Particulate filter delete

[3930dave]

Particulate emissions from diesel engines: correlation between engine technology and emissions | Journal of Occupational Medicine and Toxicology | Full Text

I'm not a Roll Coal guy.

That said, what I'm watching for is further medical data on where we are at now. Emissions are down, but what is emitted now is very fine scale. The point has be raised that these finer particles are capable of penetrating even deeper into lung geometry.

Sometimes when you go to fix something, you end up with unintended consequences....... watching, because those who create The Solution, are often slow to acknowledge the New Problem.....

Rgds, D.

 

[rScotty]

Particulate emissions from diesel engines: correlation between engine technology and emissions | Journal of Occupational Medicine and Toxicology | Full Text

I'm not a Roll Coal guy.

That said, what I'm watching for is further medical data on where we are at now. Emissions are down, but what is emitted now is very fine scale. The point has be raised that these finer particles are capable of penetrating even deeper into lung geometry.

Sometimes when you go to fix something, you end up with unintended consequences....... watching, because those who create The Solution, are often slow to acknowledge the New Problem.....

Rgds, D.

Great article! And exactly what we have been talking about on this TBN thread. Thanks you for posting that link.

That article makes good reading & good points about the chemistry of the pollution control compromises, and shows areas open to political manipulation without specifically incriminating anyone on either side...... Although the way the EGR valve solution is explained does come close. (EGR valves diminish NOX but are allowed to cause additional Soot)

Pollution may be a global problem, but that doesn't mean that the regulations are accomplishing anything. Too many "solutions" seem more political than helpful. It's a tangle, and lawmakers seem to lack the education to protect them from bias & lobbyists. Or maybe they lack the spine.....but there's no reason us diesel owners can't get united on this.
rScotty

 

[Snobdds]

I see there is some confusion here.

There are two things the EPA focus on, Nitrous oxide and particulate matter (soot). A diesel runs on 3 things; fuel, air, and compression. There is a direct relationship between the two variables the EPA focus on and it is such that if you decrease one you have more of the other and vice versa. So if you lean out the fuel you decrease the particulate matter but then you have high nirous oxide levels. The opposite is also true, if you run the fuel rich then you have low Nitrous oxide but high particulate matter. The secret is to balance the two %.

An EGR system only deals with nitrous oxide levels as it reintroduces an inert gas that has already been used and the oxygen gone.
An DPF system only deals with particulate matter and it traps it in the DPF and uses UREA to burn off the matter once it reaches a certain flow restriction.
An SCR only deals with nitrous oxide and has been developed to convert the nitrogenous oxide into Co2, which does not hurt the Ozone.

There is nothing to decrease the emissions of Co2 in EPA regulation. The current tier 4 rules basically remove 95% of both variables, tier 5 is going after the last 5% but it means it the costliest and hardest to accomplish. Not needed in my opinion.

Modern computer controlled diesels run at proper fuel air ratio's and at proper combustion temperatures to burn all the fuel completely. Common rail and pilot injection and the combination of the two really does mean the diesel engine is running clean and efficient. I delete any diesel I have as my state does not do emission testing. I'm also running at 6,000+ feet in elevation and emissions just bog me down, since the engine is basically an air pump. Your milage may vary...

Emissions on a tractor is a mistake. A tractor might burn between 5 and 10 gallon a day, compare that with an over the road tractor that might burn 50-75 gallons a day. The cost benefit of emissions on a small tractor is not as favorable as on a big over the road truck because the fuel inputs are drastically different. Emissions add a complexity that takes a simple machine and turns it into a something requiring sophistication to fix. However we can't go back in time and emissions are here to stay, the option should be there if an owner wants emission free equipment.

 

[ning]

Particulate emissions from diesel engines: correlation between engine technology and emissions | Journal of Occupational Medicine and Toxicology | Full Text

I'm not a Roll Coal guy.

That said, what I'm watching for is further medical data on where we are at now. Emissions are down, but what is emitted now is very fine scale. The point has be raised that these finer particles are capable of penetrating even deeper into lung geometry.

Sometimes when you go to fix something, you end up with unintended consequences....... watching, because those who create The Solution, are often slow to acknowledge the New Problem.....

Rgds, D.

