Our Telephone Line Saga

Nasty135 · Jun 21, 2005

Sailor Bob, If you still have service call them and tell them that you suspect the service feeding your house is exposed and your concerned about losing service.. Is it being driven across or is it running parallel to the drive? No matter either way it must be to safety code.. which in the training classes I had back in 1980 the code was 18", But the cable tv companies are using the same contractors to put there stuff in the same trench with the phone so look for it soon, if you have it...

I have dug up both of mine (phone and cable)with a shovel on two separate occasions /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I was very suprised when I hit it 6" on my second scoop of dirt. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif they fixed it the next day but its still only 6" under

LarryD · Jun 21, 2005

I was “charged” for it at what was a per foot rate since it was over 500’. 

And you didn't get what you paid for. I do not agree that 8" to 10" down is within tolerances (my tone changes when a contractor says "industry standards") I'll bet there is a county / state code somewhere that DOESN'T say ±10".

The other problem is this guy probably does this all the time and gets by with it. If he wants to run a business then he needs to give his customers what the contract says, not what HE feels is acceptable.

I'd probably go so far as to pothole every 50" to show the inferior installation and demand the whole line be installed to correct "Industry Standards".

Phred · Jun 21, 2005

Around here it is often much less than 8"!

I was helping a friend and it turns out that the phone line was down maybe 1".
The tech that repaired it made it clear that sometimes the contractor will just lay the cable on the ground and let the builder top it off with sod!
/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
That seemed to be the case at my friends house.

They will fix it for free in short runs, but they appear to only dig it a couple of inches and only when the customer complains due to a phone outage.

Fred

SailorBob · Jun 22, 2005

The phone is still working. It would not be a big deal for me to spiceit if it got cut. I used to be in the data and phone cabling business. It is just 6 pair burial grade phone wire. The line actually runs down my drive and then across it. My driveway is sort of S shaped. I did it that way to give more privacy to the house. The front of the property is wooded so you can't see the house from the street.

My biggest concern was them trying to charge me to fix it one day. I don't know why they even buried it. The cable on the street is on the utility pole and AL Power had to put a pole in the yard to bring in electricity.

Thanks for the info

LBrown59 · Jul 25, 2005

\
Removed , duplicated in error.

LBrown59 · Jul 25, 2005

<<
1*the phone co. contracted the install). Several conversations and I now have a “temporary” phone line running on the ground along the driveway from the pole to the house (1200’).
2*To get a permanent line installed again the phone company originally stated that I would need to dig a trench 24” deep (here we go again see below) and place a 2” PVC pipe with pull line for the new phone line to be installed in the field. We only plow 10 to 12 inches deep.
3*Why the PVC pipe requirement?
4*Seems to me that the phone co. should put a new line in since that original was not installed correctly.
5*I now have a “temporary” phone line running on the ground along the driveway from the pole to the house
6*I truly want to get the line repaired correctly, within a reasonable cost, but do not want to be taken.

>>...............
1* The ans. to this question may be very important.
Is there an interface box on the house?
My company SBC is responsible for everything going to this BOX. The customer is responsible for everything leaving said box.
Who is your company? - seems to me they are trying to take you if they are trying to make you pay for anything going to the interface.
2*This isn't a new installation it's a repair of the existing line for which the phone co should be responsible for.
3* it may be their requirement but I don't see it as your responsibility.
4*If this goes into an interface box it is the phones companies responsibility to maintain and repair that line at their expense. How that original was not installed has nothing to do with it!
5*I had a temp on the ground for about 2 months. The phone company recently buried it at no cost to me; Why because the line goes into the interface box which makes the line the phone companies baby.
6*If that line goes into an interface box the only reasonable cost to you is $0.00 as it is their obligation and not yours.
IF this line goes to and interface box and they are trying to make you pay anything toward it they are trying to take you for a ride.

LBrown59 · Jul 25, 2005

**************
The way it works here with SBC is that there's what is called an interface box.
Everything going to this box is the phone companies obligation at their expense while everything leaving it is the customers responsibility at his expense.

LBrown59 · Jul 26, 2005

1*It seems to me the phone line is your responsibility
2*its kinda hard to believe they are in a position to dictate using PVC
3*consider renting a trencher.
boustany
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
1*Why dose it seem like it's his responsibility? It don't appear that way to me!
2*Them demanding the PVC indicates to me that the line is their responsibility but they're trying to get him to foot a bill that's their obligation not his.
3*I wouldn't rent a trencher or pay anything for any part of their obligation for them.

