notice to owner questions

[Soundguy]

Got a question on filing notice to owner.

We pretty much send them out on all our jobs that are mor ethan a couple K$.

Got an issue with a landowner right now.. we did some work on their land under contract. after contract was completed, they had us go back and do more incremental work , paying / billing by the hour, sending in weekly bills.

they abruptly cut us off one day after we had about 11k$ of invoices in ( 2 weeks ). sent them notice to owner ( they live in another city in the same state.. but they have some property up here that we were working on.

anyway.. they let the NTo set at the PO till it was returned.

I've never been down this road where someone refused NTO service.

what's next? I'm unsure of how to procede with a lien without proof of filing nTO?

 

[aczlan]

Was it sent registered mail? IIRC, sending it to them registered mail to the last known address is proof enough, they can refuse to accept it, but as long as you sent it to them, that is proof enough. I would ask the Department of Business and Professional Regulation, their contact info and some info on liens is at: http://www.myfloridalicense.com/dbpr/pro/cilb/documents/florida_lien_law.pdf

Aaron Z

 

[aczlan]

Found some more info (assuming that this is a FL lien), Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine references the following section re: the serving of notices:

(3)(a) Service of an instrument pursuant to this section is effective on the date of mailing the instrument if it:
1. Is sent to the last address shown in the notice of commencement or any amendment thereto or, in the absence of a notice of commencement, to the last address shown in the building permit application, or to the last known address of the person to be served; and
2. Is returned as being "refused," "moved, not forwardable," or "unclaimed," or is otherwise not delivered or deliverable through no fault of the person serving the item.
(b) If the address shown in the notice of commencement or any amendment to the notice of commencement, or, in the absence of a notice of commencement, in the building permit application, is incomplete for purposes of mailing or delivery, the person serving the item may complete the address and properly format it according to United States Postal Service addressing standards using information obtained from the property appraiser or another public record without affecting the validity of service under this section.
(4) A notice served by a lienor on one owner or one partner of a partnership owning the real property is deemed notice to all owners and partners.

Aaron Z

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. it was sent certified, return reciept request.

and yes.. it was returned 'unclaimed'

so it looks like that counts as service.

thanks

 

[sam5570]

Soundguy what worries me about this is you completed a contract correct, did you draw up another contract for the additional work if not from my exprience you messed up. man i hope you didn't do that

 

[Soundguy]

i'm not the estimator, so I don't know how the rest of the work was contracted. I just got stuck starting the NOT / lien investigative process.

 

[sam5570]

i'm not the estimator, so I don't know how the rest of the work was contracted. I just got stuck starting the NOT / lien investigative process.

best of luck to you. don't know florida laws but i sure no virginia law's on trying to collect money for services rendred without contract. i hope it don't turn into a he said she said pi**** contest. i hope there is just a simple solution.

 

[Soundguy]

we'll see.

knowing hte owner.. I have a sneaking suspision that once the primary contract was done.. and they started the by the wour work.. somthing may not have hit paper. and if so.. the only proof we have about that hourly work are some of the previous invoices that are post primary contract.

at least we will have that as some basis for post primary contract work.

I love getting stuff like this dumped in my lap. this usually happens when something goes funky.. I get drug in to sweep up. would have rather been with it from t he start.. etc..

 

[paulharvey]

Soundguy, several queations
1: did you ever meet your client, because my understanding in florida is that the Notice of Intent to File a Lein is only required where the contractor is unknown (ie a sub or subsub) to the owner.
2. And dont take this the wrong way, but you were legal right, not performing as a unlicenses contractor (that nulifies your mechanics lien rights)
3. Verbal contracts are legally binding, hard to prove but they are legal. And work beyond your scope of work would be evidence of an agreement.

4. If you over inflat or falseify yiur claims that is a complete defense against you (you did $2500, but billed for $3500 you loose your.right to collect any)

Its been several years since ive messed with this, but you should be in the right

 

[sam5570]

well that sucks because you got to start from the begining because you were not part of the negotiateing process. paul harvy has some encouraging new's. might not be as bad as i thought in virginia if it's not on paper forget it. it will be a lot of leg work on your part but hope for the best.

 

[Soundguy]

1, we are the general contractor.. no subs, I have not personally met the client, the owner and estimator have.

2 we hold valid general, underground, and mechanical contractors license in florida. Are insured, general liability, work comp.. commercial auto package.. etc.. been in business and incorporated back in 84.. I've been witht he company since 87 with a 3 year laps from about 90 thru 93.

3/4, at least the primary work was under written contract / signed proposal. the rest of the work? I haven't seen a contract.. but have processed some hourly invoices.. so the rest of the work may be verbal. We are charging the same hourly rate for equipment and labor that was charged on the primary contract, and though I havn't verified.. I bet it's at near same prices of other similar contract work we do. IE.. hour rate for machine rental is probably bang on.. etc.

Soundguy, several queations
1: did you ever meet your client, because my understanding in florida is that the Notice of Intent to File a Lein is only required where the contractor is unknown (ie a sub or subsub) to the owner.
2. And dont take this the wrong way, but you were legal right, not performing as a unlicenses contractor (that nulifies your mechanics lien rights)
3. Verbal contracts are legally binding, hard to prove but they are legal. And work beyond your scope of work would be evidence of an agreement.

4. If you over inflat or falseify yiur claims that is a complete defense against you (you did $2500, but billed for $3500 you loose your.right to collect any)

Its been several years since ive messed with this, but you should be in the right

 

[paulharvey]

Then I believe you are within your rights to file a lien. The owner personally knew your company was on the job. The reason for notice of intent is so that the owner is aware of all companies working there, so that the owner can make sure they get paid, which the owner (as the one benefitting for the improved property), is responsible for.

How is your record keeping, do you have written dates, machine hours, man hours for that specific job.

You seem to have a very good case unless they are claiming the additional work was punch work or already paid for under orginal contract. What is the owners response, avoiding calls? says he doesnt owe? Or is he just dead broke? Crook?

Is it enough money to get lawyer?

 

[Soundguy]

we have daily forman sheets that get turned in from each work crew. lists the job site, foreman, pieces of machinery used.. the hours that machine ran, and the hours per laborer that worked on that job. ( incedental info is listed on the sheet. weather.. injuries reported, fuel delivery..e tc... )

owner seems to be pulling the jerk / crook deal. they have plenty of property, my guess is they are quite solvent. they stopepd returning phone calls, and as of yesterday, i guess mail, as our NTO was returned unclaimed after 3 delivery attempts by USPS.

work was deffinatelty additional past contract. shows different areas in the google wearth maps we are going off of.. etc..

Then I believe you are within your rights to file a lien. The owner personally knew your company was on the job. The reason for notice of intent is so that the owner is aware of all companies working there, so that the owner can make sure they get paid, which the owner (as the one benefitting for the improved property), is responsible for.

How is your record keeping, do you have written dates, machine hours, man hours for that specific job.

You seem to have a very good case unless they are claiming the additional work was punch work or already paid for under orginal contract. What is the owners response, avoiding calls? says he doesnt owe? Or is he just dead broke? Crook?

Is it enough money to get lawyer?

 

[paulharvey]

Check this page out, dont think I ccan link,but ill type it in

Zlien.com/blog/how-to-file-florida-mechanics-lien/

dont know but if you dont file a Notice of Commencement it might have to be civil lawsuit instead of a mechanics lien.

Best of luck, ive lost money doimg this sort of stuff before, and had no real recoarse. And people think it always the contractor who is the crook.

 

[Soundguy]

i'll get back on it monday when I hit the office...