I'd be surprised if there 2.5u particulates have increased with the newer regulations. I'm sure that their proportion of the emissions have gone up, but that would be because there's so much less being emitted.

 

[Jstpssng]

Good discussion going on here. :thumbsup:

 

[Rmart30]

Emissions on a tractor is a mistake. A tractor might burn between 5 and 10 gallon a day, compare that with an over the road tractor that might burn 50-75 gallons a day. The cost benefit of emissions on a small tractor is not as favorable as on a big over the road truck because the fuel inputs are drastically different. .

Tractors, lawnmowers, gensets etc should have been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down on the list of something that needed tier 4 emissions. Ive stated before that one jet liner in one trip coast to coast will put out more emissions than my tractor and lawnmower and pick up, and car combined will in a lifetimes of use by me.
Same with locomotives, tug boats, cruise ships etc.
What they should have done is started with the highest polluting things and trickled down from there to the smaller stuff in the following years. John Q Homeowners DPF equipped 35 hp tractor who might put 20 hours a year on it is making ZERO environmental difference in the over all picture.

 

[Oldoak]

Tractors, lawnmowers, gensets etc should have been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down on the list of something that needed tier 4 emissions. Ive stated before that one jet liner in one trip coast to coast will put out more emissions than my tractor and lawnmower and pick up, and car combined will in a lifetimes of use by me.
Same with locomotives, tug boats, cruise ships etc.
What they should have done is started with the highest polluting things and trickled down from there to the smaller stuff in the following years. John Q Homeowners DPF equipped 35 hp tractor who might put 20 hours a year on it is making ZERO environmental difference in the over all picture.

But, but, that makes too much sense. The government would never think of starting there.

 

[finn1]

Tractors, lawnmowers, gensets etc should have been wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down on the list of something that needed tier 4 emissions. Ive stated before that one jet liner in one trip coast to coast will put out more emissions than my tractor and lawnmower and pick up, and car combined will in a lifetimes of use by me.
Same with locomotives, tug boats, cruise ships etc.
What they should have done is started with the highest polluting things and trickled down from there to the smaller stuff in the following years. John Q Homeowners DPF equipped 35 hp tractor who might put 20 hours a year on it is making ZERO environmental difference in the over all picture.

They did exactly what you propose: cars were the first to be regulated, followed by Diesel trucks, followed by off highway equipment.

There are now regulations controlling ship emissions, particularly in costal areas and ports. Modern aircraft engines, with the exception of military aircraft are much cleaner than the 707s of old....

Your comment re homeowners is pure political speculation. Show me the facts. Fake news personified.

 

[finn1]

Do you? If so, why not educate the list on regeneration chemistry instead of making that sort of comment?
rScotty

Yes, I do. I have participated in many SAE discussions as a panel member on the subject, as well as Industry, EPA, CARB, South Coast Air Management seminars, customer focus groups, etc. I worked on Diesel Emissions and performance development for close to forty years.

There are many articles and research papers available to you with a little research, if you are truly interested. Start with a Google search, and check out Wikipedia.

 

[robbyr]

Don’t know about tractors but my Dodge truck was getting very sluggish. No longer have a particulate filter. And it runs better.

 

[Snobdds]

They did exactly what you propose: cars were the first to be regulated, followed by Diesel trucks, followed by off highway equipment.

There are now regulations controlling ship emissions, particularly in costal areas and ports. Modern aircraft engines, with the exception of military aircraft are much cleaner than the 707s of old....

Your comment re homeowners is pure political speculation. Show me the facts. Fake news personified.

I thought he was pretty spot on...

 

[jaydee325]

This was an interesting read:

Tier V/Euro Stage V

 

[Grumpycat]

An EGR system only deals with nitrous oxide levels as it reintroduces an inert gas that has already been used and the oxygen gone.
An DPF system only deals with particulate matter and it traps it in the DPF and uses UREA to burn off the matter once it reaches a certain flow restriction.
An SCR only deals with nitrous oxide and has been developed to convert the nitrogenous oxide into Co2, which does not hurt the Ozone.

Urea (not capitalized) is used by the SCR (not DPF) to reduce NOx. Not related to DPF, soot, C2.

