Tractor Sizing New guy needs help sizing a tractor please

[DeWrecking Crew]

Greetings. I'll apologize in advance for not knowing what I'm doing. I know you guys probably get this same post 100 times a year, and I do apologize. I did look through as many posts as I could before posting, but I just didn't see answers to questions I had.

So the story is I just moved onto 20 acres, this will just be a homestead. I've cleared about 10 acres of it, the other 10 is mesquite brush. In the immediate foreseeable future my plans for a tractor would include site preperations for a 30X40 shop, a 25X40 garage, a 85X50 sport court, and a 20X40 outdoor kitchen/patio. We would also like to develope and maintain a one acre vegetable garden. Aside from that, there is lots of landscaping to do, so I will be moving dirt around, putting in big flagstone rocks for pathways, possibly putting in concrete sidewalks, ect. I will also need to maintain our dirt/gravel driveway which is about 1000' long. I do have a commercial zero turn mower, so I will most likely not be needing a shredder. One thing we would like to do but is not necessarily immediate is to buy some larger trees and transplant them to the property.

So here is my questions, and mind you, I know absolutely nothing about tractors. I can tell you that my general philosophy in life is to oversize everything. I think I have pretty much figured out from reading this forum and others that I need a utiliy tractor, and probably most likely a compact utility tractor. However, I can't figure out what size I need. A lot of what I need to get done in the beginning will require a backhoe. But I can't figure those things out, how much pto horsepower do you need to run a backhoe strong enough to dig the footings for a concrete foundation?

So, not knowing what I'm talking about, I'm thinking about getting around a 50 HP, 4WD with front end loader, box blade, auger, disc, and backhoe. But it seems like whenever I find a tractor with a backhoe they are tractors in the 25-35 hp range, is there a reason for this? Maybe that's all I need? I keep reading about a HST transmission, would this be the best choice for a novice? Can you even have a HST with a backhoe?

 

[mguitas]

Yes to the hst an backhoe, an:welcome:

 

[Kyle241]

You can find plenty of 40-50hp tractors with BH's. Perhaps the dealers you are visiting don't have a market for these :confused3: or it could be that a BH is an expensive attachment and some dealers don't wish to put their inventory dollars in an attachment they can readily order. My closest dealer only had the Kubota commercial TLB line with BH's: B26, L45 and M59. The others he had on the lot, not one had a BH and he had one of almost everything from 20hp-50hp. The dealer I ordered from (not my closest dealer) did have my MX5100 but not the BH so he ordered it.

To answer your question on size of tractor, yes you will need a utility tractor, not a compact and definitely 40-50hp is the target you want to look at. HST is a good choice for performing loader work and it is the easiest on a novice. Yes you can have HST with a BH (I have one) so no worries there. I'm assuming you are looking new? Based on all the attachments and depending on the make you are looking at between $35-45k (it can go higher depending on HP/brand/model).

Makes out there are Deere, Kioti, Kubota, Mahindra, New Holland and a few more. I personally like Kubota but many will argue their preferred brand so that is a personal choice. You need to look at closest dealers and then go sit on various brands/models, test drive some, ask a lot of questions of your dealer and speak to the service guy/gal as that is who you will deal with.

 

[murphy1244]

Find the dealers that are close to you. Pick four different makes and models that are close in HP and size. Get quotes from your four dealers and there you go.... Backhoes are not really a stocked item so don't be suprised that they have to order it. Most of all, Have fun.:
P.s. Fill out your data so the other guys can help you from your area.

 

[art]

Your area might not support as many 40 to 50 horsepower tractors to have a good used selection. I know for what we work with forty horsepower is where the backhoes slow down or are not commonly sold although some still do purchase them.

I normally look to find the most common thing that might be done with the tractor and then build it from that. You will do the greater part of the time with it and it should be the largest prioity in the set up of the tractor and will enhance the whole ownership of the tractor.

When you get the mesquite down will that ten acres also be mowed?? How often do you plan on mowing?

Often times TLB units are built and weighted for heavier construction like the Kubota B-26 or the L-series 35-39-45-48-59. These units also have larger hydralic systems to increase there production. Normally tractors in this range have about 1/2 the hydraulic systems that thee hybrid units do.

They do weigh more!!! This could be a disadvantage to you if you only use or need the backhoe for small chores. It would mean that to run the hydraulics would need more power as well as just to move the heavier chassis!

