New Septic System Troubles

[jenkinsph]

Listen, I lived in SC for 25 years. NEVER assume your builder, or his subcontractor, know anything about what they do. I am not joking, I have never been in an area with such incompetence in the building trades. Get the engineer to figure it out, and get the builder to fix it. Otherwise, you will be fixing it when you go to sell the house, and it fails the septic certification.

Can not attest to the incompetence part but would agree with the rest of this. Have the engineer figure it out and get the builder to fix it on his nickel. Agree with the point about it failing a septic inspection in the future and your having to pay to rework it on YOUR nickel.


A good and smart contractor or sub contractor will learn it is cheaper to get in there and fix it even if it costs them some money. Litigation, bad feelings and reputation are all more costly than making this right. As a contractor with 3o years experience I can say that every once in a while I have had to go back and rework something due to my fault or a sub's fault. Just apologize, fix it right and move on. You will remember it and not make that mistake again.

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

I'm relieved to see you on the right track.

 

[fishheadbob]

"just put a pickup load of dirt on it. "
I wouldn't just be getting a lawyer, I'd be getting the meanest s.o.b. lawyer in the area. I'm no engineer but it sure sounds like you ran into some cut and run types who will be nothing but no-show trouble until your system is done right.

 

[jrdepew]

Update.

We went months without any issues after I started this thread...until it started raining again. The system seems to keep up fine when the weather is relatively dry, but as soon as we get a big rain storm the system is full.

I went back and forth between the builder, septic company, DHEC, and the engineering firm countless times to get this sorted out.

The short version of all this is that the engineering firm sent their soil classifier back to my house to re-classify the soil. The classifier found a layer of clay, and wrote a report for the engineering firm. The engineer called me and said that the original soil classification was wrong. The engineer concluded that the layer of clay and organics beneath the clean sand fill they brought in is making the drain field act like a large bath tub instead of operating correctly.

The proposed fix is to add a 3rd drain line (there are currently 2), next to the 2nd drain line. This drain line is to be dug to a depth that bypasses all clay and organics. The septic installers will also add what is basically a cistern at each existing drain line that punches below the clay/organics layer to improve their performance.

We only live on .4 acres, so adding a 3rd drain line is not ideal...half the back yard will be drain field at that point.

There is also poor access to the drain field, as there is a tight squeeze between our AC compressor and a large tree, as well as a 5' wide fence gate. The septic installers are saying that part of the fence will need to be removed and reinstalled because their equipment needs 80" of clearance.

Through all of this, I have been extremely patient...probably too patient. The septic company has had to pump our system out twice as we could not flush the toilets. Thankfully we had that area in the drain field that water was gushing out of...or we could have had a backup into the house.

I have called the local bar association to get a referral to an attorney. I tried calling a few in the area using a "find a lawyer" website and came up empty. None of them deal with this kind of issue (construction defects). I am tired of the lip service and think I reached my breaking point this morning.

I will post again as I get more info. I didn't want to leave this thread hanging.

What I have learned through all this is that inspections are kind of a joke...maybe it is just here. Also, my faith in contractors continues to dwindle...which is why I do nearly everything myself.

I nearly have a shed that I built complete, and a screened in porch is next. Then a bathroom re-do. I will likely hire someone to tile a shower for us...and I am already sweating as find a trustworthy, competent contractor is hard :confused2:

A picture of the shed (some good to go with the bad)



-Joe

 

[RNeumann]

So the engineer has admitted fault and designed a fix. They will now need to pay a company to ensure this is completed. You don't say if it's going to be the original installers. You also don't say whether or not the installers are pulling this for free. My fear with lawyering up now is the lawyer will only delay things at this point. The engineer has admitted fault so I'd be asking them what the schedule is- I'd assume they are paying for the fix.

Most states require the contractors and professionals to warranty against construction defects. Idaho is one year and California is 10 years. I'm not sure what your state requires. That would be an easy thing to figure out though.

 

[jrdepew]

So the engineer has admitted fault and designed a fix. They will now need to pay a company to ensure this is completed. You don't say if it's going to be the original installers. You also don't say whether or not the installers are pulling this for free. My fear with lawyering up now is the lawyer will only delay things at this point. The engineer has admitted fault so I'd be asking them what the schedule is- I'd assume they are paying for the fix.

