Mini-split heat pump died

[TnAndy]

I installed a Mitsubishi 18,000 BTU mini split about 20 years ago....mounted the indoor & outdoor units, ran the piping & wiring....fairly easy job. Paid a HVAC guy to come out, vacuum down the lines and turn the gas loose from the pre-charged compressor end. Worked fine all those years, finally the other day comes we needed a little bit of heat for a chilly morning, and nothing coming out. Indoor fan ran, outdoor fan ran, so I'm thinking "no, or low, gas". Called a guy off Craig's List...he comes, hooks a gauge up "No gas". Hooks a bottle of nitrogen up, you can hear it SSSing out of the line going into the compressor. Vibration over the years wore a hole in the line is our guess. 20 year old unit, end of service life I guess.

SO, the guy prices me a new LG unit (he doesn't handle Mitsubishi) for $4300 installed. Sends me an email quote with the LG model he proposes. I look it up online, I can buy it for $1809, no tax, free shipping. If I were to need a new line set.....it uses 3/8 and 5/8", just like the current Mitsubishi...but where the new units connect 'might' well be a few inches short of reaching....that would add $149. I assume his cost from a local jobber would not be any higher than $2k, and likely several hundred less.

My question is: DO HVAC guys (him & 1 helper) really make $2300+ for a day's work ? In East Tennessee ??

Probably not even a full day if he can reuse the line set in place, and that line runs across a wide open, accessible attic (10/12 pitch) with plywood floor....can't get much easier.

I mean I'd have paid 500-800 bucks to keep an old guy from climbing around/etc....but 2300 ?

Emailed him back, said 'call me a cheapskate but you're way overpriced'....and I guess I'll be ordering the unit and putting it in myself. I may spring for a set of gauges and a low-medium end vac pump, and just do the whole ball of wax.

I DID pay him for the service call on the old unit. Asked what I owed him when he was finished looking at it (1/2hr, tops). He says "Nothing if you buy the new one from me, $70 otherwise" I handed him 70 in cash, and said "If you put the new one in, you can subtract it from the total if you want"....which is code for "Yeah, I know you can simply overprice the job that much and I'm getting nothing"...but whatever... I feel like we're square on the first visit.

 

[RNeumann]

I doubt he is making a killing off anyone. But if you don’t want to pay it look into a MrCool unit. Those are pre charged and don’t need to be purged first. A total DYI operation.

 

[Overtaxed]

I have a family member who works in commercial AC. There's a lot of profit in it, let's leave it at that. And I suspect residential is even higher because you're dealing with so many wildly uneducated customers. Also, you need certifications and licenses to buy the gas, so very difficult to DIY. I'll look into those Mr. Cool units though, never heard of that before, could be a good option for some of my locations.

I just had a new AC installed in the house. The parts cost was about 2K, the total bill was close to 5K. Now, that said, I don't envy that job, it was a nightmare, yes, it was only a day for 2 guys to do it, but it was an awful day of work and it would have been near impossible to do by myself, even if I could get the Freon and had all the gauge sets and pump.

 

[Alien]

We got a Panasonic split unit from Harvey Norman retailer, reverse cycle 7.1 kw inverter for about $1100 and $500 install and about $200 to run a dedicated power supply about 20 meters. Had it 18 months now and it just about warms the whole house from the lounge room.
Your prices seem very expensive to me.
We did get a good price on it but if we had paid full retail it was only about $1699.

 

[DMax82]

My Mitsubishi 12k BTU mini split cost me $2600 installed. This was in an attached apartment on my new home build. Not sure of the model, but a quick Google search shows them in the $1200-1700 range for sale online. Presumably no sales tax and maybe free shipping.

 

[3Ts]

I got an LG 18000 BTU mini split and installed it my self. The AC company wanted around $4k. I bought the unit from and company in New York and had it shipped to Texas for less than $2k. Installed it my self with my wife's help and we're in our mid 60's at the time. I did buy a vacuum pump and digital vacuum gauge for about $250. The instructions were clear and included everything that needed to be done. I skipped the "purge with nitrogen" step because I didn't have nitrogen. But everything else was straight forward. The key is having 25' of line, that way the freon charge does not need to be adjusted. The biggest problem we had was lifting the 35# indoor unit and sticking the lines thru the 3" hole in the wall.

