New Septic System Troubles

[Will_C]

You need local code on the black water/gray water question. In NY and PA, they must into the same system. 30-40 years ago when I helped my dad install septic systems, he always would pipe gray directly into a dry well or sometimes a separate dry well-heck, at my mother's house there is dry well for the kitchen sink, one for the garage sink, and one behind the septic tank for bathroom waste. Of course dry wells aren't even allowed now....

Will

 

[longshot47]

Probably a little off original topic, but what I've learned about the black/grey water systems is that whether you use one [tank and drain field] or both [tank, field and grey water pit or cistern -preferred] its most likely the kitchen grease that will create problems. Grease flowing slowing [by code] to the tank cools and congeals creating issues in the main drain elbows, long runs and at the tank baffle. The grease that reaches the tank is, in 'normal' situations, pretty much offset by a healthy bacteria colony. The grey water dry well, if it catches kitchen/dishwasher grease, suffers eventual congestion, attributable to the high temperature of discharge water and the presence of detergents attacking bacteria. Most powdered clothes washer detergents compound the problem, regardless of which way they are directed.

 

[jenkinsph]

Probably a little off original topic, but what I've learned about the black/grey water systems is that whether you use one [tank and drain field] or both [tank, field and grey water pit or cistern -preferred] its most likely the kitchen grease that will create problems. Grease flowing slowing [by code] to the tank cools and congeals creating issues in the main drain elbows, long runs and at the tank baffle. The grease that reaches the tank is, in 'normal' situations, pretty much offset by a healthy bacteria colony. The grey water dry well, if it catches kitchen/dishwasher grease, suffers eventual congestion, attributable to the high temperature of discharge water and the presence of detergents attacking bacteria. Most powdered clothes washer detergents compound the problem, regardless of which way they are directed.

For the reasons you state I never hook up kitchen sinks to gray water systems. The water closets, kitchen sink are hooked to the black water, the showers, vanities and clothes washer are on the gray water.

People who run a lot of grease down the drains have to pay the piper sooner or later.

 

[tractorshopper]

And in thinking more about this, new construction in SC is not dictated by county, it is controlled by your local DHEC office, so I'm about certain even though I'm in a different county, the OP would have the same SC DHEC requirements that I do, so the grey and black water are combined in the septic and he has only one septic system.

Some people later split their washing machines and some gray water off into a pit that they install after the fact, primarily because they think the surfactants in the wash water cause issues with the bugs in the septic system, but DHEC doesn't allow this in new construction.

 

[GLyford]

I then had my friend come back and we dug up the field according to the as built drawings. We found out that not only were the drawings inaccurate but the type of system described was incorrect.

My as-built showed the correct tank and distribution box locations, but showed the field as a single line running 40' straight out. It even showed the wrong driveway location (front vs. actual end garage door).

My system was failing, and when they started checking, the d-box was worn out (concrete eaten through by microbial action at the air-water line after 30 years, apparently a common problem). It had two lines coming out, both parallel to the house, 9 feet apart. One had settled over time and was actually angled slightly uphill, so in effect I only had one 19' line.

Not a month earlier I had had a cement truck on the lawn just short of it (did not cause settling, wrong end). There is also an electric line run over it, because we were trying to avoid the system as marked on the as-built when we had it installed.

They replaced the box, ran an enzyme solution to break up the grease in the field, and added a 3rd line straight out.

My wife wants a pool, and had the surveyors from the pool company come out. They checked the town for the files...the septic company didn't file a new as-built for the location corrections and added line.

We are also a title-V state, where septics must be inspected, including d-boxes, before property can change hands. If they had inspected the box, they should have at least seen that there were two lines out and not one as in the town records when they pulled the cover.

All this to say: take any as-builts with a very large grain of salt.

 

[jrdepew]

My as-built showed the correct tank and distribution box locations, but showed the field as a single line running 40' straight out. It even showed the wrong driveway location (front vs. actual end garage door).

My system was failing, and when they started checking, the d-box was worn out (concrete eaten through by microbial action at the air-water line after 30 years, apparently a common problem). It had two lines coming out, both parallel to the house, 9 feet apart. One had settled over time and was actually angled slightly uphill, so in effect I only had one 19' line.

Not a month earlier I had had a cement truck on the lawn just short of it (did not cause settling, wrong end). There is also an electric line run over it, because we were trying to avoid the system as marked on the as-built when we had it installed.

They replaced the box, ran an enzyme solution to break up the grease in the field, and added a 3rd line straight out.

My wife wants a pool, and had the surveyors from the pool company come out. They checked the town for the files...the septic company didn't file a new as-built for the location corrections and added line.

We are also a title-V state, where septics must be inspected, including d-boxes, before property can change hands. If they had inspected the box, they should have at least seen that there were two lines out and not one as in the town records when they pulled the cover.

All this to say: take any as-builts with a very large grain of salt.

Thanks for this...I took one look at the as-built and knew it isn't exactly what is there...the pipe exit from the house isn't in the right place to begin with, and I am pretty sure the tank location is incorrect as well. I also think the tank is rotated 90 degrees from the as-built.

