New to me 240D

[California]

Thanks @California. Question, do you recall how hard you had to turn when removing the broken stud? I'm putting a fair amount of force on the extractor and it's not budging the bolt

I do have a maintenance question. I ended up draining the Trans/Hydr fluid and I was pleasantly surprised that it and the filter/screen were in excellent shape. However, I did notice a bit of small metal shavings in the old fluid and on the screen.

I don't have any good advice on either issue, the extractor or the metal flakes. Maybe someone else will respond.

As I recall I was using about the same amount of force as you would apply tapping new threads and are getting in deep, when that little stud finally loosened. I suspect it had threadlocker from the factory. Use a tap-handle on the extractor so all the force applied is rotational. Turning the tap with a wrench loads sideways force, increasing the risk of breaking it.

I like dirttoys' advice to keep drilling with your left-hand bits until you are risking the threads. That should allow a larger and more durable extractor.

With water pipe I've then crushed the weakened remnant with a narrow chisel but I don't know if that's applicable here. That approach might shake it loose if its weakened. There's also heat/cold as a tool to break it free. Heat the metal around it then jam ice into your hole in the bolt. And heating might break a threadlocker bond. But I'm an amateur, maybe a real machinist has better ideas.

The metal in the UTF may just be from clumsy shifts, grinding the gears. Nothing you can do about it.

Does this hole go directly into the engine block, so you couldn't put a nut behind a new bolt?

 

[supermansv]

I don't have any good advice on either issue, the extractor or the metal flakes. Maybe someone else will respond.

As I recall I was using about the same amount of force as you would apply tapping new threads and are getting in deep, when that little stud finally loosened. I suspect it had threadlocker from the factory. Use a tap-handle on the extractor so all the force applied is rotational. Turning the tap with a wrench loads sideways force, increasing the risk of breaking it.

I like dirttoys' advice to keep drilling with your left-hand bits until you are risking the threads. That should allow a larger and more durable extractor.

With water pipe I've then crushed the weakened remnant with a narrow chisel but I don't know if that's applicable here. That approach might shake it loose if its weakened. There's also heat/cold as a tool to break it free. Heat the metal around it then jam ice into your hole in the bolt. And heating might break a threadlocker bond. But I'm an amateur, maybe a real machinist has better ideas.

The metal in the UTF may just be from clumsy shifts, grinding the gears. Nothing you can do about it.

Does this hole go directly into the engine block, so you couldn't put a nut behind a new bolt?

Thank you for the reply.

The hole does go directly into the block, so unfortunately no way to put a nut behind it.

Going to try a bit more with the smaller bit this morning after the PB sat overnight. If that doesn't work, I'll move to the next size up and give it a try.

Appreciate the help gents.

-Zach

 

[ljjhouser]

Welcome to TBN. This is a great place to get help! Nice looking tractor. Best Wishes, Larry

 

[bmaverick]

Thank you for the reply.

The hole does go directly into the block, so unfortunately no way to put a nut behind it.

Going to try a bit more with the smaller bit this morning after the PB sat overnight. If that doesn't work, I'll move to the next size up and give it a try.

Appreciate the help gents.

-Zach

Should the bolt have a thread-locker, PB will not dissolve that material because it's basically pet-safe propylene glycol as the main ingredient to loosen things.

Something that stubborn and with thread-locker needs Deep-Creep. It will dissolve the thread-locker and get into tightest press-fit gaps.

I would really recommend this very thorough testing of the leading penetrants to review.

 

[ponytug]

Thanks, it was kind of an accident drilling through as I didn't know how much bolt was in there. I guess it's a good thing though because now I can spray PB behind the bolt and hopefully loosen it up.

Certainly not a dumb question on how centering . I think I got it pretty centered, but it is off just slightly. From the HF kit, I do have the next size up, but that will drill out most of the bolt. My concern there was I wouldn't have much left for the extractor to grab onto..

I pulled one of the other bolts on the FEL frame, it was stripped to all heck and back. I'm guessing the others will be the same. Looks like I need to get all new bolts and a tap to chase the threads on all of these.. The fun continues .

