M59 hydraulics got slow and weak.

[rScotty]

Yes. Sorry to the thread.

I used same dealer. They changed more releif valves, put gauges on and adjusted adjustable releif valves to maximum pressure. Bottom line, it runs and works good but this little machine suffers from heat. I have not used it much for my business because I have gotten very busy and started sub contracting the digging. So no long digs with it since last dealer trip. I just use it for mixing feed/mineral in front bucket for cows. It's perfect for that. I think I will go back to full size backhoe for work.

Darn. Well, I'm sorry to hear that's the upshot but sure do thank you for the update. One last question or two... Do you think yours is any different from other M59s? Or is what you are seeing just the limitation of the model?

And you've made me wonder if the backhoe temperature limitation is nothing more than the size of the oil cooling radiator?? The Kubota radiator looks big enough physically, but I also know that as an engineer I've watched in amazement for 40 years now as one foreign manufacturer after another repeats the same mistake on machines built for export to the US. Each one seems to have to learn all by themselves that they need to increase the cooling capacity on machines they send over here. I'm not exactly sure as to why.

Anyway, I've already said that I never have considered our M59 to be a real commercial/industrial duty TBL in the same league as the various makes of yellow industrial Cases, Cats, Fords, and JDs we see everyday on job sites. Frankly, I looked for one of those makes in the under 70hp & less than 9000 lbs. size and couldn't find it. Apparently nobody but Kubota & JD builds one. Naturally enough, the Kubota isn't built like a Case or Cat. For that matter, it isn't as quiet either. But all and all it is a better compromise for my work. It sure is a more handy machine with plenty of power and speed for my non-commercial uses. I can't help wondering if the differences between M59s we keep running into are nothing more than all of us us using the machines to nearly their full capacity in a different type of ground? Around here in the Rockies, I find myself needing the M59's strength and handy small size more than it's cycle speed. So I work mine hard, but get to run it at fairly low RPM. Or maybe that's just a difference in the jobs.
Good Luck,
rScotty

 

[TBarD]

I just spent the past three days digging with the M59 here on my place in Colorado. I have been working at 1800-2000 RPM. The backhoe has plenty of power, except for the swing. "Slow and weak" is exactly right for the swing. I can manage for what I need to do but it would be too slow for production purposes. In some cases, e.g. when I could only use one stabilizer and the hoe was not level, it could barely swing the hoe slightly uphill against its own weight. Plenty of power for everything else, it is only the backhoe swing which is an issue on mine. I agree though, that for one machine which does it all there is nothing better out there currently.

We theorized earlier that it could be an issue with lube for the main swing bearings. It's not conclusive yet, but I am making progress getting some high pressure synthetic red moly grease in there - the lower bearing is pretty much ok now, still hard to get grease into the top one. But I doubt if this is the problem. I'll have to take a more careful look at the swing circuit eventually when I have the hoe off.

 

[rScotty]

I just spent the past three days digging with the M59 here on my place in Colorado. I have been working at 1800-2000 RPM. The backhoe has plenty of power, except for the swing. "Slow and weak" is exactly right for the swing.
SNIP
We theorized earlier that it could be an issue with lube for the main swing bearings. It's not conclusive yet, but I am making progress getting some high pressure synthetic red moly grease in there.

Hello TbarD, glad to hear that you are getting some seat time in. It's a nice summer to be in Colorado. And glad to hear that the M59 is treating you well.

This thread has been an education for me. One of the things I wonder is if all our M59s work about the same and the difference is just in expectations? Or is there a real difference in the swings?

I think my swing strength and rate is about right for our machine; others could use more. But is the difference real or perception? I wonder if there is a simple way to compare swings? The Operator's Manual for the Kubota BT1200 Backhoe says to run the hoe with the engine at between 75% and full rated RPM after the oil is up to temperature... and to run at 50% before then. Frankly I run mine at about 50% or maybe less most of the time. The manual also says that swing cycle time is 2.1 seconds measured from 90 degrees to center. I'll measure mine if I can figure out an easy way to do it.

Talking about swing rate I've got to give Kubota credit for their swing protection circuit that causes the swing movement to suddenly and automatically slows down as it approaches the limit to either side. Some sort of anti-slam valve is being progressively actuated is what it feels like. For the last few degrees it is barely moving.... Very convenient and helpful. That's got to be why Kubota measures swing cycle time from 90 out towards center instead of the other direction.

