Need Help, Lights, I must be dummer than most

Freds · Feb 8, 2005

I spoke with my dealer and he said that BXs have a two light factory option from Kubota and the L just a one light. That's why the different amperage plug that's already available for use. I don't know the wattages or amperage draws of the factory lights and I find it odd that they would offer different light kits.
My dealer suggested that I contact Kubota again and this time write down the person's name if I wire it according to them... just in case. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif , but he also said that if I heard it from the factory then it must be OK.... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I would like to utilize the fusebox and it would of course cut down on the amount of wire rather than running a line from the battery, but we'll see. No hurry. Jury's still out.

Curt, it's nice to read that you are running two 55 watt lights off of the factory 7.5a plug without problem. Makes using a 15a fuse to run four sound more feasible.

surfran · Feb 8, 2005

If you indeed have a 40-60 amp alternator as Curt stated the 3130's have, I would say you should be all set running 4 lights. You could run the power wiring several ways depending on what is easiest for you and how you want your lights to work.

Myself I would use 2 circuits probably with an individual switch for each separated for front and back lights.

You are more than welcome to question Kubota with the information I provided. It is as simple as 55w * 4 = 220w.

220w/ 12v = 18.33 amps

I think you just received a more generalized statement from them without them much thinking about the number of lights you were running.

Good luck with your install. I know the lights are a godsend in the Winter while moving snow! I take mine off for Summer as daylight is much later and when it gets dark I want to sit back with a cold one /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Freds · Feb 8, 2005

I think I was so in awe that they called (plus a little busy at work) that I just said "you sure it's OK to run 4-55w lights from the fusebox with a 15amp fuse? OK."
I wish I had gotten into wire size with him also, but I did mention using a relay and he said one wasn't needed.

Does the size of the alternator have anything to do with the size of the fuse used? I mean... if Curt is drawing 9.16 amps from his two lights off a 7.5 amp circuit... what gives? Can a larger alternator overcome less than ideal circuitry? Would it make a difference as to the length of time the lights are actually on?

By what I am gathering so far I may just run two forward lights from the existing plug so they come on with the headlights and run a separate circuit from the fusebox for the rear two.

I love all these different roads to reach a common goal... getting more darn light, but I really appreciate all the opinions and methods because I'm learning something from it all.

Bob_Skurka · Feb 8, 2005

If you indeed have a 40-60 amp alternator as Curt stated the 3130's hav 

Standard size alternator on the L3130 is 40amp. Freds should have enough amperage to run all 4 lights. If it was me, I would run 2 circuits of 2 lights each and run a relay on each of the 2 circuits to take the load off the switches. I'd also make sure I used water proof marine grade components, they typically only cost a little bit more but they make sense to use on a tractor that might occasionally sit outside or get rained on.

shoppintractors · Feb 8, 2005

So, 4-55 watt lights take 18.33 amps and you have a 40 amp alternator. The tractor using the factory lights would need to use less than 21.67 amps to maintain a positive charging situation for the battery?? How many "factory" amps does the 3130 draw??

Don

Bob_Skurka · Feb 8, 2005

Don, I'll admit to not knowing the answer, but I suspect that in real world terms it really doesn't matter if there is a positive charge or if there is a very small negative drain. Presume there are 4 55-watt lights as the headlamps. Also presume there are a couple tail lamps of lower wattage. Also presume there are 2 forward 55-watt lights and 2 rear facing 55-watt lights that Freds adds to his L3130. Now logically one would not be operating both the forward facing and the rearward facing auxilary lamps at the same time. So again, using some level of logical operating, Freds might have 4 55watt headlamps (I'm guessing that is what he has) plus he has 2 55watt aux lamps, plus he has a some tail lamps, the total draw would be less than 40 amps, it would likely be in the low 30's depending on exactly how much power the tail lamps draw, the combined draw of the 6 55watt lamps would be right about 28 amps.

Now if he was running in reverse, and he had his headlamps on and 2 rear facing aux lamps, he'd use exactly the same amperage, again likely to be in the low 30's.

Then there are those possible times when he would run all 4 aux lamps (presume all 4 were facing forward) his draw from his 4 stock headlamps PLUS his draw from his 4 aux lamps would be just under 37 amps. Add a few amps for the tail lamps and he might be up to 42 or 43 amps on a 40amp alternator.

Unless Freds is planning on doing the vast majority of his tractoring when owls are out hunting prey and vampires have left their lair, then the minimal negative draw would never be noticed in real life terms. Under a typical CUT user, which might include 50 to 100 hours a year of use, and when probably 90% of that is done during daylight hours, the likelyhood that there would be any real life negative effects are virtually nil.