Thanks for the tips Ed!

Having done this a few times, I have never managed to get the drill centered on the bolt hole. Nevertheless, when you get close to the threads, I have found that the remnants of the bolt threads eventually just cave into the drill and you can get them out.

One upside to having the bolt shear off too deep for welding a nut on is that you have some starter threads. If you start with a bottoming tap (with tapping fluid!), it will follow the existing threads and get you the 6-8 threads you need for a standard tap to do a good job. Once a standard tap has gone to the right depth (I measure the depth beforehand so I don't break the tap in the blind hole), you can use a bottoming tap to get the last 1-2 threads tapped.

Worst case: if you drill out the threads is that you can come back with a helicoil thread insert.

In the stupid things that I have done category:
For me, I find getting a sheared bolt out and the hole returned to service a lesson to me in the importance of patience and not rushing things. When I have pushed it, I have ended up with broken drills or taps embedded in the hole and things get really ugly. I self taught myself a bunch of metalworking, and getting schooled by experts came rather late in my career (still learning lots!), so in the past, I have done things that in hindsight were just plain stupid.

(Thanks @bmaverick for the Deep Creep tip! I never knew it existed. And +1 on PB blaster.)

All the best,

Peter

 

[SaintJames]

The other trick for snapped of bolts, is to cut a slit with a small dremmel tool, if you are lucky, a big screw driver can catch the new slit and back out that piece left behind. We often heat them first, as well

 

[greenerdreams]

whenever i cant get a bolt out one of my first options is welding something to the stud. sometimes depending on space available i will weld a nut or something with a void and then weld a bolt into that void. sometimes the heating and cooling will break the bond and it comes out easy. learned this after trying to get very badly stuck bearing races out, if you weld around the inside of a race it will almost fall out after cooling.

 

[pacosperson]

You probably know it's important to get that drilled hole as close as possible to center. It looks like someone has used some incorrect 'bolt bin' cad plated cap screws. These at least should be easy to drill IF that is what broke off. Try to get all the way through and then squirt in some penetrating oil and stop until the next day. If those steel bolts are in cast iron as it appears, you should be fine. Re-tap the holes and use the longest bolt possible for re-assembly.

 

[CoyPatton]

An old timers trick I was taught lots of years ago by an uncle, he said an old timer taught him is candle wax.
Heat the bolt/threaded hole (it just needs to get warm enough at the rear of the bolt to wick the wax there, not glowing red hot). Then press the candle to the bolt allowing it to wick into the threads. The slickness of the wax works against thread locker, rust, torque. The wax/bolt needs to cool before removal for best results although I have done it while still warm, but cooled enough I can work the extractor.

 

[ponytug]

I'm sure that the candle wax trick works, because I have heard it more than a few times. All I can say is I must not have the right candles or I don't know how to light them. I have even tried putting a torch on it and then melting the wax. No luck. Beef tallow candles? Spermaceti?

PB blaster for me, though I have Kroil, Penetrol and a few others around, "just in case".

All the best,

Peter

 

[fried1765]

Left handed drill bits work shocking well, had to go to northern tool or HF to find them. Welding to it if you can get to it works well. Saw a guy weld pipe on bolts sheared deep, but they were big bolts and he had thick wall pipe that he could still get a rod through.

If it goes through the frame, not everyone thinks about it, but, don't be afraid to go after it from the other side.

Best,

ed

Unless you enjoy having even more trouble, AVOID any HF or NT dill bits of any type!
A QUALITY left hand drill bit is a very useful tool!
I have two LH drill bit sets.

 

[supermansv]

Thanks all!

Still no luck as of tonight. Tried letting it sit overnight and today with multiple sprays of PB. Unfortunately it's behind the FEL mount, so I'm unable to get heat to it. Might try the Deep Creep stuff tomorrow and see if that helps. I think my only other option after the Deep Creep will be to remove the FEL so I can get better access. It looks like a PITA, so I'm hoping I don't have to go that route.

