Neophyte buying a tractor needs help.

jd2210 · Aug 16, 2004

If you are looking at a Jinma I strongly recommend doing as much homework as possible on their shortcomings. I'm NOT saying to not get one, I'm just saying look into them so you know what you are getting. Often times dealers try to sell them against new green, blue and orange which is wrong. They should presented as what they are, a viable competitor to a used compact tractor. They have the same technology as a 15 year old JD or Kubota, which is not a bad thing (in a way good becasue of ease of repairs). But do not convince yourself that they are a new compact substitute and that a head to head comparison of them can be made by placing the specs sheets beside each other.
Also look at other factors like "will my Jinma dealers be a Jinma dealer in 10 years?" And "what will my Jinma be worth in 10 years versus the others?"
This is not intended as shot to the product but make sure you are comfortable with your decision before you buy. Everything is easy buy, some things are hard to sell.

froggy · Aug 16, 2004

Geoff,

This is another site where you can see retail pricing on various tractors and might be helpful:
http://www.dot.state.mn.us/equipment/contracts/

Where exactly are you located in SE AZ? Would you be closer to Las Cruces than Tucson? If I remember right, there are Kubota, New Holland and John Deere dealers there. Don't know anything about them other than seeing them.

Doyle

at_obuk · Aug 16, 2004

Don't forget the insurance side of owning for business. Your home owners will not cover for commercial use. Better check your insurance for what you carry on your trailer.
Just adding some of the hidden costs to be considered.
Good luck on what ever your choice.
Going to Sedona soon for vacation, love those red rocks!!

Eric P.

MicroPilot · Aug 16, 2004

( HI :

Not sure if I can help much but thought I'd add my two cents worth too:

you may as well take a good look at the century (JINMA brands= farmpro, nortrac et all look under links in the china forum for John S's web site he has large dealer links page.).....)

HUH??

Century has nothing to do with Jinma. Century (and Branson) tractors are manufactured by Kukje in South Korea.

Libertine · Aug 17, 2004

Desertdog:

 . . . desperate need of someone that can grade a few driveways (particulary after the monsoons), dig a few trenches, move some dirt and gravel, grub a few mesquites, grade future homesites, landscape, install drip irrigation, plant a few trees, dig footers (I build stone homes/walls), etc. I can get a about $50/hr to do this work. 

If you are serious about going into business, as opposed to picking up an odd job here and there, respectfully suggest you contemplate the following:

1) Forget your $17k budget - $25k/$30k more like it at a minimum.
2) At $50 hr., one extra day waiting on parts from an off brand will cost you $400. Stick with NH, JD or KUB. Cheaper in the long run.
3) Get quick detach (skid steer compatable) on FEL arms - allows use of pallet forks (handy for moving rocks, tree trunks, etc that won't fit in the loader bucket) & many, many skid steer implements and only takes seconds to change front implements.
4) Go with rollover box blade - costs 3 times as much but allows much more flexibility - ripping/grading/dozing separate and can switch from one to other with one pull of a lever.
5) Forget a subCUT or even a smaller CUT. For what you say you want to do, go with a larger frame size (NH TC35 & up, KUB 38xx & up, etc.).
6) Hydraulic pump drives FEL & BH. 10 GPM and up reasonable.
7) Remember, "rated" capacity (lift, etc.) in theory (on paper) is accurate, but "working" may be less.

Good luck.

JEH

jd2210 · Aug 17, 2004

Bang on Libertine, I applaud you.

JayC · Aug 17, 2004

I'll have to agree with Libertine's suggestions. They make a lot of sense. Also, I would suggest something like a John Deere 110 or Kubota L48. These are much more rugged than a typical CUT. The backhoes are removable so you can use a 3PH for other purposes. The FELs, however, are not removable. One thing I like about the 110 is the "creep-to-reposition" feature. If you are digging a trench or the like, you can move the machine from the backhoe station. I'm not sure about the Kubota models, but the JD can have a hydraulic thumb for the hoe which would be good for grabbing rocks. Backhoe buckets come in pin-on and quick couple (quick couple required for thumb). It has an anti-spill mechanism. You can also get an 84" heavy-duty hydraulic boxblade. Top & Tilt would would be handy for that. I only elaborate on the 110 because I have the brochure sitting right here. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

John Deere 110TLB

Kubota L48

Good luck in your search! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dave___in___CT · Aug 17, 2004

Original poster say...

"I will compete/help out 2 large backhoe operators that are too busy to be concerned with customer relations and leave too large a footprint to do some of the more delicate work. "

...too large a footprint...

Bigger is not necessarily better...
A CUT can do nitch jobs the commercial backhoes can not do... and some they also can do... but at a slower pace...

Example...
A guy who owns an excavating business hired me & my Deere 750 CUT to dig trenches in dirt basement of an already framed home(his home in fact)...
The 750 was small enough to fit thru the double-door walkout... and could operate the backhoe even with the 1st floor done...