I think it is probably more important to consider real life circumstances than it is to look at some of the technical minutia that some folks often get hung up on. There are plenty of guys here on TBN driving around with little Kubota BXs that have added far more electrical draw than their alternator can replenish, yet they don't report problems. Why? Simply because the majority of their operating hours are daylight hours and those few moments when they drive around at night create an insignificant real world draw down on their electrical system, while their daylight hours of operation regenerate the minor draw down they might have done when they operated at night for 30 minutes over the past month.

JMHO. Then again, I've admitted I'm not an electrical expert, nor am I a rocket scientist. I sell candy to kids, it doesn't take a lot of brains to do that, so I don't claim to be too bright. But I'm bright enough to figure out simple real world electrical cause & effect situation.

shoppintractors · Feb 8, 2005

Thanks Bob,

It does appear there are some limitations. Not quite carte blanche. It would be a shame if someone plowed snow for many hours with all the lights on and inadvertently discharged the battery.

Thanks for shedding some additional light on the subject. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Don

Bob_Skurka · Feb 8, 2005

Don, yes there are SOME limitation. But it would take many hours with all 8 lights running to cause any real issues, and it is very likely that one of those idiot lights on the dashboard would light up to warn the user that his battery was at a critical level. Simply shutting down a pair of them would resolve the problem, if in fact it ever got to that point. There is a thread in the JD forum where a guy running a fairly small JD was powering several 55watt lights and his battery drain light never lit up. Again, the practical application based on the way MOST people use there tractors is that there is minimal real life risk. Sort of like crossing the street in the middle of the block. . . most of us know we are supposed to cross at the corner because it is safer, but most of us do it anyway and never suffer any ill consequences because of it.

shoppintractors · Feb 8, 2005

If your alternator/battery light comes on, is it telling you the alternator is not charging or is it telling you the battery is dead?

Simply shutting down a pair of them would resolve the problem, 

That's what us illogical people need to know. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Don

NY_Yankees_Fan · Feb 9, 2005

( Any idea if they make a quick disconnect for 8 gauge wire? I want to take the Sims cab off in the summer and I want to disconnect the power to the fuse box. I looked at Radio Shack web site, no luck, any suggestions??
)

Anyone have any suggestions or alternatives for my problem??? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

surfran · Feb 9, 2005

To simply answer your question, yes I am sure you can get something, but your specifics will dictate your options. If it were me I would stop by a local electrical distributor and talk to them about options. They should be able to help you out.

Information I would go with is the following.

-Location of plug/connector (i.e. covered in cab or out in weather).
- Number of wires needing to be connected/disconnected.
- rating of fuse/circuit protection of device upstream of connector.
- size of wires (you indicated 8 awg so this one you already have).

It could be expensive....8 awg can handle a lot of amps.

Another option would be a marine store possibly.

Good luck,

surfran · Feb 9, 2005

Fred,

I am not sure what Curt has, but you can't draw more amperage than a fuse is rated for so either he doesn't have 55w rated lights or he has a larger fuse than 7.5 amps.

Each 55w light draws 4.58 amps at 12v.

You could run 35w lights at 2.91 amps and use 2 of them on a 7.5 amp circuit.

Hope this helps and Curt I am not intending to take any stab at you, just looking at the numbers and trying to make sure Fred doesn't go in the wrong direction.

Bob_Skurka · Feb 9, 2005

( If your alternator/battery light comes on, is it telling you the alternator is not charging or is it telling you the battery is dead?

Simply shutting down a pair of them would resolve the problem, 

That's what us illogical people need to know. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Don )

Don for the answer to that you'd need to check you particular owners manual. I'm sure that many measure battery amperage when it gets to a preset "low" level and that lights the light to alert you. At that point, an idiot light is just what it is described as, it is simply a dumb light that tells you your battery has reached that preset level.

It can't tell you if your alternator is dead. It can't tell you if a mouse chewed the wiring and the alternator is functional but not sending current. It can't tell you that your battery is dead because it has no clue, (after all it is just a light bulb in your dash) however, if you have lights and power it is safe to say that you have some level of function from either your alternator or battery or most likely both.