On another note: I seem to have caused myself another problem. I noticed when I was checking out the tractor, if I didn't have quite a bit of throttle going and I tried to use the hydraulics, the tractor would bog down. If I ran the RPM's up to 2200 or so, it seemed to do ok, but the engine definitely surged a bit when using the hydraulics. I was messing with the fuel on/off valve the other day and when I went to start the tractor and pull it into my garage, it quite on me and wouldn't start. So, I was already thinking of changing the fuel filter anyways, which I did today. Unfortunately I'm still unable to get the tractor to run right. If I use the decompress first, I can kind of get the tractor to run, but the RPMs will not increase at full throttle, it stays at less than 2000 and essentially barely runs. I already went through the operations manual and followed the bleeding procedure several times, however I must be missing something and still have air somewhere in the system. Does any of this make sense to you guys? Any suggestions?

Thanks!

-Zach

 

[dirttoys]

Thanks all!

Still no luck as of tonight. Tried letting it sit overnight and today with multiple sprays of PB. Unfortunately it's behind the FEL mount, so I'm unable to get heat to it. Might try the Deep Creep stuff tomorrow and see if that helps. I think my only other option after the Deep Creep will be to remove the FEL so I can get better access. It looks like a PITA, so I'm hoping I don't have to go that route.

On another note: I seem to have caused myself another problem. I noticed when I was checking out the tractor, if I didn't have quite a bit of throttle going and I tried to use the hydraulics, the tractor would bog down. If I ran the RPM's up to 2200 or so, it seemed to do ok, but the engine definitely surged a bit when using the hydraulics. I was messing with the fuel on/off valve the other day and when I went to start the tractor and pull it into my garage, it quite on me and wouldn't start. So, I was already thinking of changing the fuel filter anyways, which I did today. Unfortunately I'm still unable to get the tractor to run right. If I use the decompress first, I can kind of get the tractor to run, but the RPMs will not increase at full throttle, it stays at less than 2000 and essentially barely runs. I already went through the operations manual and followed the bleeding procedure several times, however I must be missing something and still have air somewhere in the system. Does any of this make sense to you guys? Any suggestions?

Thanks!

-Zach

Sure, there are some good replies as EVERYONE with an old diesel goes through this. I should copy this and make it easier for everyone.

1. Make sure you have free fuel flow from the tank, or lift pump which ever you have. If not clean fix the pick tube or collapsed/clogged fuel line from tank to (normally fuel filter).
2. Replace fuel filter, make sure you have unrestricted flow to the injector side of the fuel filter.
3. Bleed system per operators guide.
4. Crack an injector and make sure you get fuel. If you get air at the injector, then fuel, you might have to crack them all until you get solid mist of fuel at each.
5, If still no start, or failed any of the above, report back. The good news is; if this starts out goofing around with the tractor, it is usually not too hard to sort. Please don't pull the injector pump off and try and clean it

Best,

ed

 

[California]

The old time Yanmar dealers who used to post here said there is never a need to bleed at the injectors on a Yanmar. Any air downstream from the injector pump can be pushed though the injectors as more fuel arrives. The preferred procedure is:

On the fuel filter, first bleed the screw nearest the fuel tank until pure fuel comes out. Close it and bleed the one on the outlet side of the filter, then close that one. Then bleed the screw down at the pump inlet. That's all there is to it. If there is air between the pump and injectors, cranking will push it through the injectors.

supermansv, make sure there is nothing blocking hydraulic flow. For example holding a loader control in Lift position after the loader has reached the top, can load down the engine like you describe. That's what this sounds like to me.

One more peculiarity of these Yanmars: If the fuel cap is on too tight, the gravity feed down to the fuel filter won't deliver fuel. The tank needs to breathe. But generally you won't notice this until after a few minutes of mowing etc that is consuming fuel.

 

[bmaverick]

The old time Yanmar dealers who used to post here said there is never a need to bleed at the injectors on a Yanmar. Any air downstream from the injector pump can be pushed though the injectors as more fuel arrives. The preferred procedure is:

On the fuel filter, first bleed the screw nearest the fuel tank until pure fuel comes out. Close it and bleed the one on the outlet side of the filter, then close that one. Then bleed the screw down at the pump inlet. That's all there is to it. If there is air between the pump and injectors, cranking will push it through the injectors.

supermansv, make sure there is nothing blocking hydraulic flow. For example holding a loader control in Lift position after the loader has reached the top, can load down the engine like you describe. That's what this sounds like to me.

