MF 165 1975 hydraulic problems

[powellj5]

I own a 1975 MF 165 tractor that I have owned since 2009. When I first bought it I noticed a few problems in using the PTO (bush hogging), but it was not severe enough to do anything about it. These problems are getting worse and I am at the point where I need to do something about it. Here's what it's doing:
1. PTO won't stop turning after I move the lever to stop it and it is slow to start when I move the lever to start it.
2. The PTO shaft stops turning when going downhill (overfilling the hydraulic fluid fixes it)
3. In heavy grass the PTO shaft slips - I hear gear noise. It's not a traditional grinding noise, but more like a knocking. I have PTO clutch on my bush hog drive shaft to protect PTO.

I would like to do the work myself. This will be a first for me. Are the service manuals that I can download good enough to guide me through the process? Will this involve split the tractor?

 

[namyessam]

I own a 1975 MF 165 tractor that I have owned since 2009. When I first bought it I noticed a few problems in using the PTO (bush hogging), but it was not severe enough to do anything about it. These problems are getting worse and I am at the point where I need to do something about it. Here's what it's doing:
1. PTO won't stop turning after I move the lever to stop it and it is slow to start when I move the lever to start it.
2. The PTO shaft stops turning when going downhill (overfilling the hydraulic fluid fixes it)
3. In heavy grass the PTO shaft slips - I hear gear noise. It's not a traditional grinding noise, but more like a knocking. I have PTO clutch on my bush hog drive shaft to protect PTO.

I would like to do the work myself. This will be a first for me. Are the service manuals that I can download good enough to guide me through the process? Will this involve split the tractor?

I am not real familiar with your tractor but I do own a 135 and the 165 is covered in my repair manual. I did some reading and have some questions for you. Does your tractor have independent PTO. According to the manual, with this PTO you should pull the lever to the rear to engage the PTO and forward to disengage. On a standard PTO, the lever should have 3 positions possibly, ground speed, neutral, and engine speed. Do you have Multi-power on the tractor and does it work?

From what I read with the independent PTO when you stop the PTO it engages a brake to keep the PTO from turning. You say the PTO does not stop turning when you stop it. Thats clue number one. If you have Multi-power and it doesn't work, thats clue number 2. You also state that in heavy grass the PTO stops turning. From what I hear you describe and from what I have read, I suspect you have independent PTO. The books says the independent PTO is a hydraulicly operated brake and clutch. Both the multi-power (if you have it) and the independent PTO are run by an auxiliary pump in the differential. If the pump pressure is weak it would not engage the brake for the PTO enough to keep the PTO from turning and would stop turning in heavy grass. I am not sure but you may be able to have independent PTO and not have multi-power. I found that if you have to rebuild the independent PTO clutch it would require splitting the tractor. If the auxiliary pump is bad I believe you would also need to split the tractor.

It may be that you have a standard PTO and there is something wrong with the PTO part of your 2 stage clutch. Do you have to press the clutch all the way down to engage the PTO? If this is the problem, You would have to split the tractor at the clutch housing.

Have you ever changed the transmission-hydraulic fluid since you have owned it and is it the correct oil and correct level on the dipstick?

The fact the PTO stops going downhill has me baffled.

Hope this give you something to check out untill someone with more knowledge chimes in.

Happy New Year

namyessam

 

[namyessam]

I have a thought about the going down hill and the PTO stops. If you have independent PTO the auxiliary pump has a screen to filter incoming oil to the pump. This screen could be partially plugged and when going down hill the oil in the transmission flows to the front of the tractor. If the lower part of the filter is plugged the reduced oil level could prevent succifient amount of oil getting to the auxiliary pump, thus loosing pressure. Just a thought.

namyessam

 

[powellj5]

Thanks for your response.

I don't have multipower. From what you describe I must have an independent PTO. I have changed the hydraulic oil, but in order to keep the PTO running going downhill I had to overfill it. Overfilling fixed it for almost 2 years, but now it's not working so well.

I see the repair manuals for sale. I have repaired a lot of my own equipment in the past and I don't want to pay the MF dealer if I don't have to. I have never worked on this tractor at this level before.

With a good repair manual is this something that can be feasibly done by a "jack-of-all-trades" mechanic?

 

[namyessam]

Thanks for your response.

I don't have multipower. From what you describe I must have an independent PTO. I have changed the hydraulic oil, but in order to keep the PTO running going downhill I had to overfill it. Overfilling fixed it for almost 2 years, but now it's not working so well.

I see the repair manuals for sale. I have repaired a lot of my own equipment in the past and I don't want to pay the MF dealer if I don't have to. I have never worked on this tractor at this level before.

With a good repair manual is this something that can be feasibly done by a "jack-of-all-trades" mechanic?

Further reading in the I & T manual I have says that the tractors were available with Multipower only, Multipower and independent PTO, Multipower, independent PTO and auxiliary hydraulics or Multipower and auxiliary hydraulics. Based on this info, you cannot have independent PTO if you don't have Multipower.

