Pressure Treated Lumber

[RonL]

All I can find is .25 pressure treated lumber. I can't find .40 or higher CCA trated lumber. Is this part of the phase out?

RonL

 

[Junkman]

try Morse Lumber in Southbridge, MA.....

 

[DocHeb]

The Home Depot near me carries ground contact, 0.40 retention CCA Lumber.

 

[llewellynsd]

Ronl,
Just at our local Lowes store and most if not all of there pressure treated lumber was .40.

Maybe try them?

 

[Renze]

For our flatbed trailers we just throw a bucket of old engine oil over it and use a street brush on it till everything is soaked in.

That will keep it protected from the elements for 2 or 3 years. Usually i change engine oils earlier than 2 years so there is enough to do all my trailers. Very cheap too... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Soundguy]

Unfortunately that adds quite a bit of 'point source' pollution to the environment. A better choice would be an asphalt paint product... much safer for the environment.. and brushes on just as easy.

You could probably paint copper napthenape on as well.... that preserves and bug proofs real good...

 

[markct]

soundguy, there is alot of oils in asphalt paints also, i would think that some runoff is associated with them also, it seems that as long as the oil isnt too much more than what can be absorbed by the wood then it shouldnt be too much problem. a funny example of environmentalists overbearing ways was proved to me once by something that happened at my fathers workplace. a company was hired to oil and chipcoat the roads in the complex, they had a tractor trailer tanker parked in the parking lot and they transfered the heavy oil from the tractor trailer to the small truck they went around and spread the oil with. well when filling the small truck they managed to somehow spill a decent amount of the oil in the parking lot, so the operator just took a heavy broom and spread it around, and then started to spread stone on it, just like they were doing on the roads. well aparently someone saw this and called the DEP, they showed up with skidsteers and spread sand all over and started scraping up the oil from the parking lot. im sure this cost thousands. it was so sensless since they were spreading it for miles and miles, yet a bit in the parking lot was considered an environmental issue.

 

[Soundguy]

Yes.. that was senseless... The special MS asphalt emulsion prime cures to an enviromentally stable form. You can check the MSDS sheets for it... that is why roads are 'primed' or 'tack' coated before asphalt is applied to limerock finsh grade. Chipseal / coat is very similar.

I'm a CE.. I do this kind of work every day at the road construction co. I work for. Something similar happened to us.. we were overlaying roads in a small community. A nosy neighbor noticed our prime truck had a bit of a leak from the spray bar, and made a small slick on the parking area for our equipment.... they did the same thing.. except that as soon as the dep official got there.. he threw up his hands and left.. knowing that the asphalt emulsion was environmentally inert..
Apparently the 'anonymous' caller said we were dumpil 'oil' on the ground... In the pollution controll world, there is a big difference from 'oil' and 'asphalt emulsion'.

As for the asphalt paint I spoke of, once the voc's evaporate, the remaining asphalt residue is also nearly env. inert.... No water contamination once cured.. no leaching or migration.. etc. again.. MSDS's are free... you can check them yourself.

Used engine oil.. which by the way, is classified as a hazardous waste by the dep. will not cure, and will leach and migrate from the wood.

There was a huge discussion about this about a year ago... bottom line was.. why polute when there is a better way... ( not cheaper.. as the used oil is -free-.. but there is a better way.. )

Used oil in a can in your shop soaking tools is one thing.. but applied in a manner where it is highly likely to contaminate the environment is at least irresponsible, and in the extreme.. illegal.

If you want more info on the legality of introducing waste oil into the environment, look up a recent court case in volusia county, florida... Public works workers and contractors were discovered doing this.. big story.. lotsa fines and jail time..

Aside from the facts.. keep in mind that this earth has to last all of us the rest of our lives, and the rest of our race's life.

Believe me.. I'm not a 'green' thumper... I realize that inadvertant pollution is inveitable.. a drip here, and there isn't the problem... the problems are the sources that we can control...

Soundguy

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Soundguy, I am also NOT a green advocate, but I don't want my well contaminated by people who THINK they are doing something smart. I appreciate your post and your explinations.

I also am very surprised that nobody bothered to say anything about the dangers of CCA pressure treated lumber. That stuff is just plain bad to use, be around, and worse yet let your kids come in contact with. I have some on my property but I don't like, and I hate using it. And now that there are safer alternatives that work just as well, I never buy the stuff.