 

[bigbull338]

now im not trying to push this brand of tractor,but i have the MX5100 HST 4x4 with LA844 quicktatch loader.itll carry a backhoe an do the other things you would like todo.but you need to go to the dealers an sitt on the tractors an test drive a few of them.

 

[jenkinsph]

I suggest you look at a Kubota M59 tlb 59hp, this would be a good sized backhoe, easily removeable yet convenient to operate. This is much better than an add on backhoe for most tractors (it is all about the seat position). The smaller L45 and the Deere 110 are similar in size and what I have but I think the 60 hp size is better for most tractor work. Pallets of flagstone can be quite heavy and the small loaders don't stand a chance with them.


Where are you located? Sounds like the southwest.

 

[DeWrecking Crew]

Thanks for the replies, it is much appreciated...some things you guys said have caught my eye...

Often times TLB units are built and weighted for heavier construction like the Kubota B-26 or the L-series 35-39-45-48-59. These units also have larger hydralic systems to increase there production. Normally tractors in this range have about 1/2 the hydraulic systems that thee hybrid units do.

Thanks Art...Am I to understand that the TLB packaged tractors are more than just a marketing package? In other words, these TLB packages in fact do have larger hydraulic's and are weighted so that they are properly setup to do backhoe work? Does this mean eventhough I can find add-on backhoes for most tractors that I should really be looking for a TLB package because other tractors will struggle to do the work? Not knowing anything about tractors, the fact that a backhoe would require larger hydraulics than say an auger, box blade, or shredder makes sense to me. So if I find a tractor that I like that is not setup as a TLB, what features do I need to look for to make sure that a backhoe will work? What is the size of a standard hyraulic's system versus a larger?

Kyle241...you mentioned the HST is good for loader work. What about doing loader work makes a HST nice? I'm not sure I understand why the transmission plays an important part? I can see where transmission consideration would make sense for some applications such as something like plowing. I could see where the ability to set your tractor to go at a very slow crawl and still have power to the ground would be important. But I can't make the connection with a loader? Not questioning or arguing, I'm just ignorant.

Jenkinsph...you mention it's all about the seat position? Can you elaborate, do you mean just comfort wise with relation to the controls? Or are you talking about function, like not being able to see what you are doing, or it prevents the backhoe from full swings?

Thanks again guys

 

[KYDan]

Echoing some earlier posts check out your dealers, a good dealer reasonably close is a truly wonderful asset. Poke around on this website and check threads concerning different tractor brands, what they offer and associated problems. If you can, check the resale value of used tractors on the lot and see how different brands retain their resale value. I have a Kubota MX5100 HST, 4WD, LA844 Loader w/HD round back bucket, guide rod, quick attach, R4 tires, and other little niceties. I had a backhoe on my first Kubota, but didn't get one with this one. I found that most of my needs required more reach than the backhoes on farm tractors. I didn't order this one with rear remotes in order to save some cash. I wish I had. Don't scrimp on your attachments, get heavy duty stuff if you are going to be landscaping. A box scraper is almost indispensable for landscaping and it also provides rear ballast for you. With a loader 4WD and ballast in the rear tires is a must. Decide which tires are right for your needs (R1 Ag provide the best traction, but are hard on lawns, R4s, industrial provide less traction, but have a bigger footprint and are easier on lawns, Turf are great for lawn type work, but have limited functionality.) Check the weight, features, and reputation of all your implements and attachments, heavier is better. If you are going to mow lawn type ground, don't spend the money for a finishing mower, go with a zero turn, they perform better, mow faster, and give you a better looking cut. Rotary mowers aka brush hogs are great for mowing heavy stuff including small trees and bushes. Once again heavier is better and get one with at least a 90 HP gearbox rating if you are going to be mowing heavy brush. I am a big Kubota fan and love this tractor better than any I have owned before (6 in all). If comfort and amenities are important look at the Kubota Grand L series. That said, there are a lot of good tractors out there, John Deere, Massey Ferguson, et. al. Determine what your budget range is for everything that you want and work from that. Often companies will offer financing incentives such as low or no interest financing (Check and see if the financed price is the same as cash.), discounted package deals on implements and attachments and don't be afraid to haggle and shop other dealers for the same brand, however, a few hundred dollars for a closer dealer is generally money well spent. Talk to other owners about their tractor(s) and dealers. You can configure the models that you are considering on a lot of the brand websites and get an idea of cost, however, this is list and most dealers will discount the price considerably.

