Orangeburg Sewer Pipe problem

[ultrarunner]

My 1957 home has about 250' of Orangeburg underground sewer line... for those not familiar, it is basically rolled tar paper that became very popular during the post WWII building boom and 50 years is about the max service life in a best case... so I am on borrowed time.

Has anyone tried to pull new sections of ABS line through the old pipe with a backhoe?

There is about a 65 foot section under my neighbor's patio/pool area... I have a 5' easement and later he had added the pool and and extensive patio... digging really is not an option.

Some of the local trenchless guys are very busy and the minimum price starts at $5,000 for a typical 40' run to the main... A homeowner paid 30k last year to upgrade his line or about $60 a foot.

County passed a new law this year requiring upgrades upon sale or large renovation so these guys have lots of work... All sewer lines must be inspected and certified... Orangeburg is an automatic fail.

Just out of curiosity, I looked into a turn key burst pipe rig and they price out at 30 to 40k...

It would be a lot easier to slide a 3" line in the old 4" Orangeburg... not sure this is an option...

Every three months I run my auger through the line to keep roots at bay... so my line is basically shot.

Any thoughts?

 

[PoorPlowboy]

I would wager that 4" has collapsed in places to be smaller than a 3 and would require digging. Perhaps your neighbor should have realized, or been reminded of, your easement before laying an expensive patio and pool on it.

I've not replaced any without trenching, as frankly I've never seen a sewer line installation worth the cost of trenchless tunneling. Perhaps your neighbor that poured the concrete on your easement would be interested in footing the bill for the trenchless driller?

 

[bcp]

Negotiate with your neighbor for a new, unobstructed easement in trade for the old one.

Bruce

 

[ultrarunner]

Both homes were built in 1957 by the same developer and each sit on one acre of some steep terrain.

Neighbor bought in 1957 and had Pool and Patio installed in 1964. I bought in 2005...

The HDPE pipe looks interesting... it is what the trechless guys use here in the city.

I'm really good at running my Sparton 300 drain auger... had lots of practice the last few years... there are other pathways that wouldn't effect neighbor and still provide ample slope... they would need me to saw cut and a lot more...

Years back, I watched a farmer pull pipe with a steel cable and an old backhoe... I found it fascinating that he made it look so easy

 

[dodge man]

I work for a civil engineering firm and am a land surveyor, but I have also done quite a bit of construction inspection. My experience is that the orangeburg pipe will no longer be round. It often ends up flat. If seen pipe bursting work well, but I don't know if it would work in your situation. I'd say you are stuck either open cutting it or going with a trenchless set up. Can you rent the equipment and do it your self. Some of the larger mini excavators can dig pretty deep.

 

[PatasColo]

Neighbor bought in 1957 and had Pool and Patio installed in 1964. I bought in 2005...

[...snip...] there are other pathways that wouldn't effect neighbor and still provide ample slope... they would need me to saw cut and a lot more...

Ultra, thanks for providing the info on dates... I think it pays to be a good neighbor, and though you have an easement, I commend your looking for a solution that leaves your neighbor OK, given the details and how long he's been there, etc.. I like the idea of looking for a new route for the drain... might simplify things a whole lot if you brainstorm on it for a while.

If you can test out the pipe pulling without a lot of cost, why not go ahead and do a "test pull", maybe just dragging a 3-inch section (just a few feet long) all the way through the drain underground... if it makes it through, good chance you could pull your own pipe. The only other problem I see with this is that a 3-inch drain seems awfully small (prone to clogging), and not sure if it would meet code (check locally). Remember if you do your math that the cross section of a 3-inch pipe is 7 square inches, and 4-inch is 12.5 square inches... that's a lot of difference (with regard to clogging).

Best of luck... this stuff isn't usually replaced until it ultimately fails. People all downtalk the Orangeburg, but it strikes me as kinda' funny: there's not much you can replace it with that you can expect to last as long... 50 years+ is a good long time!

 

[ultrarunner]

So far... the few feet I have seen have not deformed too much... although, a local plumber says he always finds cross sections that look like a figure "8"... deformed top and bottom.

All the lines under the home are 3" cast iron and then transition to the 4" Orangeberg outside and under the added shop all the way to the main...

The drainage lines are also all Orangeberg... not really a problem so far.

I'm sure none of the line is deeper than 3 feet... there are two cleanouts and it is more like 24" deep.

The business next to work had trenchless work done... it was real slick... only two small 4'x4' by 4' deep pits to replace about 50' of line with a heat welded continuous High Density Polyethylene 4" pipe...

At least time is on my side... no plans to sell and I do have my auger at the ready...

 

[Kays Supply]

I have pulled 20' of 4" sch 40 through old OB. It worked pretty slick. One thing in your favor is that most of the time there has been enough leakage around the old OB that it makes it slicker to pull the new. I made a plug out of a 4" iron cap. I drilled a hole in it and put a HD eyebolt in it. It is just a little bigger than 4" sch 40. I threaded a 4" male PVC adapter into it and glued the pipe to it. I let it set for 24 hrs. Took the sewer tape and back pulled a cable. I took the trackhoe and it slid out the OB and pulled in the sch 40. 50-60' would be nerve racking.

There was a guy on the job last week with a boring machine. He bored in several hundred feet of pipe. Have you checked on having a new line bored in right next to your old one? With their sending unit they can hold it on grade and true R/L to within a few inches. Then you could pull in your own 4" sch 40.

 

[ultrarunner]

I have pulled 20' of 4" sch 40 through old OB. It worked pretty slick. One thing in your favor is that most of the time there has been enough leakage around the old OB that it makes it slicker to pull the new. I made a plug out of a 4" iron cap. I drilled a hole in it and put a HD eyebolt in it. It is just a little bigger than 4" sch 40. I threaded a 4" male PVC adapter into it and glued the pipe to it. I let it set for 24 hrs. Took the sewer tape and back pulled a cable. I took the trackhoe and it slid out the OB and pulled in the sch 40. 50-60' would be nerve racking.

Sounds very slick...

Just spoke with the supply house and they carry 20 and 40' lengths... depending on qty... price is between $2.50 and $3 a foot...

I'm in earthquake country and little tremors happen here... sometimes, ABS will break because it is not very flexible...

Like the pipe cap and eyebolt!

My neighbor has one of the large WARN winches... 12 or 15k... have no idea if that is enough pull.

You are right about seepage... every joint I've uncovered seeps.

 

[450EXC]

I'm no expert but dos'nt relining just conform to the inside of the existing pipe ? If the OB is oval shaped you would just end up with a new pvc oval pipe ? Or a new figure 8? Maybe they can run a slug through there to reshape it, like pipebursting ?

It would probably be worth it to televise it anyway. If you do a lot of your own maintenance I think you can get a low end camera pretty cheap - $ 2-3K ?