Power Trac vs 4wd Tractor

Bob999 · May 5, 2006

How about when the engine stalls when you are mowinng up a steep slope... with your foot clamped down on the treadle, which elimintaes the hydraulic lock, my 422 has on a couple occasions immediately started drifting backward... not a good feeling, 

Good point! If the engine is not running, the hydraulic system is intact, and the treadle is in "neutral" there is substantial hydrostatic braking. The machine may drift down hill in such a situation but it will not, in my experience, run away. Nevertheless it can be quite uncomfortable and potentially dangerous if the machine is drifting down a steep slope and danger lurks at the bottom of the slope.

ontheweb · May 7, 2006

( How about when the engine stalls when you are mowinng up a steep slope... with your foot clamped down on the treadle, which elimintaes the hydraulic lock, my 422 has on a couple occasions immediately started drifting backward... not a good feeling, 

Good point! If the engine is not running, the hydraulic system is intact, and the treadle is in "neutral" there is substantial hydrostatic braking. The machine may drift down hill in such a situation but it will not, in my experience, run away. Nevertheless it can be quite uncomfortable and potentially dangerous if the machine is drifting down a steep slope and danger lurks at the bottom of the slope. )

Can you steer when the engine is dead like that?

Marks481 · May 7, 2006

no, you can't steer, since the steering on the PT comes from articulation driven by a hydraulic ram. No engine=no hydraulics=no steering.

Don't let this scare you off. I have had this happen maybe twice, both times mowing up a pretty steep slope, without the throttle wide open. It isn't like the tractor went running away on me... only drifted back a couple feet before I restarted the engine.

The mower deck puts a pretty significant draw on the engine, and without the throttle wide open, just didn't get enough oomph to make it. I have learned since then to keep the throttle wide open when mowing.

farm23 · May 8, 2006

Thanks to all. After looking over everything I am leaning to a 1430 and will look for a good used one to help offset the price difference.

One of the features of the 1430 is draft control. Does anyone know if the PT1430 draft control works the same as on a tractor? i.e. Does it have feedback to help keep a box blade engaged without hanging up and stalling the tractor?

Bob999 · May 9, 2006

Does it have feedback to help keep a box blade engaged without hanging up and stalling the tractor?


The draft control applies a controllable lifting force that shifts the weight of the attachment to the tractor. So far as I know there is no feed back system. Rather the system provides a nominally fixed amount of "lift" for any setting of the control.

toolz_not_toyz · May 9, 2006

I know I'm coming in here late but...I would go with the 1430. I find the 425 is too much of a lightweight and feels downright tippy sometimes. As others have mentioned, you need to be very careful when lifting loads high with regard to the articulation. It's VERY easy to accidentally start turning with a load up high...maybe because you want to dump that bucket of dirt OVER THERE instead of right here....and when you articulate, the CG changes dramatically and the PT will (WILL) begin to tip. Just lowering the arms will correct the situation.

As with operating any other heavy machinery, it's important to maintain your concentration and think before you do.

Today I was using the minihoe to dig a 2ft wide trench in clay and rock. The ground was not flat but not too much of a slope either. The PT was on an angle nonetheless. In this type of soil condition, while digging down with the minihoe you will often get into a situation where the bucket won't bite anymore and the PT will lift itself up. When you're on an angle to begin with it gets kind of freaky. What you don't want to do is accidentally lower the bucket even further instead of raising it.

The minihoe definitely takes getting used to. You can in no way be as efficient with it as you could with a real backhoe and part of the problem (a big part IMHO) is the lack of additional controls. You need to reach down to the aux lever in order to tilt the bucket itself. Also, because of that articulation/center of gravity problem, and the fact that you need to arcticulate to dump the bucket outside of your digging area....well, it's a compromise.

I also find the lack of real all wheel drive a bit of a drag. The PT could have way better traction if the wheel motors were all locked together. As it is, you end up with way too much wheel spin but that's also because of the weight (or lack of it).

Anyhow, those are my thoughts after 46.1 hours.

