there, and paralysis by analysis is pretty common when it comes to this sort of decision. In this case you're looking at quality machines that will do what you want, so buy whichever one will make you smile the most when you look at it in the barn, or plop down in the seat.
Agree with the others that you're considering two excellent brands with comparable models. Either would serve you well, so choose the one you favor for yourself. The Kub dealer in Winston is a long-time ag equipment dealer from the days when farming was close to that part of town. Good people to do business with, according to some farmers and landscapers I know. Several other good Kub dealers in the area also. The MF dealer is a bit more recent, but still well established. Don't know anything pro or con regarding him.
jenkinsph
Super Star Member
The HST+ with the hydraulic hi lo is a step up for box blade work imo. Kubota has it and Deere doesn't. That is one thing I would gladly pay extra for as it allows you to reverse at a faster speed and pull the box blade forward at the lower speed with more force.
OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
Great advice Gents. I was on the road today and traveling past a Deere dealer I used to work with when I lived closer. Still with reach of my house and I was pleasantly surprised that it was not associated with a large chain. Net, great experience so I struck up a conversation on a 3039R. Good pricing still more expensive by a good amount but put it in the game. So here is my due diligence on the comparison.
TSO
Elite Member
Okay, I couldn't take it anymore LOL ... Looked up the actual Specs for the Hydraulic Flow.
The Kubota L3560 HST Lists: Implement Flow: 8.1 GPM. Steering Flow: 4.7 GPM. Total Flow: 12.8 GPM. 3pt Lift @ 24" = 2,650 lbs
The Deere 3039R HST Lists: Implement Flow: 8.6 GPM. Steering Flow: 5.3 GPM. Total Flow: 13.9 GPM. 3pt Lift @ 24" = 2,200 lbs
The Massey 1736 HST Lists: Implement Flow: 11.6 GPM. Steering Flow: (?)....... Total Flow: (?) ........ 3pt Lift @ 24" = 2535 lbs
The Massey total GPM numbers are not easy to find online for some reason. However, if you have an operators manual, it'll all be in there. For example, my previous 1648 had 11.6 GPM @ the remotes, and 4.9 GPM at the Steering Pump, totaling 16.5 GPM. My 1652 has 12.3 GPM Implement & 5.2 Steering GPM, = 17.5 GPM total. I'm assuming the 1736 is similar to that.
https://www.kubota.com/assets/product/Comps/L60/GrandL60ModelsCompPDF.pdf
http://maplelanefarmservice.ca/reso...ey_Ferguson_1700_Premium_Series_Specsheet.pdf
https://www.deere.com/en_US/product...ries/3039r_compact_utility_tractor/3039r.page
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OP
AuburnAlum
Bronze Member
Haha! In the back of my mind I thought it might irritate the tar out of you when I posted that incomplete data. You also now know I could not find all the MF info too. ;-) Sorry for my lazy way (thus the double asterisk), it really is a credit to you as I believe what you have been talking about from the beginning with regard to MF having higher flow. Thank you for the 3pt lift at 24" too.
TSO
Elite Member
SDT
Veteran Member
Firstly, what you feel is irrelevant. What I experienced is fact. Both Massey Ferguson AND Their dealer treated me badly.
Secondly, Both of my Massey Ferguson tractors clearly stated "MASSEY FERGUSON" on the hood, owners manual, warranty, invoices, etc. Moreover, their dealer's sign also said "MASSEY FERGUSON." Nowhere did I see "TAFE." In the event that you do not know, when you put your name on something, it's yours.
To be fair, both of my MF tractors were somewhat less expensive (and somewhat heavier) than the most comparable models offered by Kubota. That said, my experience has taught me that I would have been money and hours ahead had I simply bought the most comparable (though somewhat more expensive) Kubota models in both 2007 and 2012, rather than EITHER of the MF tractors that I did buy. I have lived and I have learned.
Again, MF is not Kubota.
Never again.
SDT
TSO
Elite Member
Your broken-record catch phrases always make me chuckle. Thanks for the laugh
But, and please correct me if I'm wrong... But I've read thru nearly every post you've written and I still don't recall EVER seeing you post the problems you had with your tractor and/or dealer. Any chance you could explain to us exactly what happened that soured the milk so? It could certainly help with adding some credibility to your statements, as well as help potential customers with future purchases.
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Steppenwolfe
Super Member
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Ditto. When I started my tractor buying journey I quickly learned there was only one tractor out there that was what it said it was, Kubota. So what if they cost more, cheap isn't always a practical option.
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