One thing not mentioned is how a turbocharger is necessary to implement modern diesel emission controls. Direct injection was touched upon. Those two things are required to keep the combustion within the narrow range necessary for other emissions things to work. And by applying this greater control many get greater efficiency. EGR is another thing that has to be controlled but it doesn't help efficiency.

EGR is not such a bad thing but the exhaust has to be cooled before it can reenter the intake. This "heat exchanger" has not been trouble free in street applications.

 

[tomt574]

You are under the mistaken impression that the EPA cares what kind of equipment you are operating when it comes down hard on you. It does not. It's just easier to hit the road going stuff.

Actually you are only part correct. Edge, H&S, Bully Dog,..etc all have gotten around this issue because it stated off road use only. I have deleted all my Diesel trucks after owning 2 that gave nothing but trouble do to EGR and DPF emission systems. This is nothing but a political money grab and a nightmare for equipment. You are correct that they were slapped with fines. Edge and H&S but both now sell under off road use only. At the end of the day it is a shame that this crap has now made its way on to Tractors.

 

[RandyT]

Actually you are only part correct. Edge, H&S, Bully Dog,..etc all have gotten around this issue because it stated off road use only. I have deleted all my Diesel trucks after owning 2 that gave nothing but trouble do to EGR and DPF emission systems. This is nothing but a political money grab and a nightmare for equipment. You are correct that they were slapped with fines. Edge and H&S but both now sell under off road use only. At the end of the day it is a shame that this crap has now made its way on to Tractors.

The thing is off road equipment is not exempt, and as of 2010 neither is the end consumer. Unless the fines have gone up it was $3850/day to the consumer. Just because it isn't being enforced now doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Removing emissions control items by doing a delete is classified the same way as removing the catalytic converter for a gas engine automobile

 

[marchanna]

In Ontario Canada, they have a law that allows law enforcement to do a road side vehicle seizure if your vehicle has been performance modified. So any tuning box automatically qualifies you for your vehicle to be confiscated. The law does not discriminate between vehicles registered in or out of province.

 

[tomt574]

The thing is off road equipment is not exempt, and as of 2010 neither is the end consumer. Unless the fines have gone up it was $3850/day to the consumer. Just because it isn't being enforced now doesn't mean it won't be in the future. Removing emissions control items by doing a delete is classified the same way as removing the catalytic converter for a gas engine automobile

I will have to agree to disagree because off road vehicles can be exempt. Have you ever seen a dragster with a catalytic converter or race car..ETC.. My 2012 Cummins is completely deleted with H&S however it stated on purchase for off road use only. Is it legal no. Do I care. NO. I would rather have something that will last vs destroy it with the EGR, DPF system. Now I have also a 2019 Duramax that I have not deleted only because to delete it would cost about 6k. Maybe in the future but not now. It is a shame that we now have to deal with this on these small diesel engine tractors. As soon as I can figure out how to delete the one on this 2020 TYM it will be gone. These devices are not helping the "carbon foot print" they are only adding to it. Guess that's what eats on me.

 

[RandyT]

I will have to agree to disagree because off road vehicles can be exempt. Have you ever seen a dragster with a catalytic converter or race car..ETC.. My 2012 Cummins is completely deleted with H&S however it stated on purchase for off road use only. Is it legal no. Do I care. NO. I would rather have something that will last vs destroy it with the EGR, DPF system. Now I have also a 2019 Duramax that I have not deleted only because to delete it would cost about 6k. Maybe in the future but not now. It is a shame that we now have to deal with this on these small diesel engine tractors. As soon as I can figure out how to delete the one on this 2020 TYM it will be gone. These devices are not helping the "carbon foot print" they are only adding to it. Guess that's what eats on me.

Just give it time. Now required for Rally cars in the USA, and all racing in Europe.

 

[tomt574]

Just give it time. Now required for Rally cars in the USA, and all racing in Europe.

Yeah man thats crazy. Have nascar with cats...lol

 

[finn1]

Beginning last fall, the epa has been going after the 鍍uners with big fines and cease and desist orders. There is no such thing as getting around the laws by putting an off road only sticker on a controller to skirt the law anymore.

Many of the tuners have withdrawn from the market after receiving huge fines.