KentT · May 10, 2006

A couple of thoughts:

1. If you're going to be using the minihoe, grapple bucket or 6-way blade, you might want to seriously consider relocating the control for the Aux PTO. Here's how I did mine, but it also links to others ideas:

Click here.

Doing so will make you wonder why Tazewell didn't do it to begiin with...

2. If you're going to be working on slopes, you may want to reverse your wheels. At the risk of sounding like Fourteen, it makes a huge difference in the perceived stability. It may invalidate your warranty....

3. At least with lug/bar tires, I've found that spinning the wheels has decreased substantially with more experience on the PT. I now vgenerallly veiw spinning a tire as an indication of too much down-pressure....

Personally, I'lm not sure I'd trade the speed/mobility of the PT and minihoe for the increasded reach/depth of a normal backhoe for my needs.... If you're going to be sitting in one position working, the normal backhoe would be better. If you'll be maneuvering a lot, the minihoe is much faster to reposition.... There's pros and cons of each....

EDIT: Shortened long link.

toolz_not_toyz · May 10, 2006

(
1. If you're going to be using the minihoe, grapple bucket or 6-way blade, you might want to seriously consider relocating the control for the Aux PTO. )

Yes. This is something I was wondering about before I bought my PT. My wondering out loud is probably buried in a thread around here some place. I think your solution is a start. But it does force the operator to remove hands from the steering wheel. Which is not that great an option considering you need to turn in order to dump. What PT really should do is add another valve and another stick right next to the big one. That way you can keep your left hand on the steering wheel and perform ALL operations with the right. This is a mod that I may still pursue down the road.

(

2. If you're going to be working on slopes, you may want to reverse your wheels. At the risk of sounding like Fourteen, it makes a huge difference in the perceived stability. )

Is that really just perceived ?? I think a big part of the problem is the whole perception thing and some of us are better at it than others. But the PT pucker shure doesn't build confidence either does it? I think any type of digging exercise on a sloap is a tricky situation if you're trying to do it sideways. I mean, I would never do that.

(
3. At least with lug/bar tires, I've found that spinning the wheels has decreased substantially with more experience on the PT. )

I have the bar tires too. Yes, it gets better with practice but once you've mastered the black art of treadle management you're pretty much left with trying to do less in order to avoid wheel spin. You could say I've been doing plenty of ground engaging stuff around here. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have also found that wheel spin increases as the quantity of gas in the tank decreases. I really need the extra ballast. Keep the tank full and it makes a difference. That just tells me I really could use some system of adding weights.

The PT is definitely a diamond in the rough. There are plenty of places for improvement and build quality is rather disappointing. Not really sure if PT is even aware of the global competition thing. It wouldn't take much to build a much better PT. They are really useful machines though.

farm23 · May 10, 2006

I do not own a PT yet but am looking for a good used 1430. I wonder if some sort of ballast box could be used off the rear tow hitch and if it would be effective.

KentT · May 10, 2006

1. Even a traditional backhoe requires two hands to operate it -- and there's no steering wheel back there... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif If you put a switch on the existing joystick, you'd want it to be for an actual electrically controlled valve and not just a diverter valve. With a minihoe especially, you sometimes need to lift, curl and curl the bucket all at the same time -- you can't do that with a simple diverter valve...

2. It actually improves stability, but since I never actually got close to the limit (i.e. turning over) before widening the stance, I chose to use the word perceived. It greatly increases your confidence to work on slopes... Even with armrests down, seatbelt fastened snugly, and one hand on the ROPS upright, I think the "pucker factor" kicks in long before you're actually liable to turn over... And I don't mean the "PT pucker" of the tractor lifting a wheel -- I mean the human reaction of puckering up....

3. I've also loaded all four of my lug tires with WW solution and a sealant for loaded tires, so I seldom see wheel spin unless I've got too much down-pressure. I notice more of the engine bogging down because I have more traction than torque...

KentT · May 10, 2006

( I do not own a PT yet but am looking for a good used 1430. I wonder if some sort of ballast box could be used off the rear tow hitch and if it would be effective. )

BobRip has one (of sorts) that he made of wood for his PT-422, and I've got my friend trying to scrounge up the materials to weld one up for me...