One would think that there would be a little more control over this as far as a marked up drawing being made during the install. It wouldn't be hard to pick one reference point on the house and pull a tape a few times...

Thanks,
Joe

 

[GLyford]

One complication with mine is the original as-built referenced a deck which is no longer there.

 

[Dirthog]

I know in Pa. they have to be inspected BEFORE they are backfilled and they MUST be where the drawings say because the inspector will check. I have been allowed to move a certain amount after talking with and showing the inspector why then the drawings have to be redone. Oh and in the case of a sand mound you have to have power and water in it so he can see if the piping and pump is working correctly.

 

[Wagtail]

Thanks for this...I took one look at the as-built and knew it isn't exactly what is there...the pipe exit from the house isn't in the right place to begin with, and I am pretty sure the tank location is incorrect as well. I also think the tank is rotated 90 degrees from the as-built.

One would think that there would be a little more control over this as far as a marked up drawing being made during the install. It wouldn't be hard to pick one reference point on the house and pull a tape a few times...

Thanks,
Joe

Unless you were there when any pipe/line was put in, I wouldn't trust a 'drawing'.

When I went to prepare the ground for my shed's pad, I called the "Dial Before You Dig" people. They emailed me their site plan for the buried phone lines... no drawing for buried power line but I 'knew' where that one was. Well, their drawing showed direct line-of-sight lines to myself and to 3 neighbours (one of which I know is "off-grid"). I called them up again and said that the drawings are wrong, especially as it indicated that one of the lines to my back-neighbour ran under my house.

They said that they would send someone out to re-sight the lines but if the original drawings were correct then I would have to pay for the survey. Well, I had to know for certain so I had them send someone (a contractor from Launceston). Yep, their drawings were a guestimate from 20+ years ago and the lines ran nowhere near where 'they' said they were. The bloke they sent even confirmed where my power line was.

Trust, but verify.

 

[jrdepew]

I know in Pa. they have to be inspected BEFORE they are backfilled and they MUST be where the drawings say because the inspector will check. I have been allowed to move a certain amount after talking with and showing the inspector why then the drawings have to be redone. Oh and in the case of a sand mound you have to have power and water in it so he can see if the piping and pump is working correctly.

Luckily, I have been burned by enough contractors/inspectors, that I don't trust much anymore. :dance1:

Septic guy had to re-schedule to sometime later this week due to Hermine blowing through close to Charleston on Friday...I will updated with what he says.

Thanks for all the info everyone!

-Joe

 

[jrdepew]

Just met with the Septic Company's guy. He brought a probe and started punching it down to see where the top of the gravel is. In most places the gravel is only about 6 inches deep. In a lot of the holes he punched air would rush out, and sometimes there was a gurgle of water.

He started talking about how I may need to get some pickup truck loads of dirt and a wheelbarrow and add some dirt to bring it up to 12". I didn't like where that was going, so I told him that I will be calling the builder about how we can make this right.

Does all this sound correct to you guys? It makes sense to me...the easiest path for water was to come up instead of percolate through the soil...

The house has a fence around it now...it didn't before. The gate is just shy of 5' wide, but I think that should allow them to get a skidsteer in there to move the dirt. It seems like this should be on the builder or septic company's dime, as there was never enough soil or they did nothing to prevent erosion and a bunch washed away. You can see that there was some old washout. At some point the builder planted rye which held the dirt in place. One of the first things I did was get seed and straw down to start getting grass going and prevent any erosion. About half the yard where the septic field is (the dryer part where the dirt is at or close to the proper depth), is covered in a nice stand of centipede grass...sucks that that will likely get ruined. Whatever equipment they need to bring in for grading will likely ruin some of the sod as well...

I am also afraid that they will bring in just enough dirt to build the questionable area up....and leave me with a steep grade going back into the woods behind the house. Right now there is a definite grade, but it is mowable and maintainable. I don't want to end up with a steep grade back there.

Questions for you all:

Who should be paying for this? The builder and/or septic company?

Will they replace any destroyed sod or re-seed my dirt? (I am not as worried about the re-seeding, but centipede seed is expensive stuff and I have a couple hundred dollars worth of seed/hay/fertilizer/etc back there that will likely get covered or ruined by machines)

What is a reasonable grade for them the leave the back of the property at if/when they bring in fill? I would like it to match what is currently there.

They cannot get a dump truck to the site, so the fill will have to be moved by people or machines...are they going to dump a large load of dirt on my sodded front lawn?

This is frustrating...

-Joe

 

[Leo Rabon]

I live in SC. Your problem may also be related to the amount of fall on the leach lines. If the soil "perks" normally you will have from 150 to 200 feet of leach lines in 40 to 50 foot links. If your installer did not shoot grades as he installed the leach lines to make sure that the water discharged from the septic tank was equally distributed to each of the leach lines individually with proper and "equal fall on each line" to the end of each line, you may have most of the discharge going to one line and therefore pressure pushing up the soil for that line. Proper installation of the leach lines is a make or break issue.

