Plumbing Rant

[Dusty]

If you really want to get exotic, you can silver solder the joints. With the cost of copper piping today, the silver solder will look like a bargain. Dusty

 

[N80]

PVC was not an option for me. Even down here in SC it would be a freeze risk in a cabin that goes weeks without use and has no central heat or air.

What is a basin wrench? Is that a big wide wrench what you use to tighten the drain/strainer unit? Or is it like a long necked wrench that is bent at the end for tight places? If it is the latter, I'll buy one when I get the new supply line. I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time anyone will see my legs sticking out from under a sink or behind a toilet.

 

[escavader]

HI,thought id ad my 2 cents.
We built this house in 1991,Where the well pipe comes up ,it is copper,up to the holding tank,and to the first shutoff.The rest of the entire house is pvc.I have NEVER had a leak anywhere with the pvc.I have NEVER had a pvc shut off fail.The water shutoff to the hose has froze numerous times,because i forgot to drain it ,it has 3 ft of pvc running right down the outside wall.IT HAS NEVER BROKE OR FAILED IN ANY WAY.The washing machine feed line in the wall freezes every time it gets -15f In 15 years it has never broke either.
Just recently my water heater failed,and we decided to lift the new one up,so leaks could be detected easier.This involved re plumbing slightly.The pvc looked like the day i put it in inside.As i was filling the tank,i noticed a small drop of water on one of the original copper fittings [i hadnt disturbed this what so ever.I reached up and just touched it easily and it sprung a hole,in which had me running to shut off the pump.When i cut the pipe open to repair i couldnt believe how deteriorated the pipe was [everywhere ]inside
Even the original copper shutoff which never got used wouldnt work.
I changed it all to pvc.In my opinion,which is based on my experiences not a salesmans opinion.PVC is worth its weight in gold.Its easy to use,its inexspensive,IT WITHSTANDS FREEZING[iknow copper would have split],and it stands up to the test of time better than copper.I will always use pvc from this point on whenever i do water installs.Did i mention my wife has been managing ahardware store for22 years and she recommends it too.
ALAN

 

[N80]

Well, I've seen and repaired busted PVC from ice here in the southern US and in West Virginia where I did some volunteer work. I suspect anything will bust if it gets cold enough. There are claims that PEX can double its size before busting.

 

[BobRip]

My hot water healed failed last summer just prior to a three day trip out of town. My wife was a good sport and did without hot water for those three days. When I got back I installed the new one and she said listening to me express myself was worse that not having hot water. The new lead free solder gave me a fit since I have not used it in about 10 years. The first joint leaked and I had to disassemble it, go out side and do some practice joints. Oh well, it probably save a $1000 bucks and the new tank has 2.5 inches of foam insulation and is guaranteed for life. The elements are not, but they are pretty easy to replace.

 

[Ken_CT]

To the best of my knowledge, PVC is not approved anywhere for above ground pressure use for potable (drinking) water. CPVC (Chlorinated Polyvinyl chloride) is the approved material. I've heard of PVC being used for cold water in some areas, but never for hot. The 2003 International Plumbing Code book which is used in most states says only CPVC (of the two) for potable water.
There are different weights of copper tube. Many people buy type M for water lines, but this tube is too light weight especially for well water. It will eat through after many years. The proper weight should be type L. HD sells both, and many people save a couple of bucks by purchasing the M tube. But the savings aren't worth the trouble they will have in the future. Type M should only be used for heating, meaning the copper pipes that go to your radiators if you have a boiler, not for the hot water to the faucet. Type K is the heaviest, but is seldom used in residential plumbing because of its high cost.
AquaPex is very good stuff but the 25 year warranty is only good if it is installed by someone licensed by the manufacturer, besides having a plumbing license. Hope this makes helps.
Ken

 

[TwinWillows]

I also hate plumbing but have had to get good @ it (PVC/CPVC that is) after getting $ shock from a plumber I called out. Our new place is all cpvc so no sweating joints to mess with. Like others, I use the expensive molded cpvc/brass fittings when connecting to something threaded. they just seem to work better than the thrreaded plastic & I don't break them

 

[Westonium]

Poly and PEX are just as easy to use as PVC if not easier.
Copper is sturdy stuff, but it conducts heat A LOT better than PVC/PEX/PE/HDPE etc. I think it works better as a radiant pipe than PEX simply because you need way less of it and it simply performs better.

