plumbing 4 air ?

[Bird]

work-arounds of automated phone systems

For a few years, I refused to do business with any company that had an answering machine instead of a human to answer the phone. But of course now you almost can't find a company with which you don't have to play telephone roulette.

 

[ray66v]

Are there any specific length limitations to consider when running compressed air? I'm going to be trenching for utilities out to my barn and am thinking about tossing something (apparently not pvc, lol) in there for an air supply back to the house/garage (probably with a reserve tank at the house too). The run is going to be about 150'.

Copper might be the best bet ($$$) for this application b/c of corrosion? I suppose i could put it all in 4' conduit but that would get expensive too.

No limit on length! Thats the beauty of compressed air. You do have to use a sizing chart to allow for volume.
I am not sure what I would use for an underground air line. 3/4" Water service pipe is rated for 300psi, and not terribly expensive. However I do not know if it is going to work well. The big problem with underground air lines is having a way to drain the condensation. This is a problem that should be addressed.

 

[firemanpat2910]

Sugarmaple, Good comments. I intend to put my vertical compressor on the other side of a wall from the shop. Hadn't really thought about containment for a potential tank failure.

A sheet of fairly thin sheet metal(not too thin, at least 20 ga but 18 is better) laminated between the sheetrock and a piece of OSB or ply will stop some very energetic debris. I will put it on the "other" side of the wall, not in the shop.

You should fasten the laminations to the studs in the wall. You don't have to do a large area. I intend to do a 4x8 which will cover the "angles of interest." Any debris thrown in other directions will not be likely to encounter people, just things, insured things.

Pat

put it inside and use it as a back splash for your welding and grinding tables.

 

[wa9w00d]

If you're like me, you really HATE to hear your compressor kick on at 3am because you forgot to turn it off when you closed up the shop.
I eliminated this possibility by using a contactor controlled by a simple timer switch.
Contactors are a little pricey, but your not supposed to be using that breaker for an on/off switch anyway.
I have a divided pole barn with the compressor on a footing in the dirt half. I wish I had used some kind of rubber isolation now.
The divider wall cuts out some sound, and I kinda got used to the sound of a B-29 landing on my head.
Wayne

 

[Kays Supply]

Double check the pressure ratings on the PEX. Temperature affects the rating. Compressed air can get warm. Some copper close to the compressor might help waste the heat.

 

[jcims]

No limit on length! Thats the beauty of compressed air. You do have to use a sizing chart to allow for volume.
I am not sure what I would use for an underground air line. 3/4" Water service pipe is rated for 300psi, and not terribly expensive. However I do not know if it is going to work well. The big problem with underground air lines is having a way to drain the condensation. This is a problem that should be addressed.

Condensation is going to be a problem because there is a small valley between the two buildings. The one thing that might help is having the reservoir tanks on both ends to reduce the rapid pressure drops in the line itself (which i believe is responsible for most condensation). Probably put desiccant filters on each end, too.

Thanks for the tip on water service pipe, i hadn't thought of anything like that...

 

[ray66v]

Temperature drop, seems to me, to be the primary cause of condensation in the lines. Using a desiccant, or refrigerated dryer before the underground leg would be a great way to fix the problem.
Harbor Freight has a refrigerated dryer now that sells for $300 (cheap).

 

[IXLR8]

I was wondering if anyone else tried to get info on the plastic pipe for compressed air. Pat

Pat, I understand your frustrations about trying to get info to buy a companies product. Looks like if you wanted to register on their web site you could have gotten lots more info. I don't want to have to register with somebody to get information from them... so I called up my friend 'Google' and this is what I found.

These look to be the same basic product, same ratings.