Dave...

SPIKER · Aug 17, 2004

Micropilot"

sorry the typing didn't transferfrom brain to paper to well there, yes, centery and branson are not jinmas, I meant to check on all of them, as an alternative to what people are offering, they are saying he can't get what he wants for 17K that is absolutly wrong, others are saying that the jinmas and or other "lower cost imports" are old tech, actually they have cutting edge tech in them, with dirrect injection diesles, which should run for 10,000 hrs. if maintained. sure they have some rougher castings & gear drive straight cut gears, so do all those old fords ! most of them are still going strong,

, but that does not mater to me or to anyone who will routinly drive their machine through a rock garden... the JINMAS have higher ground clearance than most CUTs. not sure about the centurys/bransons ect/ et all: As for that you have to spend 25~35K and then you won't have to wait for parts, hell for that much you can buy 2 JINMAs and if one breaks you have a spare! you can but enough spare parts to totally rebuild the thing from ground up for about 2K with the tractor purchace! and never have to worry then... as for them having problems, true, you do usually have to do you're own maintenance, but the gentelman already stated he has no dealers with in 100 or so miles, that means he probably would have ot fix things him self regardless, so some OLD easy to work on tech would be better than a NEW greene one which will require dealer servicing or else void the warrenty... sometimes you just have to get dirty.

anyhow I just wanted to offer him other options which would meet his criteria...

mark m /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Libertine · Aug 18, 2004

JayC:

I would suggest something like a John Deere 110 or Kubota L48. 

I was going to suggest those too, but that puts him WAY over his "budget." The KUB L35 might be an option though, but probably still over $30k. These are "pocket" BHs. Myself, don't like the lack of ability to remove FEL though.

JEH

Libertine · Aug 18, 2004

Dave_in_CT:

The 750 was small enough to fit thru the double-door walkout... and could operate the backhoe even with the 1st floor done... 

Ooooo. With great delicacy I hope. How about a Goldoni or BCS Hercules with a BH???

JEH

jd2210 · Aug 18, 2004

SPIKER
I feel as if I should respond to your post since it is obviously a shot a mine. At no point was I saying JINMA's were not an option. I was saying they are lower tech and that can be a good thing but the buyer should know that. Direct injection does not make a tractor high tech. Wheel bearings, rocker arms, castings, wiring harnesses, steering boxes etc are older tech on the JINMA's. Does that transfer into more breakdowns? NO. Is it better for doing your own repairs? absolutely. I have buddy with 2 JINMAs and likes them just fine. He actually bought 2 for the spare parts you mentioned. It is important to note though that not all parts will be tranferrable. His first tractor was batch built before the second and has a different engine (they come with 3 different ones, 1 optional) and he neglected to think about things like seals etc.
What I was wanting to point out was that if it is being used for commercial purposes it will be getting more hours. More hours means more wear and tear. More wear and tear means he will not be likely to keep the same tractor for the rest of his life. UIf he will sell it at some point he needs to think about resales. If he is really looking at a business plan TCO is more important than initial cost.
IMO if you are going to use it yourself as an estate tractor and 100hours a year on it a JINMA will last a life time. If you have customers depending on you and are putting 600hours a year on it you may want to rethink your options. I'm not trying to start a big controversy, just haven't seen a lot of successful contractors using JINMAs

Desertdog · Aug 19, 2004

Libertine,

I appreciate all your comments and have taken all into consideration. I am serious, but because I live in a rural area I expect this endeavor to be somewhere between a part-time job and "odd job" type work. I expect to work the machine in the neighborhood of 400 hrs/yr. 600 would be grand.

Digesting all the comments in this forum I have realized I will not be able to accomplish everything I would like, not initially at least. I now understand that there are some jobs a CUT cannot accomplish. My thinking now is more along the lines of Dave in Ct. The footprint of something like the L4300 is not much different than the backhoes that currently operate the area. Ideally I would like to crawl through small places and leave a small impact.

I want a versatile, maneuverable, powerful CUT that can get in and out of tight spaces. When I run into jobs too big for the CUT - I will call the big guys in. Eventually I could evolve the business and get some larger used equipment, which seems more readily available in my area than CUTs.

I looked at both Kubota and NH. Unfortunately NH was well overpriced and I was not impressed with the dealers understanding of my needs. Although I really liked the layout of the TC24/TC29 series. WIth my budget I will not be able to afford all these bells and whistles.

TC24DA - 9x3 $16,300
TC24D HST - $17,445
TC30 - $16,700
TC30 HST - $18,000

These prices are for the tractor - no implements. From what I have seen on the internet these prices are extremely high. Regional pricing differences are huge!