Good luck and enjoy the process, shop, shop, shop. If there are farm machinery shows close by go to them where you can see different brands and what they have to offer. I don't know where you live, but the National Farm Machinery Show in Louisville, KY. is coming up starting February 15th. It is the largest indoor show of it's type in the world. If you can manage it is a great show with myriad exhibits and it's all indoors. Big indoor tractor pull too if you a fan although tickets are hard to find. National Farm Machinery Show

 

[jenkinsph]

When I say it is all about the seat position I am referring to digging a trench for instance. It is much easier to move the machine up and down the trench if you can reach the steering wheel and loader joystick easily. Some of the add on backhoe attachments require you to climb down from the backhoe seat and walk around to the tractor seat to move the machine. That can be a real pain. In some cases you can use the backhoe to walk the tractor up the ditch but not always.

I have a 110tlb with a Laurin cab, the seat flips over for operating the backhoe, it is close enough I can reach over and operate the fel joystick to position the bucket and also turn the steering wheel. With the creep to reposition controls at the backhoe position I can easily move the tractor around without leaving the backhoe seat.

I also have a 4520 cab tractor which could have a rear mounted backhoe attachment. You would have to climb down and get in the cab to move it each time, not near as convenient.

Just want to bring this to your attention so you can see the advantages to buying either a 110tlb or an M59tlb as both of these are a better design. Whether you opt for a cab or not just be aware that Laurin does offer a good aftermarket cab for these machines. I suggested the M59 because it is slightly larger and a good overall machine for your intents and purposes.
The 110tlb is a great machine too but production ceased last year and it was 43hp. Shopping used they are available. The Kubota M59 is currently in production and gets my vote.

 

[Kyle241]

Kyle241...you mentioned the HST is good for loader work. What about doing loader work makes a HST nice? I'm not sure I understand why the transmission plays an important part? I can see where transmission consideration would make sense for some applications such as something like plowing. I could see where the ability to set your tractor to go at a very slow crawl and still have power to the ground would be important. But I can't make the connection with a loader? Not questioning or arguing, I'm just ignorant.

Jenkinsph...you mention it's all about the seat position? Can you elaborate, do you mean just comfort wise with relation to the controls? Or are you talking about function, like not being able to see what you are doing, or it prevents the backhoe from full swings?

Thanks again guys

DeWrecking_Crew, the HST is nicer when doing loader work because of all the back and forth movement. No gear changing necessary and your leg will get tired if you are doing a lot of earth, gravel moving, etc. I agree for tillage work, gear tends to be the better solution however HST works decently.

I can also respond to your question to Jenkinsph concerning the Kubota commercial TLB's. Their seat positions are such that it's one seat, can easily swivel facing forward or backwards and the deck is open (at least on the L45 and M59, not sure about the B26). These commercial TLB's are great machines (Deere used to make the 110) and definitely are beefier but come at a price. There is a premium to all the bells and whistles they have along with the greater breakout force, etc. I used to have a Kubota B20 (predecessor of the B21/B26) and it was a little tank at only 20hp. It was however not the best for PTO work (IMHO) so while I looked hard at upgrading to the L45, I chose an MX5100 with BH that I feel better suits the additional tillage work I am now doing. Still love the L45 but it was also $6-7k more in price.

Bottom line is you should list your dealers, visit each, talk to the salespeople and service. Take a long look at models as there are a lot out there. Determine what your top requirements are, e.g. mowing, bush-hogging, loader work, BH work, etc. It will help you decide.

 

[DeWrecking Crew]

Thanks again for the responses. It seems everybody is putting emphasis on finding a good dealer. Which has brought up a couple of questions. Are these tractor dealers not like car dealers? If I bought a John Deere, can't I take it to any JD dealer for service or is that not how it works? Why is the dealer being close by a necessity? On that note, I have two dealers fairly close by (within 30 miles), a Kubota dealer who looks like it is strictly Kubota for tractors and another dealer who offers several brands...Mahindra, Zetor, and MF. There is also a JD dealer about 50 miles away. When you talk about being close by, is this close by, or do you mean that you don't want one that is several hundred miles away, which I can understand?