Mr. PEX (PEX-AL-PEX) Pex Tubing - PEX-al-PEX Tubing - PEX-al-PEX - Mr. PEX
MultiCor - Multicor (PEX-AL-PEX) Pex Tubing - Wirsbo Multicor PEX-al-PEX - Wirsbo PEX-AL-PEX


HTH

 

[Bill Barrett]

Didn't read everything so forgive me if I double up.
Copper is great, used by manufacturers in air dryers. Type M is fine.
Something was said about compatibility of plastic and oil is very true, also did you know you can have flash fires in air lines? It's a pressure temperature oil mixture thing, I've seen carbon residue from flash fires in industrial systems Not a good thing with plastic!
I checked into plastic pipe and fittings rated for air, very expensive, you could pipe with anything cheaper.
I've used black pipe for years, up to 4" never any problem, except rust if you have a lot of condensation .
My new shop will be copper.
Also check these membrane dryers out, nobody I've talked to have heard of them. I've been using them for years, like lab quality air, very pricy though.
Desiccant & Membrane Dryers - HMD Series

 

[patrick_g]

Pat, I understand your frustrations about trying to get info to buy a companies product. Looks like if you wanted to register on their web site you could have gotten lots more info. I don't want to have to register with somebody to get information from them... so I called up my friend 'Google' and this is what I found.

These look to be the same basic product, same ratings.

Mr. PEX (PEX-AL-PEX) Pex Tubing - PEX-al-PEX Tubing - PEX-al-PEX - Mr. PEX
MultiCor - Multicor (PEX-AL-PEX) Pex Tubing - Wirsbo Multicor PEX-al-PEX - Wirsbo PEX-AL-PEX


HTH

Jim, I did register and got what I could but not satisfied.

Thank you for great links. I did not know Wirsbo did PEX-AL-PEX but then a couple days ago I didn't know anyone did plastic-Al-plastic of any type. I ran into Wirsbo in hydronic applications.

I will have to get some prices on copper to compare to the layered Wirsbo product but if the layered stuff is not too much more I might like it better. I can put a filter on the output of the compressor to keep oil out. Not sure what long term contact of oil on PEX is.

Pat

 

[IXLR8]

I did a few quick calculations on the cost of plumbing compressed air around my garage. All pipe sizes are 3/4".

Copper Type M- $525.00
Copper Type L- $735.00--- Don't think so
Black Iron- $312.00--- Looking like a possiblity- Just going to need dryer/filters.

HomeDepot Pex- $117.00--- Not sure if the pressue rating is good enough to even consider, I suspect not.

Air service rated PEX- that is layered; PEX-Alum-PEX--- Although I wish it had a higher pressure rating for a safety factor.

Mr Pex $259.00--- Another possiblity, much easier/quicker to install than Black Iron
Uponor Mulit-cor $355.00--- I know this is a high quality tubing.. might consider if I could get it cheaper.

 

[patrick_g]

I did a few quick calculations on the cost of plumbing compressed air around my garage. All pipe sizes are 3/4".

Copper Type M- $525.00
Copper Type L- $735.00--- Don't think so
Black Iron- $312.00--- Looking like a possiblity- Just going to need dryer/filters.

HomeDepot Pex- $117.00--- Not sure if the pressue rating is good enough to even consider, I suspect not.

Air service rated PEX- that is layered; PEX-Alum-PEX--- Although I wish it had a higher pressure rating for a safety factor.

Mr Pex $259.00--- Another possiblity, much easier/quicker to install than Black Iron
Uponor Mulit-cor $355.00--- I know this is a high quality tubing.. might consider if I could get it cheaper.

Good info, IXLR8. I assume this is just for the material to make the distance needed. The devil may be in the details when the cost of fittings is added in. If fitting costs track the costs of the tubing runs (no real reason to assume they will) you have found some good candidate solutions. With an oil type compressor that gives some aditional factors to consider. I have never read anything about oil and PEX.

If any of the decently priced multi-layer plastic options are happy with oil and the fittings aren't a budget buster then I will likely go with one of those instead of rust breeding iron. Otherwise it is iron for me and some filters. Gee, needing a filter at each drop could run the price-convenience consideration up to the point were a non iron solution is the best deal.

