Natural Gas Powered Generator

[Farwell]

Joe,
I get my 30 pound tanks filled at an Amish country store at a very reasonable price, I will talk to them next time I get my tanks filled. They do sell several larger tanks but not sure how many pounds they hold.
Thanks for the idea. When I was a kid on the farm we used two propane cylinders that were about 18 inches around and a little over 4 feet tall to heat our stove and hot water. We had an auger fed coal burning hot water furnace for heat.
We had a power outage last weekend on one of the first real Winter like storms. Strong winds and snow with a temperature in the high 20's. We are on a well and natural gas forced air heat, it gets a little scary when you have no heat or water and no idea when the power will come back on. I have never lost natural gas but know that there is always a first time and that it will happen at the most inconvenient time.
Farwell

 

[XmasTreeGrower]

David
I have read in several spots that the smaller cylinders will not work correctly on a larger generator. Something to do with the high flow rates freezing up the regulators and valves typically fitted to these tanks.

I am in the process of doing the same as you. I have a 15K commercial Onan that I am going to feed off my 300 gallon propane tank that is used for my furnace. The propane companies in our area do not charge rental fees if you use X amount per year. Can't remember the exact amount but it is pretty low. Could you convert your water heater to qualify for free usage?

Just food for thought!

Thanks
Bill

 

[VA_Joe]

That's correct - the larger the generator/furnace - the more surface area you need at the top of the tank for the liquid to boil off into gas. Check out this link:

http://www.flameengineering.com/Propane_Info.html

It has the vaporization rate/available BTU capacity for a 100 pound cylinder across temperature (great link/good company to do business with). A 30 pound tank will do far worse.

Joe

 

[VA_Joe]

BTW - the tanks you describe sound like either 100 pound or 50 gallon (approx. 200 pound) tanks.

 

[ronjhall]

One of the reasons that you never lost natural gas is the pumps are run by natural gas. I guess it could be lost if someone cut the main supply line to the area. But then I would probably still have electricity. There is a natural gas pumping station a little over a mile from my home. Would never known it was there except it blew up a few years ago when something went wrong with one of the compressors. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

 

[VA_Joe]

Makes good sense - even a short natural gas outage can have deadly consequences - especially during a cold Northeast winter.

 

[Farwell]

Bill,
Thanks for the tank information that was something that I had no idea about. Don't think I would switch anything else to propane because so far this year it cost about three times the amount that natural gas costs in my area. I am really getting educated and with the information I now have I think that I will be better off sticking with natural gas.
The information that the natural gas pumps are powered by natural gas instead of electricity also helps my decision.
It will be after the first of the year before I start this project but will post a few photos when I do.
I am always amazed at how much I learn from the folks on TBN. Thanks a whole bunch.
Farwell

 

[Egon]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( natural gas pumps are powered by natural gas instead of electricity also helps my decision.
)</font>

Natural gas compressor stations may use natural gas as fuel for the primemovers but many of the ancillary systems involved may require electricity.

Air systems, positioners, valve actuators, control systems, air fans, cooling systems and such usually like electrical power.

Egon

 

[Farwell]

Egon,
The utility companies got us coming and going. If I ever end up without natural gas I will change the generator to propane and wait for the next problem. I have the makings for a double barrel stove, lots of trees and furniture if I get desperate. Not sure what I will do for water.
Thanks for the info.
Farwell

 

[GaryM]

I have the 15KW 3600RPM Generac unit. Runs on propane. I bought it from the Electric Generator Store. Had it deliverd to the door in four days.

Yes, noisier than an 1800RPM unit but I didn't have the extra money available.

 

[woodstick]

I have had the Guardian 15KW air cooled generator for over two years. I have had no problems with it, and it has about 100 hours of use so far. Cost was $2995 + about $800 to connect and put on a concrete pad. Keep in mind when sizing your generator that natural gas has less BTU's than propane; in my case my 15KW unit is rated at 13KW with natural gas. We have free gas use on our farm, so I didn't even consider propane. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Egon]

There are other ways than to live on the grid. One hundred years ago most people did not know what the Grid was. Wood/coal stoves, hand/wind operated water pumps, coal oil lamps or kerosene lamps, candles. Seems everyone survived.

Probably much better set up for natural disasters than now.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[kennyd]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( That's correct - the larger the generator/furnace - the more surface area you need at the top of the tank for the liquid to boil off into gas.
)</font>

That is correct. If you poke deep into this SITE as well, they describe that. They also have good tips for connecting to NG and LPG, such as BTU formulas and pipe sizing.
This site was a great resource when I was researching my installation. They also have conversion kits for most portable generators

 

[Darren]

If you forsee times when you'll need to run the unit continuously for long periods of time, I'd suggest a Hawkpower unit due to the use of a converted diesel engine. The Lister-Petter engine is much sturdier than a gasoline engine. It will outlast a couple gasoline engines. Even with frequent use, I doubt you'll ever need to replace it using it only for backup power.

http://www.maesco.com/products/hp/hp.htm

Lister-Petter power is preferred for running the refrigeration units on fishing boats because of their reliability. You absolutely don't want to have a catch go bad on you. On the Gulf coast, a generator is called a Lister. That tells you something. The Listers are also slow speed (1800 rpm) engines so that increases their longevity.

 

[Darren]

You're right. The pipeline would have to be shutdown to stop the flow of natural gas to the engines driving the compressors.

 

[VA_Joe]

Yup - and if that happened the damage would have already been (everyones pilots would have gone out). Better for it to happen infrequently that way (either by a lack of gas or an infrastructure breakdown) vice a far too frequent electrical outage.

 

[VA_Joe]

Thanks much for the site reference. I like the dual fuel options. Did you buy from them?

 

[kennyd]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Did you buy from them? )</font>
Negative. As I posted in the begining of the thread, I got my Generac 15kw AC unit from NORWALL Power Systems
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[JeffSpencer]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I have had the Guardian 15KW air cooled generator for over two years. I have had no problems with it, and it has about 100 hours of use so far. Cost was $2995 + about $800 to connect and put on a concrete pad. Keep in mind when sizing your generator that natural gas has less BTU's than propane; in my case my 15KW unit is rated at 13KW with natural gas. We have free gas use on our farm, so I didn't even consider propane. )
)</font>
Actually, natural gas is sold by the therm. There are 100,000 BTU's in a therm and 90,000 BTU's in a gallon of propane. Natural gas is used to produce electrical energy now-a-days (instead of coal) and most likely, the only time you will lose gas service would be the result of a third party damage or in a disaster...a tree may topple over and pull the pipe out of the ground with the tree roots.

EDIT: During natural disasters, I have witnessed propane tanks floating off. If you do go with propane, make sure you anchor the tank sufficiently.

DISCLAIMER: I have been in the natural gas business for 25+ years, so I am partial to our product.

 

[VA_Joe]

After several days of following a thread it's easy to lose track of who said what. Thanks again for the link.

Joe