 

[Soundguy]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Soundguy, I am also NOT a green advocate, but I don't want my well contaminated by people who THINK they are doing something smart. I appreciate your post and your explinations.
)</font>

Thanks for the words of support. Often after apost like this I expect a rash of hatemail about being a conservative environmentalist, or something to that effect.. when i am really only trying to point out that we are all stewards of the environment. There will be some pollution sources that we just can't feasably control.... like the erant drip of oil while the tractor is running in the field.. etc.. It is the controllable sources that we need to button up...
Luckilly as you point out, many new products are on the market in the last few decades that are considerably more friendly to the environment, and still very effective.
( Anyone remember chloradain ( spelling? ) termiteacide.. worked great... for years and years and years untill we found out how long it lasts and how toxic it was.. to us.. )



</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I also am very surprised that nobody bothered to say anything about the dangers of CCA pressure treated lumber. That stuff is just plain bad to use, be around, and worse yet let your kids come in contact with. I have some on my property but I don't like, and I hate using it. And now that there are safer alternatives that work just as well, I never buy the stuff. )</font>

Good point. most of us overlook the effect of arsenic as it really isn't 'seen' on a daily basis.. and doesn't leave an oil slick on water for the dialy news to broadcast. Though I'm no chemist.. I believe that arsenic slowly build up in the body until it reaches an 'effective' level.. and that is when you see the problems. That coupled with the fact that it is slow to leave the body is what eventually led most federal jobsites involving children.. ( playgrounds.. parks.. etc ) to go to the NON-cca lumber.. etc.

Strangely enough.. seems like arsenic standards for 'allowable' concentraion levels are being relaxed... go figure.

thanks

Soundguy

 

[Darren]

The higher grades of CCA lumber are still available and will still be available after the residential use phaseout. The marine grade, either 2.4 or 2.5 (I forget which), is still available through the specialty lumber yards as compared to the .25 or .4 stuff carried in the so-called home centers. FYI, I didn't misplace any decimal points. Marine grade is treated to a much higher retention. The stuff has a very dark green almost black appearance. If you used it in a non-salt environment, I suspect it wouldn't deteriorate for generations. Not so for the .24 or .4 stuff.

If you're dealing with a yard that orders directly from a treatment plant, forget Home Depot, Lowes and the like, you can special order any rough cut or dimension lumber treated to marine grade. BTDT. Will be doing it again in the future for some 10x10 poles.

 

[Soundguy]

Speaking of long lasting... The company i work for has to do some demolition every now and then adjacent to the road work we are doing.

We had to remove an old boat ramp on a lake, and pulled 4x4 and 6x6 rought cut cresote timbers out of the lake.. they were using the 6x6 as pylons. The timbers were exposed to the water, and as much as 4' of mud/silt/sand.

Every single timber was as stout as they day it was cooked.

In fact, we made a pile of them while tearing down, and many of them even started sweating the oil out while in the sun, just like a new one would.

We ended up carrying them back to the shop to use as wheel chocks ( 4x4) and other misc... items.

Here's the catcher.... municipality we were working for stated that that portion of the peir was original, and made in the 50's... neat... a testament to the preservative powers of the oil from a desert 'weed'.

Soundguy

 

[Darren]

Water isn't necessarily bad. Cedar posts as long as they're either constantly wet (under ground) or relatively dry (above ground) last a long time. Unfortunately they rot away right at the ground where they go through constant cycles of longer term soaking and drying.

The longest lasting wood, it beats creosote treated stuff, is osage orange. In a test that's been running 52 years, osage orange posts show no signs of deterioration while the creosoted posts have deteriorated.

 

[pekabu]

There was a big write up about on of the Churches in Boston, MA. Most of Boston is filled in marsh land if you haven't heard that before. One of the oldest churches is getting fixed up, and one of the things they did was to dig around and check the pilings. The architect did an incredible job of overdesigning (sound familiar: ) ) the base. Part of the design was a way for them to check water table level, and when not enough add water to ensure the pilings were constantly wet. He did his job well. After >100 years only a couple had deteoriated at the top because of exposure.

Now, if he had only designed the Leaning Tower of Pisa it wouldn't be so famous. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[Soundguy]

Speaking of deteriorating at the top.. I've noticed fence posts usually die from hollowing out at the top first... treatment must not make it all the way thru in the same concentration.. leaving a 'weak' space int he middle.

I sealed the tops of all my fence posts using a sponge and pail of asphalt paint.. I gave them a good complete drencing.. lettingthe excess run don the sides ( they are cresote.. so black anyway ).. sealed them up good.

My posts show no signs of any degredation after 3 ys.. whereas the neighbor who put up a fence section 2 ys ago using pt.. already has some post hollowing out and becoming concave on top...