I was running 40 lb wheelweights for a while on the rear until I reversed the wheels -- I'd now need MUCH longer bolts. Rather than remount them semi-permanently, I'd rather put them in a ballast box when I'm doing something that needs the extra ballast, but leave them off/out otherwise...

The extra weight made a noticeable difference -- and my lift arms would still not bypass. It would still lift the rear of the machine instead...

Spiffy · May 10, 2006

( I do not own a PT yet but am looking for a good used 1430. I wonder if some sort of ballast box could be used off the rear tow hitch and if it would be effective. )

I don't think you'll need the extra weight on the 1430 as much as the 4XX, but as KentT noted I'd think fluid would be the a good place to start adding weight.

My 2445 doesn't seem to traction issues due to have a lack of weight, but 1000lb of backhoe hanging off the rear end probably doesn't hurt! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

toolz_not_toyz · May 11, 2006

( 1. Even a traditional backhoe requires two hands to operate it -- and there's no steering wheel back there... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

Well, on the PT that's one hand on the steering and the other on the stick. On the backhoe that's both hands on the sticks.

( If you put a switch on the existing joystick, you'd want it to be for an actual electrically controlled valve and not just a diverter valve. With a minihoe especially, you sometimes need to lift, curl and curl the bucket all at the same time -- you can't do that with a simple diverter valve...)

I know I put a lot of thought into this several months ago. I'm sure it's somewhere here in this forum if I looked. But I was thinking of hooking up an electric diverter to the aux PTO. The diverter would simply switch from the quick attach valve to a new valve to which we connect a second stick positioned close to the current one. You would not have to disconnect the QA hoses then AND you would be able to control ALL of the minihoe functions with one hand provided the sticks are close enough together (that's the tricky part because of the way things are right now).

I was doing more work with the minihoe today. Digging in more rock hard clay. It would be very easy to tip the PT IMHO doing this type of work. Outriggers would help the stability issue I would be. The PT is so light that it's a piece of cake for the arms to lift the whole thing up. Unfortunately, with the mini hoe you have such a small surface are down there (side to side) that it creates a side to side pivot point.

KentT · May 11, 2006

( It would be very easy to tip the PT IMHO doing this type of work. Outriggers would help the stability issue I would be. The PT is so light that it's a piece of cake for the arms to lift the whole thing up. Unfortunately, with the mini hoe you have such a small surface are down there (side to side) that it creates a side to side pivot point.

)

Reversing my wheels widened the stance and decreased this tippiness, while loading all four tires added about 150 lbs of extra weight to hold the front down, in addition to about 150lbs on the rear...

That was my way of addressing those issues...

Personally I don't want outriggers -- then I couldn't articulate the machine to dump the bucket, nor could I rapidly reposition it to finetune the location of the bucket.... much less the ease of moving the machine completely....

I've haven't tried blocking/locking the machine to prevent oscillation... I don't yet have a feel for how well that might work.

Meanwhile, if I want to dig a big hole, sitting still, I'll rent (or hire) something better suited... as I envision it though, once I have have the septic system installed I won't have much need for that.... instead I'll be digging small shallow things like trenches, roadside drainage ditches, planting trees, grubbing brush and undergrowth, etc., where mobility is as important (if not more so) as lenght of the dipper stick,, i.e. reach...

Your needs and desires may be totally different....

RegL · May 11, 2006

" I was doing more work with the minihoe today. Digging in more rock hard clay. It would be very easy to tip the PT IMHO doing this type of work. Outriggers would help the stability issue I would be. The PT is so light that it's a piece of cake for the arms to lift the whole thing up. Unfortunately, with the mini hoe you have such a small surface are down there (side to side) that it creates a side to side pivot point. "

I think your leaving out the main force you need to use for hard digging with the minihoe, reverse treadle. Unlike a regular backhoe, if you try to dig with the loader down and curl you will pick up the front of the tractor. Your main digging force comes from tractor reverse and bucket curl.

Spiffy · May 11, 2006

I've never used a mini-hoe, but really see the treadle as the key to it's usefullness too, so I don't think outriggers would be desirable unless you're making something like JJ or MR where you might do deep work too. Of course if you don't have outriggers, then I really doubt you'd want oscillation lock.