I've started to look at the dealer's websites that are close by and have noticed that they sale used tractors as well (at a considerable savings). I know this is probably a very ignorant question, but how many hours is considered a lot of hours on a tractor. If you told me a car has 100,000 miles on it, I'd pretty much know where I stand with that car. But when you tell me the tractor only has 2000 hours on it, I have no idea if that is good or bad. What is the equivalent of 100,000 miles in tractor world? And what would be the equivalent of "all highway miles" in tractor world, if it was just used as a shredder would that be considered light work?

 

[KYDan]

A closer dealer is a plus for myriad reasons. 1st if you buy the tractor from him he will answer your questions, provide useful suggestion, etc. if he is a good dealer. However, he is a businessman and he isn't going out of his way if you didn't buy it from him. Also, if you have to have him pick it up he will be more inclined to do it at a reduced or possibly no cost if under warranty if something requires this. If you didn't buy it from him mostly likely your service will be on a roundtuit basis. One of my very good friends is a Kubtota and a John Deere dealer, I didn't buy either one of my tractors from him due to distance. I bought both of them from a dealer 10 miles from my home.

You can find used tractors with 2,000 hours that are in great shape if they have been maintained properly and conversely one with 500 hours that may have issues due to improper maintenance and care. Tractors are tough and built to be used hard, but not doing basic service and maintenance at the prescribed intervals can cause real issues later on. I have had tractors with 4,000 + hours that were still in good shape, ran fine, and still had a lot of life. I have also seen ragged out ones with only 1500 hours. Don't let shiny paint fool you on a used tractor they may not be as mechanically sound as some with faded paint. However, if a tractor is sharp looking it is generally a sign that the former owner took good care of it.

How the used tractor is priced is usually a good indicator of its condition. I sold my 15 year old Kubota L2900 for half the original purchase price. I took good care of it (I did use it hard) and stored it indoors. It had 1600 hours on it and looked almost new.

 

[Samandothers]

I have a Kubota L4240 HST with front end loader and backhoe. I needed the tractor for bush hog, grapple and other reasons than backhoe. However, I wanted the backhoe for digging out trees, culverts, leveling ground and footings for building. The back hoe attachment has served me well and yes to move it I have to get off back hoe and move to drivers seat.The implement is easy to add and remove. I did not need the backhoe for enough work to feel like I should purchase the backhoe with single seat.

The HST is great when doing loader work. It is handy in tight places in woods. I is also hand for using the grapple and bushhoging near edge of woods.

If you think you'd add a grapple later on you may want to look at getting the third function valve and having the hydraulic port added to the loader. Some will use rear remotes for grapples, but I like having the grapple control on the loader control lever.

 

[k0ua]

Having owned 2 gear tractors and 2 Hydrostat tractors over a period of 20+ years I can help a little here. For Loader work the Hydro cannot be beat, the level of control is just so much more especially for a new person, but even for a veteran it is just so much easy to maintain your level when grading with the bucket, and is so much safer when working with people near the tractor as in setting stones, and is safer when working close to buildings. Not to mention the fact your left leg will thank you at the end of the day. A hydro has infinite speed adjustment from 0 to what ever the top speed is in a particular range and throttle setting. So say you need to go .0001234 MPH when setting a rock on top of another with your pallet forks with a person in front of the tractor trying to guide you, well with a hydro you can go .0001234 MPH, but with a gear tractor, you are trying to feather the clutch and the throttle to hit the approximate speed to get the job done..Not saying you cannot do it, it is just a lot harder. Also when you hop on your shiny new XYZ (brand) hydro equipped tractor, you and your wife and your son and your dog are going to be able to operate it almost immediately, without a learning curve, (or a much reduced one). So yes I am a big hydro proponent to the point of being obnoxious. But I have owned and operated both for many years, and since I mostly do loader work I will never own anything else. There are many upsides to a hydro tractor, now like everything else in life there has got to be some downsides.
1: cost.. hydro's cost more. (recouped in resale value)
2: Hydro's "eat power" yep 5 to 10 percent power lost in the hydro.
3: Hydro's make more heat (see lost power above) Yep they have extra radiators to dissipate this heat. Power loss has to go somewhere.
4: Hydro's make a whining sound especially when loaded heavily . Yes it is true. It sounds a lot like a "bobcat skid loader working"
5: Hydro's are so easy to operate that everyone will want to "borrow" your tractor. Yeah you cannot say that they will never figure out the gear system and therefore cannot borrow your tractor.. anyone can operate the hydro with about 2 minutes of instruction.