 

[SimS]

OP;
Would repairing the leak, recharging put the unit back into service? BTW you're not a cheapskate, you're frugal. Big difference. Good luck.

SimS

 

[Sigarms]

I have a family member who works in commercial AC. There's a lot of profit in it, let's leave it at that.

This is a FACT...

The average HVAC company in the United States averages 2% net profit.

Sat down with a guy who has 10 guys working for him, ran his books, he did over 1.4 million in sales the previous year, and he was actually in the hole do to doing "free" work for people who couldn't afford it.

Worked with a 2 man show who worked out of his house, no overhead at all (at least in his mind), owned everything he had, no bills. Ran his books and he STILL was running at 18% overhead. He was bewildered.

Run a HVAC business, employ mulutiple people keeping them busy and drive TO your customers job instead of having them come to you. Most guys who run companies would be better off working for 20-30 bucks an hour and leave the headache behind.

1 - Price
2 - Service
3 - Availability

Pick two of the above as you can't offer all 3 and stay in business...

Single zone system, depending on the model and the capacity (NOT SEER rating), $4,300 is an average price.

 

[TnAndy]

This is a FACT...

The average HVAC company in the United States averages 2% net profit.

Sat down with a guy who has 10 guys working for him, ran his books, he did over 1.4 million in sales the previous year, and he was actually in the hole do to doing "free" work for people who couldn't afford it.

Worked with a 2 man show who worked out of his house, no overhead at all (at least in his mind), owned everything he had, no bills. Ran his books and he STILL was running at 18% overhead. He was bewildered.

Run a HVAC business, employ mulutiple people keeping them busy and drive TO your customers job instead of having them come to you. Most guys who run companies would be better off working for 20-30 bucks an hour and leave the headache behind.

1 - Price
2 - Service
3 - Availability

Pick two of the above as you can't offer all 3 and stay in business...

Single zone system, depending on the model and the capacity (NOT SEER rating), $4,300 is an average price.

I understand....but this is a one guy/one helper show. Overhead ought to be minimal.....but OK....throw in 20% overhead...call it $500 bucks on $4300. I KNOW the equipment cost is $1800 or less (I would be paying retail for it). I KNOW the job is less than a day.

$4300 - 500 = 3800 - 1800 = 2000 Take another 200/day out for the helper....likely high, even with matching taxes/insurance (which OUGHT to be part of that overhead), he ain't paying the helper $20/hr HERE.

Hence, $1800+ . Assuming 8hrs (it won't be), that works out to $225/hr. Still seems a bit exorbitant >to me< .

 

[herm0016]

We just paid about 12k for a Mitsubishi 3 head, 12k, 9k and 9k installed. took 3 guys 2 days, plus a full day for an electrician. a clean and professional crew. retail on the unit i got installed is about $5500 online, without all the accessories.

28,6 BTU 18 SEER Mitsubishi Tri Zone H2i Hyper Heat Pump System 9+9+12 | HVACDirect.com

after fuel, a 300 dollar permit, supplies, insurance, van, tools, taxes, etc.. I do not think anyone is getting rich, maybe the insurance guy. a 20 year old unit may not use a refrigerant that is cheap and readily available today.

 

[Sigarms]

I understand....but this is a one guy/one helper show. Overhead ought to be minimal.....but OK....throw in 20% overhead...call it $500 bucks on $4300. I KNOW the equipment cost is $1800 or less (I would be paying retail for it). I KNOW the job is less than a day.

$4300 - 500 = 3800 - 1800 = 2000 Take another 200/day out for the helper....likely high, even with matching taxes/insurance (which OUGHT to be part of that overhead), he ain't paying the helper $20/hr HERE.

Hence, $1800+ . Assuming 8hrs (it won't be), that works out to $225/hr. Still seems a bit exorbitant >to me< .