Again this is coming from a guy whose never used the mini; however, you can't imagine the times I've been facing rearward and wishing I had the treadle, or have been reaching behind me to control the hoe while treadling and steering.

As far as the one handed theory, I know for the functions on my hoe, three directions often come into play at the same time, so I'd think it'd be a real learing curve and tough even then, but perhaps do-able on the mini-hoe - beats me though! /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

toolz_not_toyz · May 19, 2006

(
I think your leaving out the main force you need to use for hard digging with the minihoe, reverse treadle. ... Your main digging force comes from tractor reverse and bucket curl.
)

I agree that seems to be the best way to use the minihoe. The problem is that you still need to apply downward pressure as you're backing up...otherwise you're not really digging are you? All you have to do is hit a large rock and instead of the bucket going down, the PT will go up. But not straight straight up, it will tend to lean to one side or the other.

I wish I could explain the one-handed operation of two hydraulic levers at the same time. Everyone seems to be baffled. If it was 15 or so years ago I would have taken a photo while I still was driving high reach forklifts in a warehouse. You can spin those things into position while simultaneously raising the forks and/or leveling the forks and/or shifting the mast out. This type of functionality could be duplicated on a 425 by locating another stick very close to the existing one. The new stick would control bucket curl. And with one hand you'd be able to control the mini hoe completely.

toolz_not_toyz · May 19, 2006

(
I think your leaving out the main force you need to use for hard digging with the minihoe, reverse treadle. ... Your main digging force comes from tractor reverse and bucket curl.
)

I agree that seems to be the best way to use the minihoe. The problem is that you still need to apply downward pressure as you're backing up...otherwise you're not really digging are you? All you have to do is hit a large rock and instead of the bucket going down, the PT will go up. But not straight straight up, it will tend to lean to one side or the other.

I wish I could explain the one-handed operation of two hydraulic levers at the same time. Everyone seems to be baffled. If it was 15 or so years ago I would have taken a photo while I still was driving high reach forklifts in a warehouse. You can spin those things into position while simultaneously raising the forks and/or leveling the forks and/or shifting the mast out. This type of functionality could be duplicated on a 425 by locating another stick very close to the existing one. The new stick would control bucket curl. And with one hand you'd be able to control the mini hoe completely.

MossRoad · May 19, 2006

The thing I found about forklifts is the levers only move forwards and backwards. You could thumb, palm and pinky any of them pretty easily. The PT joystick also moves sideways. A lever located next to it would get bumped too easily. Sometimes it would be too far away to reach and sometimes you would pinch your fingers between the two. Unless the lever was mounted on the joystick so that it moved with the joystick and was always the same distance side to side from the joystick, I wouldn't care for it.

Several solutions come to mind.

1. Electric diverter valve(s) with button(s) on the joystick .
like these. With these you can momentarily change the function of the joystick to go from say, dump/curl to tumb open/close.

2. A second joystick to the left of the steering column. A full function, two valve joystick would be mighty handy.

3. Do the MCKAT modification pictured here. This is my favorite, all time PT mod. Simply elegant. Another picture with more details. Here is a link to his description of how he made and installed it.

I should do that to my machine.

MossRoad · May 19, 2006

The thing I found about forklifts is the levers only move forwards and backwards. You could thumb, palm and pinky any of them pretty easily. The PT joystick also moves sideways. A lever located next to it would get bumped too easily. Sometimes it would be too far away to reach and sometimes you would pinch your fingers between the two. Unless the lever was mounted on the joystick so that it moved with the joystick and was always the same distance side to side from the joystick, I wouldn't care for it.

Several solutions come to mind.

1. Electric diverter valve(s) with button(s) on the joystick .
like these. With these you can momentarily change the function of the joystick to go from say, dump/curl to tumb open/close.

2. A second joystick to the left of the steering column. A full function, two valve joystick would be mighty handy.

3. Do the MCKAT modification pictured here. This is my favorite, all time PT mod. Simply elegant. Another picture with more details. Here is a link to his description of how he made and installed it.

I should do that to my machine.