If in some case the Multipower has been disconnected, How do you engage the PTO does the lever have Ground and Engine and center neutral position. If not, it could be somehow independent PTO. Is there a hydraulic port on the cover for the PTO lever. If there is, this is where a hydraulic gage can be hooked to test pump pressure for the auxiliary pump.

The overfilling baffles me if you don't have independent PTO.

I could not afford to pay someone to work on my tractor either. I guess I'm pretty handy with my hands and have split the tractor and replaced the clutch and rebuilt the engine completely. The big thing is to have the necessary flat concrete floor with plenty of jacks and blocking to move the tractor halfs away from each other safely enough to prevent an accident while working on it.

namyessam

 

[powellj5]

What you say makes sense. I have never used multi-power feature on my tractor. There is an open slot on my dash for it, but there is no lever. I figured that my model didn't come equipped with this option, but sounds like it was disconnected.

Thanks for your input. I think the first step for me is to get a shop manual.

 

[namyessam]

I think all tractors came with the slot. It seems I have read that some had cover plates over them. Like the book says you should not have independent PTO if you don not have multipower.

The real key to determine the type of PTO is the cover. You have not answered that question and I would like to know to see if my suspicions are correct. Does it have three positions Engine neutral and Ground or does it have an on and off position with some hydraulic lines coming out of it. Like I said in earlier posts, it doesn't make sense that it works with the hydraulic fluid level high if it is a standard PTO.

If you are going to attempt any kind of repair, a manual is a must. Most people recommend the official Massey Ferguson manual, I have an I & T manual, and it states its for the experienced mechanic. I would agree with that. It is vague at times and hard to understand. Keep us posted with what you find.

namyessam

P.S. Where are you located?

 

[powellj5]

The PTO has 2 positions only - no third position. I was looking on my tractor last night and I don't see any linkages,rods or actuators for multipower.

 

[powellj5]

Also, there are hydraulic lines coming out of the circular plate where the lever is located and I see the port that you were talking about for a pressure gauge.

We are in central North Carolina.

 

[namyessam]

Also, there are hydraulic lines coming out of the circular plate where the lever is located and I see the port that you were talking about for a pressure gauge.

We are in central North Carolina.

Then it looks like you have independent PTO for sure. You could drain the eight gallons of trans oil and rinse the rear end with diesel fuel. some say add two gallons and let soak. I took a hand garden tank sprayer and filled it with diesel and sprayed down the inside real good and washed the filter for the auxiliary pump hoping that would solve my problem but it didn't. There is also another filter screen for the main hydraulics that could be removed and cleaned while you have it drained. The top cap is retained by a wire to keep it from unscrewing. be sure to replace it. There was one poster that bought a tractor that it came unscrewed and prevented the engagement of his PTO.

namyessam

 

[namyessam]

Also, there are hydraulic lines coming out of the circular plate where the lever is located and I see the port that you were talking about for a pressure gauge.

We are in central North Carolina.

I would get a gage and hook it to the test port and see if the pressure is within specs. I think the book said between 240 and 350 lbs. I will check this when I get home tonight. There are many different pressure specs depending on the tractor and options. Do this before tearing anything apart. If the pump pressure is good it could be the plugged filter screen for the auxiliary pump. The screen is not removable without taking off the lift cover, splitting the tractor and removing the main pump. So if you can solve it the easy way, you'll avoid a lot of work. Taking off the lift cover is heavy and there's some special things to remove internally without damaging some real expensive components. splitting the tractor is another challenge. Keep us posted.

namyessam

 

[namyessam]

I would get a gage and hook it to the test port and see if the pressure is within specs. I think the book said between 240 and 350 lbs. I will check this when I get home tonight. There are many different pressure specs depending on the tractor and options. Do this before tearing anything apart. If the pump pressure is good it could be the plugged filter screen for the auxiliary pump. The screen is not removable without taking off the lift cover, splitting the tractor and removing the main pump. So if you can solve it the easy way, you'll avoid a lot of work. Taking off the lift cover is heavy and there's some special things to remove internally without damaging some real expensive components. splitting the tractor is another challenge. Keep us posted.

namyessam

I rechecked the manual and I'm pretty sure those pressure specs are right. I found a u-tube video someone posted titled massey ferguson 165 independent PTO. There are several he posted but I think it was the one he was checking the pressure with the pressure port on the PTO cover, He ran the engine and read the pressure at 20 bar which converts to 290 PSI. so this falls in the spec of 240 to 350 PSI.

namyessam

 

[klancf51]

I have a MF 135 Deluxe with IPTO. I believe the 135 and 165 share some IPTO parts. The IPTO system consists of a hydraulically actuated clutch, the enagament of which is controlled by a 3-position spool valve. The clutch drum is splined on to the rear of the hydraulic pump camshaft and the friction plate hub is splined on to the front end of the PTO shaft. Hydraulic pressure is supplied by one of the low pressure outlet ports of the Multi-power or auxillary pump at 250 psi minimum (to maintain this minimum pressure, a special valve is built-in to the outlet flow pipe in the Multi-power circuit). The clutch valve is operated by the hand lever on the LHS of the center housing. The IPTO clutch pack contains: 7-Friction Discs, 7-Separator Plates, 11-Needle Rollers, 11-Return Springs, 2-Piston Rings, and 2-Sealing Rings.