Soundguy

 

[Renze]

Last autumn, we removed the fenceing from a piece of horse land we sold to our neighbor.
half of the poles (diameter 12 cm, bitumen tar treated), looked fine on teh outside but were hollow in the inside. especially at ground level, the poles were worst.

My grand dad used home made cloven oak trees as fence posts, in some spots we have oak posts from my grand dad, that eroded on the outside but the core is still hard.

About the oil: I dont know. mankinf has very little effect on Co2 emission. 97% is caused by natural events, like underground coal field fires, in some areas of china. Those coal fields burn underground, and it is burning as long as the local population can remember.
Also volcano bursts are very big Co2 emitters.

The oil in high concentrations is bad for the environment, i agree.. But the few droplets that rain off my wagons are spread in such an extensive area that it is easily washed out and broken down by natural processes.

 

[NoTrespassing]

<font color="blue"> I believe that arsenic slowly build up in the body until it reaches an 'effective' level.. and that is when you see the problems. That coupled with the fact that it is slow to leave the body is what eventually led most federal jobsites involving children.. ( playgrounds.. parks.. etc ) to go to the NON-cca lumber.. etc. </font>

This quote is directly from an EPA site.

http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/cca_transition.htm

<font color="red">"Although the Agency has not concluded that there is unreasonable risk to the public from these products, we do believe that any reduction in exposure to arsenic is desirable. This action comes years ahead of completing the Agency's regulatory and scientific assessment of CCA and will result in substantial reductions in potential exposure to CCA."</font>

Hmm....potential exposure that hasn't been proven. I realize that the removal of this chemical from residential use will be "voluntary" by producers or distributors but it seems to me that they have been <font color="red">pressured </font>into this action by the EPA.
They don't even recommend removing CCA treated wood from existing structures. If it's that dangerous why wouldn't they?

A more resonable approach in my opinion would be to make parents aware that there is "a potential danger" in some peoples opinions that hasn't been proven!

I think the gun was jumped on this one. I'm gettin real tired of BIG BROTHER watchin out for me.
low flush toilets
front load washers
warning upon warning everywhere we look.
Ever heard of the boy who cried wolf? Eventually these gov. warnings will be meaningless.

Auto manufactures are probably going to be forced to put new safety features on electric windows soon. How much will that cost me on the next vehicle I buy?

The quote that bothers me the most is this:
<font color="red"> the Agency believes that any reduction in the levels of potential exposure to arsenic is desirable </font>

Then why not remove existing CCA treated wood? Get rid of the deadly stuff!

This is a rediculous statement from an out of control agency.
It reminds me of this statement that I've heard from so many people. "If we can save just one child from harm all of our sacrifices will be worth it."

I'm gonna go dunk my head in a 5 gal. bucket of water. I've got one without a warning on it somewhere.

Kevin

 

[Junkman]

A few years ago, we were advised by the town that a U.S. Government Agency..... don't remember which one, was testing water wells in the town because they were "chasing" a vein of arsenic that runs from Maine through New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Connecticut, and I don't remember where it ends..... I never heard any more about the study or what the results were..... If one thing doesn't get you, another thing will......Living ultimately leads to the ultimate end...... death.... it is just when that end happens that is important... Hopefully it will be a long way off for all of us.... Evey day you live, you are a day closer to your death!!!! /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[Soundguy]

I just recently heard from a local contractor that the school board in our area is taking bids on applying sealer to all cca treated wood in the school system.. i.e., gym and playground areas.. so obviously they aren't running around ripping it up like it is radioactive ( probably couldn't afford it any way. ).

Gotta love those warnings and disclaimers. And it isn't just the epa... there are tons of 'protect you from yourself' legislation out there. Just look at your tractor.. every kind of warning label known to man.. My NH even has a warning about tripping when getting on the machine and stepping on a 'wet' step..

You will also find manufacturesrs . fearing crippling liability lawsuits, come up with many of these warnings, and also product safety commisisons like the UL mandate some warnings as well.

I guess it is the 'price we pay for where we live'...

Though I'm not the gratest fan of trading freedom for security, as in the end, you will have no freedom, and the gov't can't guarantee the security.. etc..

Soundguy

 

[zuiko]

A lot of the home centers dont carry CCA any more. 0.40 was the common retention, with 0.60 available special order.

Not sure if I trust the new stuff... I'm just assuming it doesnt work as well until I see otherwise. I'm not concerned about the CCA myself since I dont plan to eat it. You'd have to eat a lot of boardfeet to get poisoned.