I probably use the swing function to side sweep material out of the way more than I should. Our M59 will push hard enough to make me begin to worry about just how wise it is to put that much side stress on the backhoe. Then again, it could be I worry about stuff like that more than I should. More specifically, on the level it easily slides a rock the size of a suitcase or moves a pile of dirt and rocks about equal to what is held in a full bucket (18 or 24"). Ok, I admit that side-sweeping will do a bit more work than that, but I don't think it will budge a load twice that size unless I "thwop" it with some sweep speed - and doing that has got to be true backhoe abuse. Maybe that's about all that any of them will do? I wouldn't want mine to do more. Unloaded, it will swing fast enough to shake the tractor when it stops.

Getting lube into the swing platform zerks was a problem with mine. There are lots of zerks, and I had to use the hoe to sort of push on itself in different directions until it took lube. I was concerned because the swing movement would groan and screech and the regular tanslucent grease I use on the boom and bucket pivots just didn't make any difference even when I was successful in getting it into the swing bearings. When regular grease didn't work I searched until I found some ugly black and nasty high percentage Moly grease. BINGO! That fixed it in one cycle. The thing I hate about Hi-Moly greases is how they can stain almost everything that they touch with a permanent black mark. If not super careful, I find stains everywhere from gloves and tools to upholstery. But what I wanted was the specific way that moly lubricates differently from oil-based greases. Moly is expensive stuff....I think I paid somewhere around $15/20 tube. Here's a link that talks about why it's worthwhile to use for high pressures:
"MOLY" THE SUPER LUBRICANT
Or take a look at McMaster-Carr
Have fun out there,
rScotty

 

[Hersheyfarm]

This last time kubota corp and the rep were in on it. Kubota assured the dealer hydraulic temps over 180f are normal. I just don't think sustained heat like that is good. I am going to look into a bigger cooler. Another thing, once when I was changing filters without complet drain down I caught fluid in buckets. When I filled it back up I used a big clear plastic pitcher to pour oil back in. The oil was kinda milky but not with water, it was air tiny air bubbles. That's no good. Anybody else notice this?

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Rscotty I have seen you post on fluids, you seem to like new holland right? Wonder if all fluids are created equally? I am using the sudt2 now. Maybe some fluids release air better than others. The more air, the weaker the hydraulics and the more heat you generate. I was assured that the if the suction had a leak the tool the dealer used would have found it.

Another thing is the quick disconnects on the backhoe. I don't like having them and am taking them off. It doesn't seem good for a high flow attachment.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

So today I took the pioneer fittings off. You do not need any fitting to do this just take hose loose from control valve so it can rotate. You have a 1/2" return line that catches the fluid from a 3/8" boom swing line, and 1/2" line that supply's the rest of backhoe. Bad ideal. Working multiple cylinders will over power the restricted return fitting.

 

[rScotty]

Rscotty I have seen you post on fluids, you seem to like new holland oil, right?

Hershey, it's the tractor that seems to have a preference; not me!
Yeah, I've posted on the oil and the temperature before. And yes, I saw that same foaming in my SUDT too. Take a look at message #56 in this thread. But keep in mind that was the old SUDT, not the SUDT2. I swapped oils about a month before the SUDT2 came out....sigh... Still, I'm happy to stick with the New Holland GL134 for now.

Sounds like you got some interesting info from the Kubota rep regarding the hydraulic oil temperature. I'm thinking that the reps need to get with the guys who wrote the specs for the shop manual and decide what number they want to use. The shop manual is pretty specific about 140F as the upper temperature.

I agree on the quick disconnects. If you don't use them, why have the restriction on flow?

I'm editing this long post I did in the hopes that we can keep this thread more focused. The M59 is a top of the line model, so naturally expectations are high. As we discuss improvements, I don't want to lose sight of the fact that it is a very good machine just as it is. And as I read through these posts it obvious that Kubota has been supportive too.
It's all good, rScotty

 

[mike69440]

The two reasons I would not consider buying Kubota again are:

1. Part prices. Kubota is just too greedy.

2. Warrantee, Too often Kubota just does not step up in behalf of their customer.

Imagine the good faith Kubota would get just replacing the entire machine.
Kubota could then do some real failure analysis to improve their product.
Once Kubota fixes it they could donate the returned machine to a worthy organization (Like Me!).
Advertise this and self promote what a great company they are, telling the whole story truthfully, and write tit off to advertising. Everybody wins.