It's not. The biggest issue business owners have such as your one man show and and helper have is depreciation and what it costs to replace a vehicle and tools.

I just told you that a one man show that works out of his house that has no overhead is running close to 20% overhead.

The idea of being in business is to make money for the business.

Part of the issue as well is you gave no model or size of the unit, but irregardless, your online price for equipment only was $1,809. Contractor cost sell price installed was $4,300. If you own a business and actually want to make money for the business, the price is more than acceptable. That said, I would of probably thown in a discount if you ordered it from me that day (but you didn't state capacity from the system for heating or cooling).

In NC you install a HVAC system, first year, any issues, you're going back out to fix it for free.

Order the mini split system online, no warranty other than buying from the place who sold it to you online in the first place.

Eastern Tenn is no different than eastern or western NC or WV or NY or Pa or Mass or Alabama or South Carolina IMO. For whatever area a HVAC contractor lives in, it always seems like a ****** market for whatever reason. Go figure.

 

[TnAndy]

We just paid about 12k for a Mitsubishi 3 head, 12k, 9k and 9k installed. took 3 guys 2 days, plus a full day for an electrician. a clean and professional crew. retail on the unit i got installed is about $5500 online, without all the accessories.

28,6 BTU 18 SEER Mitsubishi Tri Zone H2i Hyper Heat Pump System 9+9+12 | HVACDirect.com

after fuel, a 300 dollar permit, supplies, insurance, van, tools, taxes, etc.. I do not think anyone is getting rich, maybe the insurance guy.

And I could see something like that...3 heads, new install, may or may not have been easy to run the piping/wiring.

But mine is just about dead simple. Supply wiring already run to a disconnect on the wall beside the unit.....take the flex off the old unit, put on the new....10 minutes. "L" bracket bolted to the wall the unit sits on....4 bolts, 2 line connections, remove old. The pipe is the same size for old and new....3/8 & 5/8. May not be able to use it, as the connection ends may not work out, but even running new is dead simple. Compressor located on gable wall end of garage....pipe runs across the garage attic....which is fully open, you can walk up to the piping in the attic...terminates down thru the top of a wall into the dining room where the indoor unit is located. Hour or so to run new pipe IF needed. Hour to R&R old indoor head with new one. Hour to evac the system, turn the gas loose from the pre-charge compressor end, and fire it up. If they get here by 8am and ain't done by shortly after lunch, they are goofing off.

a 20 year old unit may not use a refrigerant that is cheap and readily available today.

R22. But gas is irrelevant....I'm not putting the cost of a compressor in a 20yr old unit. Had it been a simple, repairable leak, I would have had it recharged and gone on.....which is why I had him out in the first place.

 

[Sigarms]

We just paid about 12k for a Mitsubishi 3 head, 12k, 9k and 9k installed. took 3 guys 2 days, plus a full day for an electrician. a clean and professional crew. retail on the unit i got installed is about $5500 online, without all the accessories.

28,6 BTU 18 SEER Mitsubishi Tri Zone H2i Hyper Heat Pump System 9+9+12 | HVACDirect.com

after fuel, a 300 dollar permit, supplies, insurance, van, tools, taxes, etc.. I do not think anyone is getting rich, maybe the insurance guy. a 20 year old unit may not use a refrigerant that is cheap and readily available today.

You could of went with the GL indoor models, which is what I would of talked you into doing (would have no affect on capacity rating for heating or cooling). Those handheld remotes on the FH indoor units are a pain to understand IMO. Would of saved some money as well. Would of given you the Redlink wall programable option for a thermostat (AKA controller) as well. Lot more easier for people over the age of 50 to use IMO.

Would like to think they also gave you an option for ball valves on each line to help with service work down the road (means that if you have a issue with a indoor unit, you don't need to turn the whole system off to work on it).

You're indoor unit also has the iSee sensor. I ended up in Eastern Tennessee on a job for a contractor because the homeowner (a woman) was having issues with that sensor. Same woman's husband lived out on the west coast if that told you anything about the woman LOL Issue is on slow fan speed you can actually hear the motor operating on the sensor if you're close enough to the indoor unit.