Typically, a simple shutting down of the offending light would not only resolve the problem but start the process of recharging the battery. The draw down of the battery, if it happens is very similar, in my simple mind, to the way hydraulic systems work. You have a hydraulic pump that is rated at "x" gpm of flow. If you are working the loader it is likely taking all the available flow that the pump is pushing. If you are working the loader AT THE SAME TIME you are ALSO working a Top N Tilt system then the hydraulic flow is split between the 2 and the speed of the cylinders is reduced. Is it likely that you will be operating BOTH at the same time on a small CUT . . . probably not, but if it did occur it would not be for extended periods of time, it would likely be for a few moments. The parallel is drawn to the electrical system, in that you are typically not driving forward and reverse at the same time so you typically don't need 6 55-watt lamps pointing forward and also need 2 55-watt lamps pointing rearward, and have them all lit up. At that point it would be more likely that you'd melt the hair on your head and blind yourself as you rotated in your seat looking both forward and aft. Now all that said, I'm still talking about relatively small cabless tractors here. If we want to move up to a real AG tractor, then I'd probably want a 70+ amp alternator to power 8 lamps forward so I could work the fields at night. I'd probably want 2 to 4 reaward as well so I could see my implement. But then I'd probably be pulling a 12 to 20 foot wide implement and working a field significantly larger than a few acre lawn and a 72" mower deck.

kennyd · Feb 9, 2005

Tom,
The answer to your problem is Sermos connectors, AKA Anderson PowerPoles.
A quick google search came up with this PAGE ,But there many more dealers.

I have used the small ones in my RC hobby for may years with great success. We also use the large ones at work for connecting battery strings together.

Hope this helps...

Freds · Feb 9, 2005

That's a good point you make about turning in the seat and being blinded by a light, Bob. I had intended on running all four at the same time. I plow snow in both directions (FEL and rear blade) and unless the light switches were somehow hooked up to the HST pedal..., it seemed more practical to turn them all on and leave them on. I may need to make a "horse blinder" type side shield if that's going to be a problem.
So, does anyone have a good online source for all the necessary stuff - lights, marine switches, wire, fuses, black flex conduit..., or a onetime stop that may be local like a Carquest or similar (I won't shop at NAPA anymore)? Am I going to have to buy at a few places?

Oh, and FWIW, I saw a Nat Geo special on dogs one time and they said the safest place to cross a city block was about 20 ft from an intersection, not at the intersection and not in the middle. Apparently strays learn this on their own. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Skurka · Feb 9, 2005

Freds . . . I purchased my stuff from Go2Marine over the internet. They obviously are a marine supplier. I wanted waterproof stuff. Go2Marine Web Site

There are probably dozens of other sources for the same/similar parts.

IF you are at all worried about drawing down your battery, and you want to run 4 lamps at once, you might want to consider 2 35 watt lamps and 2 55 watt lamps. That would likely keep you at 40 Amps. Your own use will determine if it ever becomes an issue, but I'd probably feel very safe with 4 55watt lamps and just switch them off when not really needed.

Soundguy · Feb 9, 2005

( Can a larger alternator overcome less than ideal circuitry? )

NO

What you are seeing is simply 'overrating' built in.. A 7.5 FA fuse would have popped. he's using a SB, and running it right to the edge. Also.. keep in mind many of these lamps watt ratings, and amp ratings may be calcs done on paper at 12v. An alternator kicking out 14.7 v changes those calcs... . Smaller wire can carry more power without increasing amps due to a higher voltage. That's why a 6v battery cable looks like your thumb.. and a 12v battery cable looks like your finger... It was a big money saver in copper alone to go to 12v systems.. think of voltage as 'pressure'.. etc.

I think Bob's post summed it up good. A slight discharge on the systeme is probably going to be ok.. the storage battery will handle it for hours.. just depends on what the output rating and duty cycle on the alt is.. if it's max 'I' for infinite 'T'.. then running at full load is fine. It would only become a problem if you had a fuel cutoff solenoid, and your voltage dropped below the 'hold' threshold for the relay... of course at that point you probably couldn't re-start either!

Soundguy

Freds · Feb 9, 2005

Thanks guys!

Freds · Feb 9, 2005

I was browsing through some lights on Ebay among other places and have a question:
Flood, spot, driving, fog... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I was thinking the floods because you really don't need a piercing beam that shines a mile down the road, just something that lights up the area around the tractor at low speed. Fogs may fit in here also.

What do you all favor for your auxillery lights?
Thanks

Bob_Skurka · Feb 9, 2005

I would opt for the widest beam possible, flood would be my choice.

The problem with most fog lights is they are designed for low mounting near the ground, if you want to mount on the ROPs the pattern spread is not quite what you might hope for. (Don't ask me how I found that out, but I might have some laying around if you are interested /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif)

Driving lights will throw out a nice bean well in front, but remember they are designed for cars doing 55+ mph and you will need to light up the area around a slow moving tractor.