Most states require the contractors and professionals to warranty against construction defects. Idaho is one year and California is 10 years. I'm not sure what your state requires. That would be an easy thing to figure out though.

Statute of Limitations on this in SC is 3 years.

I am not sure who is going to end up paying the tab...I have not asked. I know that the septic installers have been billing the builder for the septic tank pumping that we have had done. I am not sure if he is back-charging the engineering company. I have not been asked to pay for anything. The original installers are the ones that would be doing the fix. The original installers and the engineer have been in contact throughout this whole process.

We will see what happens over the next couple weeks...I have calmed down a little since my last post.

There isn't a lot of information on this sort of problem online, making research hard. The fix honestly seems a little like a hack to me, which is why I was getting a little fired up. That, and the septic company that will be doing the install can't seem to give me a timeline other than "we are really busy and we will get to it soon". It would seem like, especially in this industry, if you have a customer with a failed system, that should take priority over other jobs.

-Joe

 

[PILOON]

With a particular quality of contractor ""we are really busy and we will get to it soon" means that that time spent in correction will not generate any cash.
Those types want the $$'s at every days end!
Sadly there some trades that seem a bit shy in the ethics department.
A real serous contractor would want to clear up any complaints ASAP so as to maximize his reputation.

 

[RNeumann]

Your contact is the house contractor and the engineering firm. As long as the tank is pumped I'm not sure what the rush is. They have pumped it every other time- I see no reason to worry it won't get done again......unless you lawyer up and or piss them off. What other info do you need? Happy to help. This sounds like an honest mistake they are owning/admitting and are going to fix. The layer of clay is what they will get below and hopefully that fixes things.

 

[hawkeye08]

Hang in there, sounds like there is a plan and progress

 

[CurlyDave]

Statute of Limitations on this in SC is 3 years.

I am not sure who is going to end up paying the tab...I have not asked...

I would get that point cleared up immediately and in writing.

When I had a construction defect a few years ago, it was handled by a real-estate lawyer. It was expensive, even though we never even went to trial.

Most engineers have "errors and omissions" insurance that should pay for this kind of thing, the problem is that the insurance companies are cheapskates and will want to get away with paying as little as possible.

To me, what you should start with is a letter from your lawyer to the engineering company and the contractor asking who is going to pay for the fix. This might cost a few hundred $, and might get the result you want which is a return letter accepting responsibility for the cost. To me that is a low budget start.

What you really don't want to happen is that a large amount of work is done without deciding who will pay the bill. In most states, whoever did the work can place a lien on your property if there is no payment. This situation can easily devolve into a very costly go-round of legal fees and litigation that will drain your bank account, no matter how robust it might seem at the beginning.

 

[MacLawn]

To me, this septic company should just come on out and fix this drain field. One day. That's all it'd take. A few hours, but call it a day. Our system was installed in Red Clay Country (as I call it) in Georgia, in August, 1975, and nary a problem in all those years. It was done right. Soil engineer way back then called for 300' of drain line. My septic tank man, he was great, also dug three 4x4 foot holes in the center if each line. He said that'd just give it extra drain area. He didn't charge me for those holes. Our area has this red clay, so not good percolating soil, but if done right, they work good.

If I were installing a new septic field, I'd use those dome hard plastic thingamajigs that don't need gravel. Water just goes under them and leaches into the soil and fills the cavity under the dome. I've seen those systems work in some awful places for septic fields.

Tell them boys to fix it right.

 

[spursjingles]

Try a realestate attorney. Hold the engineer responsible.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Start making your phone calls with a mouth full of marbles, you'll sound like a local, not a New Yorker...Tell the sub to rent a mini ex, it will fit through a 5 ft gate.

 

[jrdepew]

Start making your phone calls with a mouth full of marbles, you'll sound like a local, not a New Yorker...Tell the sub to rent a mini ex, it will fit through a 5 ft gate.

HA! Maybe I will give that a try.

Something my realtor said to me when I moved down here...

"You know the difference between a Yankee and a **** Yankee?......**** Yankees never leave!"

