plumbing 4 air ?

/ plumbing 4 air ? #81  
patrick_g said:
Ray, I will be considering replaceable desiccant (filter? dryer?) as substitute for the mechanical compressor chiller thing. I may not do enough water vapor critical air consumption to warrant the mech unit.

Pat

The desiccant dryer is a fine piece of equipment. I would recommend it for low volume or occasional use. However, if you end up using it a lot, you could spend more time and money fooling around with desiccant, than it would take to buy the refrigerated dryer, (i.e. harbor freight now has a $300 unit).

While desiccant does dry the air, (studies show better than a refrigerated dryer), it also adds a certain amount of fine dust, which is only a problem if you paint. This dust can accumulate in the dryer after several desiccant changes. Many shops that use a desiccant dryer have not figured this out. Taking a minute to blow the chamber out with an air hose, before adding the new desiccant will all but eliminate this problem.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #82  
Ray, I think I am tracking closely with you. I have to study a bit to decide whether or not to get a mechanical compressor type dryer. I would not put the desiccant in the main line but where it is critically needed and I could put a filter down stream of it so dust is not a problem. I will have some dual outlets with one side oiled and one side dry.

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #83  
I have been following this thread for awhile now, and maybe I can add some info. I知 retired now, but around 20 years ago I worked with compressed air system for many applications, from basic shop air to critical applications. As far as materials for most applications, iron pipe or copper is probably your best bet. I wouldn稚 use type M, but it is acceptable. Copper is of course easier to use, but it痴 getting expensive. Black iron is cheaper but requires more specialized equipment. On an overhead trunk the trunk line needs to be of sufficient size and the drops should always come from the top of the trunk. There needs to be dedicated drains coming off the bottom of the trunk at the end and at strategic locations. If it is feasible the trunk should have a slight pitch away from the compressor. The reason installers sometimes lay tees on their side is simply to save time & material. It saves some fittings & valves and there is no need for dedicated drains on the trunk, as the branches are the drains. You wouldn稚 take a supply line from the bottom of a storage tank, would you? Well the trunk line acts as a storage tank too. The dedicated drains from the bottom or end of the trunk should be at least ス inch all the way down to the full size valve. You can add a short piece of ス air hose for convenience. Where the supply drop comes down the wall, I usually put in a cross tee where the outlets go and extend the drip leg about a foot, with a petcock installed into a reducing coupling, do not use a bushing as it will clog in time. Make sure the line is very securely anchored to the wall as this is where all the stress from attaching and detaching the airlines from the chuck is. With a cross tee, you have 2 outlets that can be configured for different uses, for example one line for an air gun the other to a filter lubricator set for air tools. The air must be at the best quality at the point of use. This is where you install the air filters. If a set of filters is installed, I would have unions on both ends of the series, and install the unions so the setup can only be re-installed in one direction. Filters come in different micron & flow ratings. The most common are particulate filters that remove bulk water and particulate contamination, Coalescing filters remove oil aerosols from the air for painting applications, lubricators are used for air tools, and actually add oil to the line, and of course regulators. (A note of caution, if an air hose has been attached to a lubricator never use that air hose for painting.) These units can come in combination packages. There is no one size fits all. Except in critical areas the dryer is usually at the compressor. Liquid separators will take water out of the air, but you need a dryer to lower the dew point of the air. Most people, especially home users don稚 really need a dryer, of course this varies by what is being done with the air, your climate, and other variables. There are many different types of dryers, the best, in my opinion, are regenerative twin towers, but it is very unlikely anyone here needs a -40 or lower pressure dew point. These are big money items and are way overkill for most systems. Refrigerated dryers work well, and bring the dewpoint to about 40 F. which is fine for most applications. Desiccant dryers are relatively inexpensive, but the media has a short life and they also should have an afterfilter and moisture indicator installed. Air dryers come in so many varieties, there is no way to talk about them all here, but Wilkersoncorp.com gives some excellent description of types & uses. Also be aware that there are pressure drops across the system, so if the compressor is putting out 100 psi, that is not always what you get at the tool. It is a good idea to have a pressure regulator w/gauge at the point of use for applications that have a specific pressure requirement. Many filters have polycarbonate bowls which can be affected by some oils, so if you have a polycarbonate bowl make sure it has a safety protective cover on it. I once had one explode right next to me for no apparent reason. It sounded like a gun shot. Fortunately the cover prevented the bowl from being shrapnel. Whew, that was a lot of typing.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #84  
Ken_CT said:
Whew, that was a lot of typing.

Ken, that was really good stuff. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I am experiencing some difficulty with some of your post...