All the negative things people say about hydro is all true.

The positives so far outweigh the negative it is not even worth mentioning. In my opinion.

I have a Kubota, but if I were you, I would look hard at a Kioti DK40SE HST or a Kubota MX5100HST . The Kioti is a little more upscale, the Kubota more standard tractor but more horsepower and a lot of bang for the buck. Good luck in whatever you buy:thumbsup:

James K0UA

 

[DeWrecking Crew]

Thanks guys, lots of useful info. I think I'm beginning to understand a little more...most of what we have been talking about and the differences is about ease of operation and use. In other words the HST is nice because it is easier and faster to operate the machine. The TLBs are nice because the seat is more convenient to move the machine around. Finding a close dealer is nice because it will make working with them easier and more pleasant, ect, ect...Is there anything that would be a catostraphic failure with a purchase? In other words, when I look at all these adds, some of them say "live independant pto" which leads me to believe that some tractors would not have this option? I'm guessing for most implements you want a "live" pto eventhough I'm not sure what the **** that actually means, but in my mind, something is telling me I want that. I also see lots of ads talking about remotes, which I also assume has to do with running the implements? With you guys knowing what my plans are with the tractor, do I need a live pto and do I need remotes, if so, how many remotes do I need?

I will eventually get around to actually going to the dealers and poking around and asking questions. But I'd like to have a little knowledge beforehand so that I don't get taken for a ride and come home with a $60K rig when a $30K rig would have been all I would ever need or want. I fear if I go in there with these basic questions they will smell the blood in the water. Thanks again for all the help.

 

[IndyIan]

Just watch buying a used tractor with a backhoe. It needs to have the proper subframe on the tractor to mount the hoe on. A decent size hoe just on a 3 pt hitch on a 40-50hp tractor is a hoe waiting to break the toplink off. The sales guys may not agree but I think most guys here do.
I passed on a Kubota L2950 with a 3pth hoe because it looked like it had been used commercially and everything was pretty loose.

If you have no Kioti dealer nearby I'd second the MX5100 suggestion, probably to get a used one, you won't find one with the hoe but maybe a dealer will work with you on not paying MSRP for one if your buying a tractor from him.

If you do have a Kioti dealer nearby, price one out, for loader work and most things you are doing, I think a DK40\45\50 will keep up with a MX5100.
The Kioti's also have many of the kubota options, standard, although a MX5100 isn't a basic model either.

Also you might want to get a box blade for leveling large areas. I suspect it might be as fast as breaking dirt up with a backhoe and then moving it with the loader, unless you get something like the M59. I suspect an M59 is like owning a F550, very good at its intended purpose but not so handy for a variety of tasks.

 

[k0ua]

This is a pretty simple, easy to understand explaination of the types of PTO's

TractorData.com - Power Take-Off


James K0UA

 

[DeWrecking Crew]

Thanks for the link k0ua, from reading that, a transmission controlled pto sounds like a bad idea. Seems like it would put a lot of stress on the tractor's drive train. I would prefer to have an independant, but I'm guessing that's when the dollar signs start adding up?

Indy...I looked up Kioti, the closest dealer is 99 miles, is that too far or would that be considered average in tractor world?

With every post I learn something new, Indy you just posted to make sure the tractor has the proper sub-frame for a backhoe? So outside of asking the dealer, how do I figure out if a tractor has the proper subframe? And on top of that, what the **** is a subframe? Are these secondary frames that fit over the top of the primary frame?

Also, when you say

A decent size hoe just on a 3 pt hitch on a 40-50hp tractor is a hoe waiting to break the toplink off.

By toplink do you mean the top arm of the 3-point hitch?

 

[k0ua]

If you buy a HST equipped tractor it will probably have an Independant PTO

As you change directions and slow and stop the movement of the tractor the PTO and your attachment keep on running. Some are mechanical engagement (clutch) and some are electrical/hydraulic.

A subframe for a backhoe is heavy duty metal pieces bolted on to the frame of the tractor, and the backhoe fastens onto the rigid subframe not carried on the 3 point hitch of the tractor.

James K0UA