This is why you pay more money to people that know what they're doing IMO.

 

[Sigarms]

R22. But gas is irrelevant....I'm not putting the cost of a compressor in a 20yr old unit. Had it been a simple, repairable leak, I would have had it recharged and gone on.....which is why I had him out in the first place.

FYI, pretty much on any 10 year plus old mini split unit, you run a very good chance that if either you're outdoor unit or indoor unit is "dead", you're replacing the WHOLE system (indoor and outdoor unit).

 

[TnAndy]

It's not. The biggest issue business owners have such as your one man show and and helper have is depreciation and what it costs to replace a vehicle and tools.

And I allowed 20% ($500) in my figures above, and the guy is still....well, trying to anyway .....make over $200/hr. Seems to me if he had been willing to pay himself 75-100/hr, including windshield time, he would have stood a lot better chance at getting my business.....especially since he understood I put the last one in, as well as another on the other end of the house (I told him), so he knew he wasn't dealing with the average, know nothing homeowner.

I
Part of the issue as well is you gave no model or size of the unit, but irregardless, your online price for equipment only was $1,809. Contractor cost sell price installed was $4,300. If you own a business and actually want to make money for the business, the price is more than acceptable. That said, I would of probably thown in a discount if you ordered it from me that day (but you didn't state capacity from the system for heating or cooling).

Can't see WHY the size of the unit is germane to my post. Told you it was the EXACT same brand (LG) and size....which is 24,000 BTU if you find that critical, and model Model: LS243HLV if that makes a lick of difference. Took the model straight off his proposal, and went to several websites that sell online....this one was the least at $1809

LG LS243HLV - 24k BTU Cooling + Heating - Wall Mounted Air Conditioning System - 21.5 SEER

As to the warranty, I get it....basically none. Local jobber (same one the HVAC guy would have bought it from) made a big deal of that when I called to ask if they would sell to me ("NO..we only sell to installers) (I was willing to pay a bit more to keep the money local, but whatever).

I, in turn, pointed out I could replace the ENTIRE system more than twice over for the cost of that install....and the outdoor unit is only $1150, the indoor unit $799 should either need replacing individually. Can you buy a lemon out of the box....sure....but most stuff like this is quite reliable. Get your pipe connects flared right and tight, evac the system and hold it to make sure of that, turn the gas loose and the fool thing will likely run JUST LIKE THE LAST ONE....20 years.

 

[TnAndy]

FYI, pretty much on any 10 year plus old mini split unit, you run a very good chance that if either you're outdoor unit or indoor unit is "dead", you're replacing the WHOLE system (indoor and outdoor unit).

Sure. In our case, we pretty much only use the unit a few weeks per year....part of July, August depending on the weather. I have a big whole house fan in an upstairs wall we use most nights as long as the temps stay below 70ish, which is a lot here in the mountains. The heating side we use rarely....did try to turn it on week or so back when the night dipped into the mid 40's just to take a little chill off the house, didn't want to build a fire in the wood stove, which is our primary source of heat in winter.

 

[Sigarms]

And I allowed 20% ($500) in my figures above, and the guy is still....well, trying to anyway .....make over $200/hr. Seems to me if he had been willing to pay himself 75-100/hr, including windshield time, he would have stood a lot better chance at getting my business.....especially since he understood I put the last one in, as well as another on the other end of the house (I told him), so he knew he wasn't dealing with the average, know nothing homeowner.





Can't see WHY the size of the unit is germane to my post. Told you it was the EXACT same brand (LG) and size....which is 24,000 BTU if you find that critical, and model Model: LS243HLV if that makes a lick of difference. Took the model straight off his proposal, and went to several websites that sell online....this one was the least at $1809

LG LS243HLV - 24k BTU Cooling + Heating - Wall Mounted Air Conditioning System - 21.5 SEER

As to the warranty, I get it....basically none. Local jobber (same one the HVAC guy would have bought it from) made a big deal of that when I called to ask if they would sell to me ("NO..we only sell to installers) (I was willing to pay a bit more to keep the money local, but whatever).