This is what I got when you were telling us about a pipe size... "least ス inch." I don't know if anyone else had a problem with stuff or if it is just my problem.
Another example: "I知 retired now, but around " I think you probably said "I'm" but I got "I知"

Hopefully my examples are not "retranslated" so they look normal again, leaving me talking about differences no one else can see.

Anyway, thanks for doing the typing, I can't be the only one to profit from it. I wish I could have you around for a couple days, I'd increase my practical understanding of air systems by a factor of 10 at least.

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #85  
patrick_g said:
This is what I got when you were telling us about a pipe size... "least ス inch." I don't know if anyone else had a problem with stuff or if it is just my problem.
Another example: "I知 retired now, but around " I think you probably said "I'm" but I got "I知"
Pat


Hi Pat,
I don't know what causes that, but yeah I am retired, and it was supposed to say one half inch. I guess when I use certain symbols or puctuation marks it doesn't translate correctly. One thing I forgot to mention if your running black pipe. Instead of using a coupling use a tee with a plug in the branch. You can use a tee with a plug in place of an elbow also, if you forsee adding additional runs in the future. A couple of years down the road when you add something new to you shop you'll be glad you did.

Ken
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #86  
Ken, Now that is using your head for something besides a hat rack! For a few cents per fitting you can build in easy expansion.

I'm in the design process of installing a dust collection system. The company selling me the pieces is doing a design and want to know, of course, where my various machines are located. I, on the other hand, have virtually everything in the shop on wheels, even a 4x8 foot work bench with storage below is on 6 big HF casters. See the basic conflict? I am ordering in more "Y" fittings than needed to install in straight runs (with one opening capped) so the system can be reconfigured relatively easily.

I want to install my large upright compressor (still unused on the pallet) on the other side of the wall from the shop (in the garage) for noise and floor space considerations and then plumb air all around the shop inside and out plus in the garage for convenience. I have about 1900 sq ft or so of shop on the ground floor and about 600 sq ft on the second floor (half of which is my wifes "dirty projects" room.)

Until or unless someone "sets me straight" (hint hint) I assume I will use some sort of "star" configuration with 4-5 trunks fanning out along the ceiling (10 ft downstairs) and branch lines to all areas, just scattering drops around like electrical outlets with no particular preplanning since the shop is so reconfigurable.

Here is where your suggestion to use "T" fittings in place of couplings and "L" fittings will be taken seriously to maintain flexibility and reconfigurability.

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #87  
Hello all,

I had black iron pipe in my shop for years. The darn stuff rusts
like crazy. After having to replace two regulator/filter units and
some other small stuff, I re-piped with inch and a half copper.

It's a little pricey, but the benefits outweigh the expense. It helps
in getting moisture out of the air, and the larger size also acts as
a reservoir. It was also very easy to install.

I run a 110 lb power hammer, a sandblasting cabinet and other
pneumatic tools with this set-up and couldn't be more pleased.
The rust from the previous piping would have easily damaged the
filters and controls.

I wouldn't even consider using plastic pipe for any reason. The
shattering potential is just to great to ignore.

Hope my $.02 can help someone out.

Bill
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #88  
Ken in CT had some really good points and they made me remember one tip encorporated into my shop system.

It uses Type M quick couplers for the air tools and Type L for the paint / sandblast side. No way you can accidentally contam the paint hose with oil.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #89  
John, That might fool proof the air so that even I couldn't mess it up and plug in the wrong hose.

Pardon my ignorance but...
Does it make a difference which of the typical material air hoses are made of when using an oiler to put oil in the line for air tools? I have been just adding oil to the tools and want to get a bit more sophisticated but don't want to have a hose eaten up due to ignorance.

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #90  
I would not worry about having air lines with oil already in them unless the line is dedicated to a particular tool or machine. Some people worry and way too much about this. All you have to do is occasionally put a couple of drops of oil in the tool, thats it. No big deal.
In the Body Shop, I hardly ever oiled my tools because of concern about oil being sprayed out of the tools on the jobs. They were used very hard, and lasted as long as anyone else's tools, some are older than some of you. Yes its important, however you don't need to wake and sit up in bed in the middle of the night worrying, because you forgot to oil one of your tools. Most of them, (unless they are el cheapo's), will probably out last you.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #91  
Ray, my concern is putting oil into a hose and having the oil deteriorate the hose because I don't know which kind of hose to use to be oil resistant. I have plastic and rubber hoses.

I sure don't lose sleep about most of my air powered wood working tools since they are HF except for a really nice Senco finish nailer. With my HF air powered nailer/staplers I have so little invested for so much productivity I already feel like a bandit. I am also pretty fast taking them apart to clear the occasional jam.

My air ratchets, impacts, and such were bought before I was introduced to HF but are Taiwan and China origin anyway and work good enough for me. I do tend to oil these copiously and after 10-15 years they still work fine.