Got a call from the builder that they are lining up to fix the septic this week. He says they plan on R&R one fence post next to the gate to make an 8' opening, doing the fix, and bringing in a couple pallets of sod to fix what will most likely be chewed up from the excavator.

If history holds....when they say "this week" they mean sometime in the next 2 months :dance1:.

I will update and hope to get a bunch of pictures when they get to work.

-Joe

 

[spursjingles]

Just to clarify, this is your Grey Water system. Your Septic System is plumbed for human 'waste'.

Not true, infiltrators are designed to handle black and grey water combined in the same system.

 

[spursjingles]

Thanks for this...I am hoping they are separate and I had a major brain fart thinking this was the septic!

The one thing you don't want going into the septic system is the flush water for a water treatment system. It can actually plug up the field and harden the soil, not allowing proper drainage.

 

[jrdepew]

Update, finally....

The Septic company came out and did the fix prescribed by the engineering firm.

What they ended up doing was digging up all the soil between the two drain lines. This turned out to be a 4' wide trench, about 30' long. The digging was mostly sand for the first 2-3 feet where the current drain field exists. This is the clean fill that they had brought in when the system was first installed. The continued to dig down to about 4' deep or so. They started finding some small roots, some clay, etc. The penetrated into this layer for most of the 30' long trench. There was water gushing from both drain fields into the trench...they really appeared to be holding water just like a bathtub. You can see it in the picture below:



They then filled this whole excavation with rock, up to 12-18 inches from the top of the soil level. A third drain line was added to the entire length of this trench as well, spliced into the manifold pipe. The piles of soil were then spread out over the surface of the drain field, which was not a very deep layer, and smoothed reasonably well with the blade on the excavator.

Pic of the trench filled with rock:



I went out later that day, and picked out the large sticks from the newly spread dirt. The builder then had 2 pallets of sod delivered, and him and I layed sod over the excavated area.

The yard looked great...nice new sod. I wasn't talked to about money and I was never asked to pay a dime.

That was in February...

Fast forward to Friday 4/28...

The septic system is showing the same behavior as it did before. There is a new low spot in the system where water is now punching out, causing a stinky, spongy mess.

I call the builder, he comes right over. He calls the septic installer, which went to voicemail.

I talked to the builder this morning, and he said that the septic company responded and are going to send a guy out. I asked for an ETA and have not received one yet.

So, we are back to square 1

From my research, even if I had gotten an attorney the first time, I have to allow the contractor a chance to repair the issue...so it wouldn't have gotten me far.

I have contacted the engineer to get his assessment as well, no response as of yet.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[rd_macgregor]

That has to be a frustrating mess, for sure!

It sounds like there is a clay layer or something that is preventing the water from draining. The last round of improvement/upgrade, essentially created a "dry well", but a dry well without an "outlet" of some sort just becomes a bathtub full of rocks. Water either has to evaporate, drain away/run off or sink in. Your site doesn't seem to favor any of these paths. I hope the engineers can come up with a solution that actually works for you.

I've had chronic issues with drainage control from natural seeps and springs on my property; solutions I implement only seem to work for a few years, then nature relocates the problem!

Please keep us updated on progress.

 

[RNeumann]

Two things stand out. 1) my original comment above about getting below the clay. I'll follow up and say a perk test would be valuable at this point. 2) my spider senses were way up when I read 30' of leach line. That seems way to short. A typical 3/2 house with typical soil needs 150'-200' of leach line. You are way under 100'. Adding between the two existing lines doesn't add much. Their is a space requirement between lines- both for evaporation and leaching.

 

[CADplans]

It sounds like there is a clay layer or something that is preventing the water from draining. The last round of improvement/upgrade, essentially created a "dry well", but a dry well without an "outlet" of some sort just becomes a bathtub full of rocks. Water either has to evaporate, drain away/run off or sink in. Your site doesn't seem to favor any of these paths.

I was living in Charles City County, Virginia in the 1970's.
This was happening to dozens of homes. The septic systems had been built on clay.

After many attempts, the county had to pipe all the water away to a common processing area.

As an interim (for years!!) the county hauled the water each time the tank at each home filled.

All of that water is still treated,, and dumped into a local river.