I, in turn, pointed out I could replace the ENTIRE system more than twice over for the cost of that install....and the outdoor unit is only $1150, the indoor unit $799 should either need replacing individually. Can you buy a lemon out of the box....sure....but most stuff like this is quite reliable. Get your pipe connects flared right and tight, evac the system and hold it to make sure of that, turn the gas loose and the fool thing will likely run JUST LIKE THE LAST ONE....20 years.

1 - With a mini split, I would of given you a MINUMUM $3,500 up front cost to install, and if you said ok, I'd come out to look at it.
2 - Apologies, it's not the size that matters, but cooling and heating capacity given per the inverter compressor that really matters. That affects the cost of the models greatly.
3 - To be very honest, if I called and you said you put your last one in yourself, I wouldn't of bothered coming out to give you a quote because in your mind, no matter what i offer per warranty and service, it won't matter because 95% of the time, I'm going to be high in price. You can do it yourself. I get it. No hard feelings.

Like any business, sometimes you do get what you pay for and sometimes you get ripped off. Just need to know what you're getting and always get it in writing:thumbsup:

 

[herm0016]

You could of went with the GL indoor models, which is what I would of talked you into doing (would have no affect on capacity rating for heating or cooling). Those handheld remotes on the FH indoor units are a pain to understand IMO. Would of saved some money as well. Would of given you the Redlink wall programable option for a thermostat (AKA controller) as well. Lot more easier for people over the age of 50 to use IMO.

Would like to think they also gave you an option for ball valves on each line to help with service work down the road (means that if you have a issue with a indoor unit, you don't need to turn the whole system off to work on it).

You're indoor unit also has the iSee sensor. I ended up in Eastern Tennessee on a job for a contractor because the homeowner (a woman) was having issues with that sensor. Same woman's husband lived out on the west coast if that told you anything about the woman LOL Issue is on slow fan speed you can actually hear the motor operating on the sensor if you're close enough to the indoor unit.

This is why you pay more money to people that know what they're doing IMO.

I wanted to be able to heat to a lower outside temperature below 0*f Thus the choice of the outdoor unit. A good backup for our hot water baseboard on the cold and windy days. I don't know enough about them to know you can mix and match series of indoor and outdoor units, and it was not offered.

I agree the the eye thing is a gimmick but I don't find the remotes confusing at all, after a quick read through the manual. They are so much quieter than a window shaker that the tiny noise from the sensor is not an issue. easily drowned out by the 3 dogs snoring and dreaming of catching a squirrel.

anyway... point stands that stuff is expensive because there are a lot of unseen overhead expenses that cost more than most people think they do. NC or Tenn. has a much much lower cost of living/real-estate/taxes than the front range of Colorado as well.

 

[DerekF]

And I allowed 20% ($500) in my figures above, and the guy is still....well, trying to anyway .....make over $200/hr. Seems to me if he had been willing to pay himself 75-100/hr, including windshield time, he would have stood a lot better chance at getting my business.....especially since he understood I put the last one in, as well as another on the other end of the house (I told him), so he knew he wasn't dealing with the average, know nothing homeowner.





Can't see WHY the size of the unit is germane to my post. Told you it was the EXACT same brand (LG) and size....which is 24,000 BTU if you find that critical, and model Model: LS243HLV if that makes a lick of difference. Took the model straight off his proposal, and went to several websites that sell online....this one was the least at $1809

LG LS243HLV - 24k BTU Cooling + Heating - Wall Mounted Air Conditioning System - 21.5 SEER

As to the warranty, I get it....basically none. Local jobber (same one the HVAC guy would have bought it from) made a big deal of that when I called to ask if they would sell to me ("NO..we only sell to installers) (I was willing to pay a bit more to keep the money local, but whatever).

I, in turn, pointed out I could replace the ENTIRE system more than twice over for the cost of that install....and the outdoor unit is only $1150, the indoor unit $799 should either need replacing individually. Can you buy a lemon out of the box....sure....but most stuff like this is quite reliable. Get your pipe connects flared right and tight, evac the system and hold it to make sure of that, turn the gas loose and the fool thing will likely run JUST LIKE THE LAST ONE....20 years.