PVC can't be recycled.
PVC tends to get brittle the older it gets.

I've used a lot of PVC, and I've not had it fail much, but if you are in a situation with a lot of bends and lots of glued connections - each connection is a roll of the dice that it will come apart under stress (like the well pump runs a leetly too long one day or something).

Not all PVC is the same. SCH40, SCH80, or CPVC in my book. Using anything thinner is russian plumbing roulette.

My thoughts:
PEX for indoor plumbing on new construction so you can have a nifty "water breaker" box with a home run for every point of use.

POLY for really long supply line runs, sch80 for short runs, sch40 for very short runs.

Copper when you need very rigid pipe or high pressures/hammers/etc and make sure its sweated right.

No steel connected directly to copper. I HATE THAT. The copper dissolves rather quickly that way. grrrrr

Plastic pipes are not self-grounding and introducing them in a house that is otherwise copper might mean additional grounding is required for safe plumbing.

 

[randy41]

i dont think i understand the safe grounding of pipes thing you mention West.
why do you need to ground your pipes?

when i built this house i used copper for the supply lines and pvc for the drainage lines. the water comes from my well through a black plastic pipe into my basement. sweating copper is pretty easy once you get the hang of it. the most important part is cleaning the pipe and fitting. i had one supply leak after sweating many many many joints in this house and it was very easy to fix.

 

[kmdigital]

Or is it like a long necked wrench that is bent at the end for tight places? If it is the latter, I'll buy one when I get the new supply line. I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time anyone will see my legs sticking out from under a sink or behind a toilet.

Yep, that's a basin wrench. It's a lifesaver (or at least a knuckle saver) in tight spaces.

 

[turnkey4099]

I've used a lot of PVC, and I've not had it fail much, but if you are in a situation with a lot of bends and lots of glued connections - each connection is a roll of the dice that it will come apart under stress (like the well pump runs a leetly too long one day or something).

Not all PVC is the same. SCH40, SCH80, or CPVC in my book. Using anything thinner is russian plumbing roulette.

.

I have been using PVC/Cpvc since 1976 and only had one fitting seperate. Inspection showed poor glue job. Had another fail due to using a female threaded PVC to Iron fitting (separated on the part line). I recently had my pump act up as in being slow to kick in when it should. Traced it to a plugged up riser pipe to the pressure gauge the day I went to see why the pump wasn't running. By the time I got there, the pump had started, was still running and the pressure gauge was pegged at 100 psi. No leaks.

I also have several above ground PVC irrigation lines run. Some of the pipe has been recyled several times for different runs and have been in use since 1978. No breaks - brittle some of it? Yes indeedy.

Harry K

 

[turnkey4099]

PVC was not an option for me. Even down here in SC it would be a freeze risk in a cabin that goes weeks without use and has no central heat or air.

What is a basin wrench? Is that a big wide wrench what you use to tighten the drain/strainer unit? Or is it like a long necked wrench that is bent at the end for tight places? If it is the latter, I'll buy one when I get the new supply line. I'm pretty sure this won't be the last time anyone will see my legs sticking out from under a sink or behind a toilet.

Yes, the head works at right angles but it is a bit more involved. It has one fixed and one hinged jaw, plus the head is hinged so it can swing to one side or the other. Flopped on way it tightens, the other it loosens fittings. Ask at your local hardware store, plumbing supply or lumber yard. They don't cost much more than a standard wrench.

Harry K

 

[wjmst]

I have the PEX installed in my new home (July 2005). It is nice and easy to work with. I have the manifold installation for both hot and cold.

The only drawback is the fact that it takes a while for the water to get hot. The master bath is about a 40 foot run. It has two sinks. When the wife and I are getting ready in the morning she turns her hot water on to get the cool water out and the hot water flowing and I have to do the same thing, so it does "waste" water. It only takes about 10-15 seconds each, but it still is wasting water.