The all important question regarding this situation is which side of the interface box is this line on?

What the interface does is determine who is responsible for what.
The phone company is responsible for everything going into the box including the box.
The customer is only responsible for what ever comes out of the box.


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Varmintmist · Jul 26, 2005

If the line was less than 12" then I would say you didnt get what you paid for, providing you have a contract saying that it will be over 18".

NEC codes should tell you what min spec is, dont have a book with me but I am pretty sure that its there. If not, ask for the telephone company practice, on paper.

Yes you should put conduit under a driveway or any other place that heavy traffic my cross the line, phone, catv, or power. Very simply the weight will, over time, grind stone into the cable.

You could use 4 in black flexpipe. Its not great as a conduit, but that will hug any grade you have.

As far as splices. A ped is better than a buried, simply because they go bad eventually. A flush ped should hold anything you could normally put on it. If you drop a scarfire off a D9 on it it will break, but you can drive over them. My preferance as a tech would be a above ground ped because you can find them /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif. Brushogs are a little rough on them though.

Like I stated in the first post. You paid for the thing to be buried correctly, it should be done right and I dont know why you would be paying for it again. Call the same super again, if you dont get a answer let him know that the BBB and the PUC are next.

18007821110 www.puc.paonline.com

.................
LBrown, you are right, to a point. The telco is only required to go so far to put the NID. There are places that there is a NID on a stake in the woods 1000 ca feet from the nearest terminal. The house is another 500+ feet from there.

Inspector507 · Jul 26, 2005

Varmintmist,
Actually the NEC® has no jurisdiction on the line coming from the telephone utility.

LBrown59 · Jul 26, 2005

( Varmintmist,
Actually the NEC® has no jurisdiction on the line coming from the telephone utility. )

Even it it did the enforcement would be against the phone company not drm .

Mavrik02 · Jul 27, 2005

Just built my house in western PA. I was responsible for digging the trench (I dug it 24" to 36" deep) and laying in the conduit (1.5" or 2" pipe) with the pull rope. My contractor did all of that and 90'd the pipe right up the base of the telephone pole and the base of the house. The telephone co. showed up and pulled two lines, hooked them up to their box on my house and left. I drilled through the foundation, figured out how to connect my Cat-5e wire to their box and presto...phone service.

Cable...I could tell stories about cable... /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Anyway, not everything here makes sense. Who had responsibility for running the original line? It sounds like drm did because he paid for it. If he did have responsibility who did he contract with, the phone company or the contractor? If he contracted with the phone company and they sub contracted it out to the contractor then drm has a legitimate beef with the phone company for doing the original work and now asking for something different (Is it typical for a phone company to offer this service?). If drm paid the contractor directly then he may have the responsibility to work out the issues with the contractor (it would be good if the original agreement and specs were in writing somewhere). Of coure this sounds screwy enough that there could be some local buddy/buddy business going on between the contractor and the phone company foreman.

Well...it's late July now so drm probably already got this issue resolved and doesn't need our "help" anymore /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Varmintmist · Jul 27, 2005

( Varmintmist,
Actually the NEC® has no jurisdiction on the line coming from the telephone utility. )

Right and wrong, there is the spec for buried utilities in the book, and I am pretty sure they have the depth of the various cables in the trench.
The NEC has control of placement of anything that will carry electricity that is near a electrical wire, underground or up in the air.

That said it will not be a definite answer because it isnt a joint use trench, but it is somthing to go on.

Here ya go
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/052/chapter63/s63.23.html
(§ 63.23. Construction and maintenance safety standards for facilities.
Overhead and underground public utility equipment or facilities and crossings of the wires or cables of every public utility over or under the facilities of other public utilities, cooperative associations or electric utilities—including parallel or random installation of underground electric supply and communication conductors or cable—shall be constructed and maintained in accordance with safe and reasonable standards as set forth in the National Electrical Safety Code, 1981 edition.
)
Non joint use trenches are probably at the phone co spec sooooo....

...................

( Even it it did the enforcement would be against the phone company not drm . ) There was no disscussion about enforcement, just trying to get specs to help him out. I stated in the first post that he already paid for the service and it should be done right.