I am not going to say that I am an expert or that I know but I'm just going to offer my opinion. I dabbled in HVAC for about 6 months when I was in college and I needed a break from so much school and a little extra money. I then was a service plumber doing hydronic air conditioners in a lot of apartment complexes in Phoenix when I was first married. I plumbed for about 3 years. $4300 sounds fairly reasonable from the figures I remember when doing HVAC. I didn't write those bills. I did however write the bills for the hydronic air conditioners and I usually charged about $2000 to $3000 for them.

A hydronic air conditioner uses chilled or heated water with a fan blowing air by the heated or cooled fins, effectively cooling the air. So these hydronic ac units were sheat metal and copper pipes. I bought them from a little outfit in the middle of Phoenix for anywhere from $400 to $800 a unit depending on the size (we upcharged all parts by 65%). So the rest was labor and some time I had to install new filter doors and put in new ducting, sweat new pipe on, and other odds and ends. In this one specific apartment complex, the original installer never put valves on the individual units and so I would have to shut the whole system down and drain it which would take a least a couple hours for bottom floor apartments which added a lot of time.

Anyway, back to what I was originally wanting to say. I was making $18 an hour while the owner was charging $95 an hour for my labor. I am not going to give you the sob story that all business owners like to give people about how much their business costs and how little money they make. But I will say that I put probably $200 of gasoline into that service van a week depending on how much I drove. I also know that the insurance for all the vans was expensive. Workman's comp insurance is expensive. Paying office girls to write checks and answer phones was expensive (my wife did that for this company for $11 and hour and she was the lowest paid of 4 office ladies). The tools that each service van was outfitted with (besides my own $3000 worth of equipment I invested) was really expensive. Paying me to sit in Phoenix rush hour traffic was for 1-2 hours into Phoenix and 1-2 hours out of it was expensive. I could go on and on and on. The point is, the guy is not pocketing $2300 a day. I do think he makes a really good living and this 20% figure the other guys is giving you is probably low (I would guess its closer to 30%-40%, but like I said, I don't know), but you have to make a lot of money to make it worth it.

I bet you he is making a little money off of the unit he is buying. He purchases it for $1000 and figures he charges you $1500 for it or something like that. His tools, truck, knowledge, work, and product all costs money and being in a trade like that is miserable, so hes gotta charge a good chunk of change to make it worth his time and body wear and tear. I wouldn't do any of that miserable work for less than $25 an hour in my pocket again. If I was going to take a wild guess, he is probably going to shove $1000 in his pocket from that job, or at least profit it and the business will get a lot of it. But you know, a lot of people make that same amount of cash working a lot less hard in a day, I don't think its that absurd. But from the consumer stand point, yeah, it sucks! I would DIY but I am also 24 years old. Sorry for the long reply. And I didn't meant to sound like a know it all or push anyones buttons if anyone feels that way...

 

[Sigarms]

I wanted to be able to heat to a lower outside temperature below 0*f Thus the choice of the outdoor unit. A good backup for our hot water baseboard on the cold and windy days. I don't know enough about them to know you can mix and match series of indoor and outdoor units, and it was not offered.

I agree the the eye thing is a gimmick but I don't find the remotes confusing at all, after a quick read through the manual. They are so much quieter than a window shaker that the tiny noise from the sensor is not an issue. easily drowned out by the 3 dogs snoring and dreaming of catching a squirrel.

anyway... point stands that stuff is expensive because there are a lot of unseen overhead expenses that cost more than most people think they do. NC or Tenn. has a much much lower cost of living/real-estate/taxes than the front range of Colorado as well.

You missed my point, you can get the exact same capacity going with a lower cost on a different indoor unit. Many contractors do not realize this (per Mitsubishi at least).

As a "professional" you need to know what is allowed per the manufacturer. I'm sorry, but I've worked a hand held remote for various Mitsubishi mini split, and your indoor unit is the most confusing of them all. Would never off that per a multi zone system.

The bigger issue is AHRI is still trying to catch up on how to rate them (AHRI determines your SEER rating).