The Kubota dealer on the otherhand understood my needs and seemed more willing to deal. They too initially thought more alone the lines of Libertine and wanted me to go big - but they are also salespeople and are supposed to convince you to go big (I was one for 18 years so I understand)

I looked at the BX23 out of curiosity and was impressed with this tight little machine. The price was competitive @ $17,200. Unfortunately the ground clearance issue scared me and I would like some more HP. My current target around 30hp.

They can put a package together for an L2800 with FEL and BH for $21,000 and I could probably talk them down a few thousand, but I am pretty firm at doing this for $17,000 or preferrably less. I am more inclined to go used if I go Kubota.

The local Jinma guy was working out of his home. Probably receiving crates from China and putting them together in his backyard. I just turned around and drove back home.

Finally I have contacted a Kioti dealer and received the following prices, all with FEL and BH.

CK20HST - $17,000
CK25HST - $19,250
LK3054XS - $19,450

Unfortunately this is about 1100 miles from my home. I would love to get on a Kioti but can't find a dealer anywhere near me.

My next course of action is to firm up some prices on the L2800 package, find a Kioti somewhere, and hit the road for a few days checking out some other NH dealers and some of the used tractors I have uncovered on ebay.

This is logical - right???? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

jd2210 · Aug 19, 2004

IMO you are well on your way to making a smart decision.

I worry thought that a CK20 may not have the juice you require. It's not a SubCUT but is only 20HP. Did the Kioti prices include the 0% or were they using the rebate? /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Mahindra may be worth checking out too. I've only seen them never rode but have heard positive things and are a company very dedicated to success in the USA.

shoppintractors · Aug 19, 2004

I worry thought that a CK20 may not have the juice you require. It's not a SubCUT but is only 20HP. 

CK20 is 21HP.

Don

Desertdog · Aug 19, 2004

Found a Kioti dealer in Az. Mahindra dealer in Albequerque and a used TC25 equiped as needed in Oklahoma. I guess I'm hitting the road. Any comments on the TC25 for my needs?

KiotiJohn · Aug 19, 2004

( Found a Kioti dealer in Az. Mahindra dealer in Albequerque and a used TC25 equiped as needed in Oklahoma. I guess I'm hitting the road. Any comments on the TC25 for my needs? )
For the price difference, I'd go with the CK30 or the CK20. I use the CK20HST every day, and it does a great job of all the jobs I put it through. The CK25 is only 4 more HP, and a larger frame, so I think the difference in the CK30 would be more advantageous. Or the LK3054XS would probably be the right one. More HP, but not a huge tractor, would get into the smaller spaces and still have plenty of power for larger implements. The new layout of this model is excellent as well, and it has a shuttle shift gear transmission which is very easy to use.
Don't get me wrong, the CK25 that I tried out seemed to be plenty powerful, and would do the jobs you want to do, but the 3054 would, for sure, give you what you need.
The price is less than $3,000 more than I paid for my CK20HST except that I also got the boxblade. Go try one out, and I mean try it out. Have them put some implements on it like a boxblade, and go dig some dirt. Use the loader, maybe cut some grass with a rotary mower. You'll find any of these tractors very utilitarian and strong. John

JayC · Aug 19, 2004

On whatever machine you decide on in the end, one attachment you will probably want to invest in is a toothbar. I don't remember if it has already been mentioned but it can/will save you alot of time when doing FEL work in hard soil or the like. Also, I still recommend the LK3054XS. It might be a smidge over your budget, but in the end I think you will be very pleased with the machine. A slightly used LK3054 would probably be within the budget. The TLB package comes with the ROPS/FOPS canopy, beefed up FEL and hoe designed for the machine. You might also consider getting some hooks welded on to the bucket in case you need to drag anything around. Good luck! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

KiotiJohn · Aug 19, 2004

Did you see the LK3054 for sale by ChrisW in the classifieds?
He's asking $15,500 with loader and a bunch of attachments. In Ohio. It's not the new XS model, but it's a heck of a tractor. Here's the link:
LK3054

Libertine · Aug 20, 2004

Desertdog:

TC24DA - 9x3 $16,300
TC24D HST - $17,445
TC30 - $16,700
TC30 HST - $18,000

These prices are for the tractor - no implements. From what I have seen on the internet these prices are extremely high. 

extremely, extremely high. I paid $16k for a TC40 a year ago. Included a number of options (guage package, etc., etc.). Regarding so-called "footprints", a CUT may take up a certain amount of ground area, but is easier to manuever. I'll stick with the suggestion to get something around 3,000 lbs M/L (tractor weight).

Regarding pricing, I was never able to find wholesale (dealer cost) price guides (like you can for autos). But I would think it has to be around 75%-80% of "list" (whatever "list" is!). Any comments from some of the dealers???????? If it's something on the lot, and you can figure out what the dealer paid for it, I would think you can buy it for cost plus $2k/$2.5k max, certainly if its a cash deal.

JEH