 

[tractorshopper]

No, my opinion only here, but why would there be any back pressure on your septic system. I have never experienced anything of the sort. Back pressure tells me that there is a blockage somewhere. Everything should flow easily. This is not a forced system. You flush, water goes to the tank, the tank releases clean spill to the perforated piping, the piping distributes the water to the leach field, it drains into the soil. No back pressure should exist.

I'm not an expert, but have pumped tanks and fixed some problems and anytime there is any type of back pressure at all, it has been a clog in my experience. Otherwise, things should be flowing very easily. I'd definitely get the builder involved. If you have any real problems with resolution, contact DHEC and let them help you get resolution.

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

I didn't like where that was going,

You are right to not like that. He wants to put a coat of paint on a collapsed house.

Does all this sound correct to you guys? It makes sense to me...the easiest path for water was to come up instead of percolate through the soil...

No, that's NOT right AT ALL. It was done wrong, plain and simple. It needs major $urgery to fix it.

It's lawyer time.

Who should be paying for this? The builder and/or septic company?

You need to ask a lawyer, not a bunch of guys on a forum.

Will they replace any destroyed sod or re-seed my dirt?

You need to ask a lawyer, not a bunch of guys on a forum.

This is frustrating...

It's going to be a lot more than frustrating if you don't stop dinking around with this. You need to get the local authorities involved and lawyer up, or you are cutting your own throat.

No, my opinion only here, but why would there be any back pressure on your septic system. I have never experienced anything of the sort. Back pressure tells me that there is a blockage somewhere. Everything should flow easily. This is not a forced system. You flush, water goes to the tank, the tank releases clean spill to the perforated piping, the piping distributes the water to the leach field, it drains into the soil. No back pressure should exist.

I'm not an expert, but have pumped tanks and fixed some problems and anytime there is any type of back pressure at all, it has been a clog in my experience. Otherwise, things should be flowing very easily. I'd definitely get the builder involved. If you have any real problems with resolution, contact DHEC and let them help you get resolution.

What he said. :thumbsup:

 

[thatguy]

tag for outcome..

What if you contacted the health dept.. i would think they should not have 'approved' it.. BUT not sure if that would go against the homeowner or builder or installer...

good luck

 

[dadster4]

The plumber who installed the septic system is a subcontractor for the builder. Since you already have a occupancy permit and are moved in, the builder is most likely not financially responsible for your problems, but should help you resolve things to protect his reputation. The plumber should be licensed and bonded, which means he is required to have an insurance bond for just this type of situation, and will ultimately be the party responsible to repair the system. A meeting should be arranged with the plumber, builder, and village inspector at your home to come up with the proper solution. From what I know about septic systems, adding topsoil above the leach field is pointless, if the perforated pipe is not pitched correctly and the proper amount of gravel is not UNDER and AROUND the pipe. If this approach does not resolve your problems, then and only then, should lawyers get involved. My guess is that, since the site was "built up" for both your home and septic system, some settling occurred and altered the pitch of the drain field.

 

[TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark]

You need to ask a lawyer, not a bunch of guys on a forum.

 

[jrdepew]

All,

Thanks for the help. I contacted the DHEC and engineer, and received this response from DHEC:

"It sounds like that after the system was installed that it has somehow sealed up and is not allowing air to move freely through the system. It could be caused by any number of things. The easiest fix may be to put some vents from the drain lines to the surface to allow air into the drainfield area. But there may be other issues as well. I would contact the engineer and discuss with him since he designed the system. Let me know if you have any other questions."

To me, it seems like the DHEC thinks there is an issue with the install as well.

I will get a hold of the engineer as well and relay his response.

I am not going to let anyone touch this thing until I get input from the engineer as well. I will try to arrange a meeting between the builder/septic/DHEC/Engineer at my place and see what happens.

I think that TemporaryKubotaOwnerMark is correct though...I am almost certainly going to need to contact a lawyer at this point ...there is no way I am letting them do some hack "fix" that will lead to a full tear-up in X years time well short of the life of a drain field.

Anyone have any input on how I go about finding a good lawyer?

Thanks,
Joe

 

[jrdepew]

All,

Another quick update...I talked to the engineer over the phone today. He says he can think of no reason why the system installed at my house would have a pressurized drain field, and that it is a definite issue. He says he is going to call the owner of the septic company and talk to him about the issue. He also said that they may want to come and take a soil sample to ensure the correct soil was used to build up the house site for the septic install.

In parallel I am thinking I will get the opinion of another septic company about what they think could be going on if one is willing to come out and take a look.

Trying to get all my ducks in a row and have as much information as I can before I contact a lawyer. The only way I see a lawyer not getting involved is if the septic installer comes and digs up the drainfield, finds and fixes the issue, and ensures that the tank/drainfield are installed as the system was designed.

I will keep you guys updated.

Thanks,
Joe

 

[Steppenwolfe]

Listen, I lived in SC for 25 years. NEVER assume your builder, or his subcontractor, know anything about what they do. I am not joking, I have never been in an area with such incompetence in the building trades. Get the engineer to figure it out, and get the builder to fix it. Otherwise, you will be fixing it when you go to sell the house, and it fails the septic certification.