This can be a problem for us, especially in the summer, as we get our water from a spring and don't have much to waste during certain times of the year.

Wes

 

[randy41]

you need one of those point of use water heaters.

 

[Dusty]

I have the PEX installed in my new home (July 2005). It is nice and easy to work with. I have the manifold installation for both hot and cold.

The only drawback is the fact that it takes a while for the water to get hot. The master bath is about a 40 foot run. It has two sinks. When the wife and I are getting ready in the morning she turns her hot water on to get the cool water out and the hot water flowing and I have to do the same thing, so it does "waste" water. It only takes about 10-15 seconds each, but it still is wasting water.

This can be a problem for us, especially in the summer, as we get our water from a spring and don't have much to waste during certain times of the year.

Wes

If you can access the piping, you can put a tee into the line at the far end, and a temperature sensing pump at the other end and tie it back into the manifold to circulate the water that has cooled. I am assuming that there is room for an additional line on the manifold. This is routinely done on long runs of hot water lines in homes. I am in the process of doing this with the install of my new water heater. The pump is used to recirculate the water with in the water lines. Hot water enters the line in the normal way, and the cooled water is recirculated back to the water heater at the drain part of the tank.
Dusty

 

[kmdigital]

The only drawback is the fact that it takes a while for the water to get hot. The master bath is about a 40 foot run. It has two sinks. When the wife and I are getting ready in the morning she turns her hot water on to get the cool water out and the hot water flowing and I have to do the same thing, so it does "waste" water. It only takes about 10-15 seconds each, but it still is wasting water.

This can be a problem for us, especially in the summer, as we get our water from a spring and don't have much to waste during certain times of the year.

Wes

The best solution that doesn't require electricity to run a pump, and is also cheaper then a pump is a device from Nibco called JustRight. It won't work as well with a manifold system, because it will only circulate the water on one loop of the manifold, but it will work great at for that one loop. Essentially, it is a CPVC device that is installed at the water heater, and uses a combination of hotwater gravity circulation and the venturi principle to keep just enough hot water circulating through the pipes to keep hot water at the farthest point of the run it is installed in at all times.

You need to run length of PEX pipe back to the water heater from this long loop, and install the device on the cold side of the water heater. It is sold at Menards for about $65.00

 

[turnkey4099]

The problem with constant circulation to keept he water hot is that the cost of heating the cool water returning (and running a pump if needed) will exceed the cost of any wasted water. Convenience costs but in some cases it is worth it.

Harry K

 

[kmdigital]

The problem with constant circulation to keept he water hot is that the cost of heating the cool water returning (and running a pump if needed) will exceed the cost of any wasted water. Convenience costs but in some cases it is worth it.

Harry K

That may be true with a pump, but I doubt it with the gravity type system since it circulates very slowly. With a gravity system it is recommended to insulate the supply line, but not all the return line so that there is a slight temperature difference, which causes the circulation. If you are on a well and septic, sure it will cost more to circulate the water since your water is essentially free, but the cost of having hot water is very small and the convienance factor is large.

 

[N80]

See this thread about my latest adventure with copper:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/90731-plumbing-rant-part-ii.html#post1019036

But, I did finish the kitchen in my log cabin! Here is a pic. One toe board to paint and pulls for the drawers and doors and its done. I know it isn't much but I did it all myself. Made the counter tops out of cedar cut and sawn nearby. (I know it isn't perfect for counter tops but it will do. It will dent easily but its a hunting cabin and it will look right in place.) As you can see, my wife has been at work in there too and you can also see my tractor looking in the window wondering where I've been.

 

[EddieWalker]

Hey George,

One of these days I'll have a cabin. I just think it would be great to have a place to go to and even better if when you build it all yourself!!

One thing I'd try and do is vent your stove. Put a short cabinet above the stove and an inexpensive range hood under it. Then run a 4 or 6 inch flexible line out the side of the wall above the cabinet to the right and paint it blue to match the wall.

I've tried those ventless grills and they don't do anything. You really need one that sucks up the cooking smoke, steam and smells and send the out the door.

Thanks for sharing,
Eddie