One more peculiarity of these Yanmars: If the fuel cap is on too tight, the gravity feed down to the fuel filter won't deliver fuel. The tank needs to breathe. But generally you won't notice this until after a few minutes of mowing etc that is consuming fuel.

Actually, this is the best procedure I've found on the web and it works extremely well.
How to bleed air out of the fuel system

I had twice ran the tank empty and just messing with the injection pump screws did nothing. Cranking never pushed the fuel forwards either. Yet, once the lines before the injectors were loosed a tad, cranked and retighten, the engine fired right up.

Here is Aaron's great writeup. He even has a video link there too.

 

[supermansv]

Thank you all for the great information.

I went to try again and when tightening the banjo bolt down, the inner bolt just snapped right off. It felt a little weird last night when I was retightening, guess that should have been a sign.

Welp, now I get to find another one of those.. Hoping I can source one locally vs. having to order from Hoye or somewhere else. I assume it's somewhat of a standard fitting? Anyone have thoughts on where to find one?

Thanks,
Zach

 

[ponytug]

McMaster, is my go to for odd items, if you can't find one locally. Or Amazon.

All the best,

Peter

 

[pmsmechanic]

Thank you all for the great information.

I went to try again and when tightening the banjo bolt down, the inner bolt just snapped right off. It felt a little weird last night when I was retightening, guess that should have been a sign.

Welp, now I get to find another one of those.. Hoping I can source one locally vs. having to order from Hoye or somewhere else. I assume it's somewhat of a standard fitting? Anyone have thoughts on where to find one?

Thanks,
Zach

My experience with banjo bolts is once they are over tightened the fitting is bent and it might seal with new copper washers or it might not. I was able to salvage the fittings by filing each side flat again.

 

[DangerousDan55]

I retired from Shell Oil and I have removed many broke fastnerns in my 34 years.
Removed from setscrews to large bolts.
In my young years a journeyman taught me this trick.
Drill your screw/bolt.
Have a bottle of water with the top having a hole drilled in it, as to squirt a stream of water.
Heat the screw And surrounding metal nice and HOT. Not warm, but HOT!
Let it heat soak for a bit(20 seconds)
Now squirt a stream of water into the hole that you drilled into the screw. Use about the whole bottle of water.
Then quickly Tap in the screw extractor and try uncrewing the broken screw.
Sometimes it may take two attempts.
Now. Process reasoning is...
Heating the screw and surrounding area allows the metal to expand. And, with the base metal area having more mass and holding the heat longer, the Quinching of the screw with water allows the screw to cool and shrink just a bit allowing its removale.
Note- with the size of screw/bolt that your dealing with, there's a lesser chance of breaking the screw extactor. Just don't go "Gorilla" on it.
At Shell, they called me....
Dr. Ruth the "screw doctor"

I also was successful with the above mentioned weld method.

Now, on you fuel issue....
I fought a similar issue.
Cheched & cleaned everything including the filters. I finally pulled the fuel filter/petcock assembly appart. I replaced a small O-ring in the petcock valve, reassembled, and my ym226D ran like a champ!
I was sucking in air through the small worn O-ring.
Just maybe your issue.....
Good luck!

 

[ponytug]

x2 on the power of a pinhole leak.

I had a pinhole leak in the gravity fed portion of a diesel engine once.(Yanmar clone) It ran, but was easily bogged down. After a number of replacement parts, including a critical one that turned out also to be defective, the pinhole air leak was fixed. The performance was night and day. It was a different engine.

I hadn't fully comprehended the hydraulic aspects of a diesel engine before that, despite having owned and worked with them for many years. A little air destroys the timing, the fuel/air ratio, performance, and the responsiveness of the engine.

So, yes, worth paying attention to, or at lest considering, in my opinion.

All the best,

Peter