Oh, and by the way... I don't think any tools you bought new are older than me. I understand your sentiment though. I have told some of my sub's workers I am wearing boots older than they are (I was.) This was in response to an "old timer" with 5 years experience ragging on a new guy with only a few months experience.

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #92  
Pat

I think any hose sold commercially for compressed air use will be ok. I used to use a lot of Parker 801 Push-Lok which was a general purpose air hose. It was a synthetic rubber hose with excellent characteristics, very supple, 200 psi working, oil resistant. That was an industrial grade hose, and unless you want to go to an industrial supply house and spend a lot of money the only way you will be able to find info on a specific hose will be to contact the manufacturer. Unfortunately you may have to learn to speak Chinese.:D



Ken
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #93  
Ken, Thanks for your thoughts. My plastic hoses are about 10 years old and are marked oil resistant. I'm not sure the rubber ones are marked.

Chinese is a bugger but we may need to get around to it. I'm still working on Hindi and Tagalog so I can make sense out of outsourced customer service for Microsoft, Cisco Systems, and the other profiteering computer related companies.

Actually, I was once offered, encouraged, and cajoled toward an all expenses paid plus salary trip through Harvard Language School to study Chinese but I had a contract that permitted me to turn it down. This was when I was in the USAF during the little fracas known as Viet Nam. I couldn't think of any good reason for me to want to do whatever the USAF would have me do after training me in Chinese so I ended up as an instrument flying instructor on a flt sim in Minot, North Dakota (as bad or worse.)

Pat
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #94  
Ive used 1/2" PVC in my shop for the past 8 years with no incident. (the 1/2 having rated to 500psi stamped on the outside makes me not worry about it)

1/2" PVC has been installed in my dads shop for the past 15 years, no incidents.

we both run single stage 120psi compressors.

When i plumb the new barn it will be in a mix of PVC and black pipe.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #95  
schmism said:
Ive used 1/2" PVC in my shop for the past 8 years with no incident. (the 1/2 having rated to 500psi stamped on the outside makes me not worry about it)

1/2" PVC has been installed in my dads shop for the past 15 years, no incidents.

we both run single stage 120psi compressors.

When i plumb the new barn it will be in a mix of PVC and black pipe.


PVC can work for air. The psi. rating is not the problem. PVC is not able to handle the vibration, temperature, chemicals, and occasional shock from pulling, tripping on hoses.

Unlike global warming, the debate on PVC air lines is over.
It is not legal for air for a reason. Many accidents have happened.
A track record of success by some, will never change that.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #96  
ray66v said:
PVC can work for air. The psi. rating is not the problem. PVC is not able to handle the vibration, temperature, chemicals, and occasional shock from pulling, tripping on hoses.

Unlike global warming, the debate on PVC air lines is over.
It is not legal for air for a reason. Many accidents have happened.
A track record of success by some, will never change that.

Ray, If a guy says, "I intend to live forever and so far so good", what can you possibly do with logic or common sense to persuade him of a different outcome.

You don't necessarily get killed the first few times you walk across the street without looking in either direction, thus proving it is a safe and advisable activity no matter what the insurance statistics may say.

Who was it that said, "Common sense is an uncommon commodity?"

Pat ;) ;)
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #97  
"You don't necessarily get killed the first few times you walk across the street without looking in either direction, thus proving it is a safe and advisable activity no matter what the insurance statistics may say."

I like that one.:)
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #98  
Another plumbing tip. My brother and I replumbed some things on my tank a few weeks ago. No pipe on mine at all, just enough for a ball valve, gauge and hose. We also removed the petcock and put in a tank drain just like road tractors use. It has a little cable (custom cut length) crimped on to the valve. Just about every time I am in the barn I give it a yank and release whatever moiture is in the bottom of the tank. This way I don't have to get dirty crawling around, fumbling for the petcock and trying to remember which way to turn the dadgum thing.
 
/ plumbing 4 air ? #100  
Clearly you have taken some actions to correct some of the short comings of
PVC pipe. Many users have not. And still believe there is no problem.

schmism said:
thats why i plumb all my "drops" in black pipe. last 3-6' the hose is connected to.

This is what I recommend, plus a vibration isolator, (hose), at the compressor with some schedule 80 plastic fittings, for anyone who insists on using PVC. That seems to mitigate the problems with the common failure points.

schmism said:
Ive never found operating temps above the 140deg f its rated for.

The temps at the connection to the compressor, in some installations can exceed 140f. (i.e. hot air coming from a hot tank). Add to that, the vibration, and in some extreme cases, even pulling from a compressor as it attempts to move to a different position, and eventually the connection fails. (In a very loud way).
 

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