Pat

 

[Kays Supply]

FYI Before I started installing PEX for home plumbing I did a lot of research. The Box Store PEX I looked at either wasn't labled for origin or said Made in China. I couldn't find any ASTM numbers either. I would be very careful using this pipe for a borderline maximum pressure. I had forgotten about the AL layered pipe. That would be very interesting to check out. It would also install much more professional looking where exposed to view. FYI also, Nibco is one of the brands of PEX that is manufactured with a process that lets it stay staighter when installed. They also have brass and copper fittings and SS rings. When completed the connection looks like a hydraulic fitting. Very strong also. Most of the other brands tend to roll back up and get curly when pulled out in a straight run.

 

[IXLR8]

I have never read anything about oil and PEX.

Pat

Neither have I. Now that I think of it... I had a contact at Wirsbo (before Uponor bought them), I will see if they are still there and see what, if anything, they have to say about oil and PEX. The web site I posted should have fittings for the PEX, you could get rough costs there. HomeDepot has PEX fittings, with either copper or Stainless steel rings to clamp the tubing in place. The only issue, the crimping tool is about $140.00, I believe. One of the pluses, if I had all the parts I needed, I could plumb up my 30'x32' garage, with 6 drops, in less than 2 hrs, no way I could do that with iron or copper pipe, it would be more like 2 days.
"Kays Supply" is correct, the tubing does tend to curl and not want to lay out straight. Might have something to do with the fact they put it on the roll while it is still warm, at least Wirsbo does. Another thing to be aware of... if you put a kink in PEX, you very much weaken it, to the point it would be unsafe to use. Althought surprizingly, you can repair the kinked area back to full strength!!
I am going to get a crimping tool anyway as I am putting radiant heating in my house and I will need them for that.

 

[Bill Barrett]

I did a few quick calculations on the cost of plumbing compressed air around my garage. All pipe sizes are 3/4".

Copper Type M- $525.00
Copper Type L- $735.00--- Don't think so
Black Iron- $312.00--- Looking like a possiblity- Just going to need dryer/filters.

HomeDepot Pex- $117.00--- Not sure if the pressue rating is good enough to even consider, I suspect not.

Air service rated PEX- that is layered; PEX-Alum-PEX--- Although I wish it had a higher pressure rating for a safety factor.

Mr Pex $259.00--- Another possiblity, much easier/quicker to install than Black Iron
Uponor Mulit-cor $355.00--- I know this is a high quality tubing.. might consider if I could get it cheaper.

Where did you find air rated pex, or pex-al-pex?

 

[patrick_g]

Jim, One of our closer suppliers has PEX both in rolls and in straight lengths (they call it semi-rigid I think.)

When I bought my first crimp tool for PEX I didn't know much except I could buy the same tool at Lowes for $60 less than at Locke's Supply (the above referenced PEX supplier.) Unfortunately my big money saving move was not well founded. There are multiple kinds of PEX crimping tools. The first one I got fits only one size of tubing and fittings. It uses crimp on rings that look like wedding bands, completely radially symmetrical. The tools, even at Lowe's, aren't cheap.

Another style of crimp ring and crimping tool lets the same tool crimp 3 (I think) sizes. I'm sure it does 3/4 and 1/2. The crimp rings for it have a couple ears sticking out that engage the tool. Far better to get the type that lets one tool crimp more than one size. This is the type my plumber uses. Why they don't make interchangeable dies for a nice certi-crimp style set of handles is beyond me. My HVAC guys also use PEX for hydronics and both them and the plumbers claim that they have never had a leak with a properly crimped connection. They say if it looks right it doesn't leak. Any that have leaked, when inspected were obviously not done right and should have never been left that way. (Hard to get good help.)

Pat

 

[IXLR8]

Where did you find air rated pex, or pex-al-pex?

look in post #48 of this thread. These have the same ratings as the supplier listed in post #25 of this thread.

 

[dbdartman]

Forgive the off-topic, I'll only be a moment...

Pat, I DID save that page I posted about the other day, & just found it!

gethuman

Carry on!

 

[Red55]

Thanks Dartman just added the site to my "favorites" list -Ed

 

[Treemonkey1000]

Proabably a dumb question. Can you rent the Pex Crimpers? There is a shop here in town that will go out and purchase a tool if there is enough request for it. For them to spend $140 to buy it then rent it seems like a good business case.
Jim