LBrown59 · Jul 27, 2005

If drm paid the contractor directly then he may have the responsibility to work out the issues with the contractor
this sounds screwy enough that there could be some local buddy/buddy business going on between the contractor and the phone company foreman.
Mavrik02 
 ========== 

About 7 years ago I hired a contractor to dig a 150 foot ditch for a gas line.
Gas co. dictated 24'' deep.
Well, the guy hit big rocks about 12'' down for about 30 feet of the ditch and couldn't dig any deeper with the BH so he just made the ditch 12'' deep for the 30 feet over the rock and dug the remaining 120 feet down to the required 24 '' and left.
Later I got a bill for 260 dollars from him.

The gas company inspected the trench and naturally would not approve installing the line in it where it was only 12'' deep over the 30 feet of rock.
That resulted in me having to pay a rental company about 275 bucks to rent a compressor jack hammer and air hose from a rental company and several hours of hard labor for me and my brother cutting through all that rock getting the ditch down to the required 24''

The contractor kelp demanding the 260 dollars - I resolved that issue by never giving it to him.
Based on
1*I contracted with him to dig a ditch suitable to install a gas line in. it wasn't suitable as the Gas Co. rejected it.
Contractor breached the contract due to non performance.
2*The contractor is the some contractor that contracts with the gas company to dig ditches and install all their gas lines. This being the case he know full well what was required for the ditch I needed and was fully aware that what he provided wouldn't make the grade.

He finally just dropped the issue and I never heard from again.
Never took me to court or threatened to.
Once he saw that I knew the score that was the end of it.
It's pretty hard to enforce a contract you didn't perform on.

DRMs situation may be a bit similar to what happened to me.

AntrimMan · Jul 27, 2005

Witholding all of the funds is just wrong.
You should pay for what was done. Maybe not the entire amount agreed to but at least for what was done. You are thinking that the sum is so small that the excavator will never take action.
Research your deed to see if a lean has been placed by the contractor.
Martin

Mavrik02 · Jul 27, 2005

Most excavators that have written contracts (or provide written estimates) will have a "rock" clause (or something similar) in them to cover exactly what happened in your case. Even the ones I've worked with that don't have the written clause mention the possible contingencies up front (i.e. "If we hit solid rock we will have to do x, y, z and it will cost more).

I don't know how the discussion went with the contractor but my guess would be that if he did sue in the local civil court you would have ended up paying some portion of his original bid. The contractor has probably "been there/done that" several times already and figured it wasn't worth the effort.

Inspector507 · Jul 27, 2005

Ok.......But the NEC® and the NESC® are two different publications. In Ohio the NESC® is not enforceable by the local municipalities unless specifically adopted. Also what you quoted was the Pennsylvania Code which has specifically adopted it for use by utilities. The PUCO, in Ohio, mandates that the utilities use the National Electrical Safety Code® as well. But there is not an enforcement arm of that commission that would pursue any violation of it either.

Alan L. · Jul 27, 2005

Luckily what I found out last week when I cut my phone line in two places is that it was about 12" deep. Thats better than 8" I guess.

What I think is unethical is that you call the phone company (Verizon), they send a guy out and he splices the cable. Before he starts working on it I ask how much its gonna be. His response that he does not know, he just fixes what they tell him to fix and he turns it in. So I don't have the opportunity to make a decision on the repair based on a quote. I am supposed to just pay whatever they say. I guess I will find out when I get the bill. The guy was here aobut 45 minutes and used two gel splices.

Varmintmist · Jul 28, 2005

Inspector,
He is in PA, so I figured PA code was ok. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Like I said, it has nothing to do with enforcement, but you can get a guideline there. The PUC is where he needs to go if he thinks that he is not getting the service from the public utility that he is paying for.

Alan,
It is mostly billed time and material. So you can be billed for 2 gel caps, however many splices, and since he used 2 he used some cable to piece it out, plus his time. He may not even know what the cost of the splice is and will just turn in the work as billable with a T&M list.
In my experiance, not with Verison, homeowners rarely get billed for service drops. It costs almost as much to do the billing. UNLESS you were a PITA, then you would be sure to get a bill /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif If you backfilled the hole, and I had to dig it out, you would get a bill. If you had a hoe sitting there and left 2 little stubs sticking out of the sides of the trench and I got to dig them out, you would get a bill. Stuff like that.
If you had the ends cleared, and it sounds like you did I wouldnt have billed you. I may not have told you I wasn't going to bill you so you thought about it next time, but I wouldnt have billed you. Waste of time.