The IPTO unit also incorporates a friction brake to stop the PTO shaft when the PTO is disenaged. I've attached picture of the IPTO unit. Hope this helps.

 

[namyessam]

I have a MF 135 Deluxe with IPTO. I believe the 135 and 165 share some IPTO parts. The IPTO system consists of a hydraulically actuated clutch, the enagament of which is controlled by a 3-position spool valve. The clutch drum is splined on to the rear of the hydraulic pump camshaft and the friction plate hub is splined on to the front end of the PTO shaft. Hydraulic pressure is supplied by one of the low pressure outlet ports of the Multi-power or auxillary pump at 250 psi minimum (to maintain this minimum pressure, a special valve is built-in to the outlet flow pipe in the Multi-power circuit). The clutch valve is operated by the hand lever on the LHS of the center housing. The IPTO clutch pack contains: 7-Friction Discs, 7-Separator Plates, 11-Needle Rollers, 11-Return Springs, 2-Piston Rings, and 2-Sealing Rings.

The IPTO unit also incorporates a friction brake to stop the PTO shaft when the PTO is disenaged. I've attached picture of the IPTO unit. Hope this helps.

View attachment 353275

Have you had yours apart? If you have, am I correct in saying the repair will require removal of the lift cover and splitting the tractor. I believe I will need to repair or replace my auxiliary pump since my multi-power does not work properly and this will require the same procedure. I think the OP ultimately has low pressure from the pump and as a result damaged the clutch discs. He asked earlier in the thread if the damage could be repaired by a "jack of all trades" mechanic. What do you think?

namyessam

 

[shona13]

G'day powellj5.
The repairs you are considering doing are in my opinion a little bit more than a handyman type task ,you will along the way require a few service tools example to replace the input shaft seals on the front of the gearbox , a bush removing/installing kit used on the pto clutch pack.etc.

The most important thing you will need is a service manual make sure the manual covers your model tractor ,there are two or three diferent types of pumps installed in the 165 , Mark two, Mark three coarse or fine spline drive ??
Also be prepared to either, have made or if you are really lucky ,find second hand parts that are still serviceable, you will find there are a lot of the parts you require are no longer available.
I am not suggesting you do not take the job on I just feel that you should be forewarned ,having been a Massey specialist most of my working life and knowing what you will find.

Before you start anything consider that you are about to meet Big Bill ,this will be an expensive exersize.

The first step would be to check both the pto pump AND the main hydraulic pump, pressures.

To remove the Pumps ,Split the tractor between the REAR of the gearbox and the front of the differential housing ,pushing the two halves well apart say four /five feet give yourself plenty of room Note It is important before you start that you fit wooden wedges between the front axle beam and the axle housing, this will stop the front half tilting and falling of the jack.

That,s all I have at this stage , If you need any information don,t be afraid to shout .
Happy Days.
Hutch.

 

[klancf51]

Shona13 has it right on every count: skills, tools, service literature and cost (the IPTO clutch repair kit alone is close to $300). And it wouldn't hurt to have a helper available. The 165 parts manual will be essential imo: there is no doubt in my mind that there will be seals, gaskets, filters, etc that you should renew on reassembly. I would advise you to read as much service literature as you can get your hands on, inventory your tools and workshop and then decide if you have the skill and resources for this project. Before I start a project like this I make separate, written checklists for: disassembly, repair, and re-assembly. I also prepare a parts list. This takes time, but it prepares me for every step and gives me confidence that I have the correct order of each operation and the required tools, parts, sealants, tightening torque values, etc. I take the checklists to the shop and work off of them, checking off each step as I proceed. If you have questions about a procedure, parts or the order of the steps, you should ask! Break it down so that you know exactly what you are going to do before you loosen a single bolt and you should also have a very good estimate of the project's budget. Last but not least is safety! These castings are heavy. Incorporate safety into every step!


This repair and service will require splitting the tractor between the transmission and center housing. Removing the lift cover will only make the job easier in my opinion. As Shona13 suggests, checking the hydraulic pressure is relatively easy and you should do this before any disassembly just so that you know what's going on. For the IPTO, the outlet port pressure should be: 250 psi @ 550 RPM and 360 @ 2000 RPM. I do not have Multi-power on my 135, so I can't speak to that.

Best of luck!