1.) Sure glad I own an L39 vs the M59.

I can work it to death, never had a heating loss of hydraulic problem. For a 10' hoe, it is a beast in all functions. Slow digger, but so are other TLB's and the controls are not pilot ( I own an Komatsu excavator and am spoiled by the speed an fine control's. ) The L39 could use the curl cylinders, 45 HP Motor, and front axle from the L45, but otherwise a strong machine. for its size.

2. I sure do agree with your statement. As much as I think Kubota's are generally fine machines, Kubota could use a lesson form some of the better car manufactures about customer service & support.

PS

Put Royal purple in it at the 400 hr service. Almost 1300 hrs later, same oil, just change filters.

 

[mike69440]

Hello TbarD, glad to hear that you are getting some seat time in. It's a nice summer to be in Colorado. And glad to hear that the M59 is treating you well.

This thread has been an education for me. One of the things I wonder is if all our M59s work about the same and the difference is just in expectations? Or is there a real difference in the swings?

I think my swing strength and rate is about right for our machine; others could use more. But is the difference real or perception? I wonder if there is a simple way to compare swings? The Operator's Manual for the Kubota BT1200 Backhoe says to run the hoe with the engine at between 75% and full rated RPM after the oil is up to temperature... and to run at 50% before then. Frankly I run mine at about 50% or maybe less most of the time. The manual also says that swing cycle time is 2.1 seconds measured from 90 degrees to center. I'll measure mine if I can figure out an easy way to do it.

Talking about swing rate I've got to give Kubota credit for their swing protection circuit that causes the swing movement to suddenly and automatically slows down as it approaches the limit to either side. Some sort of anti-slam valve is being progressively actuated is what it feels like. For the last few degrees it is barely moving.... Very convenient and helpful. That's got to be why Kubota measures swing cycle time from 90 out towards center instead of the other direction.

I probably use the swing function to side sweep material out of the way more than I should. Our M59 will push hard enough to make me begin to worry about just how wise it is to put that much side stress on the backhoe. Then again, it could be I worry about stuff like that more than I should. More specifically, on the level it easily slides a rock the size of a suitcase or moves a pile of dirt and rocks about equal to what is held in a full bucket (18 or 24"). Ok, I admit that side-sweeping will do a bit more work than that, but I don't think it will budge a load twice that size unless I "thwop" it with some sweep speed - and doing that has got to be true backhoe abuse. Maybe that's about all that any of them will do? I wouldn't want mine to do more. Unloaded, it will swing fast enough to shake the tractor when it stops.

Getting lube into the swing platform zerks was a problem with mine. There are lots of zerks, and I had to use the hoe to sort of push on itself in different directions until it took lube. I was concerned because the swing movement would groan and screech and the regular tanslucent grease I use on the boom and bucket pivots just didn't make any difference even when I was successful in getting it into the swing bearings. When regular grease didn't work I searched until I found some ugly black and nasty high percentage Moly grease. BINGO! That fixed it in one cycle. The thing I hate about Hi-Moly greases is how they can stain almost everything that they touch with a permanent black mark. If not super careful, I find stains everywhere from gloves and tools to upholstery. But what I wanted was the specific way that moly lubricates differently from oil-based greases. Moly is expensive stuff....I think I paid somewhere around $15/20 tube. Here's a link that talks about why it's worthwhile to use for high pressures:
"MOLY" THE SUPER LUBRICANT
Or take a look at McMaster-Carr
Have fun out there,
rScotty

Pound for pound, the L39 has more swing force than my excavator. I use the hoe almost as much to get unstuck or lift it to positon the machine as I do to dig. I would say the weakest function of the hoe is the dipper force, and it really is not bad.
About Grease. I wish figured this out earlier. My bucket linkages are worn out. I've changed the pins and bushing, but the links themselves are not bushed, have minimal load bearing area, and are priced the Kubota way, making them an expensive proposition to replace.
Grease the bucket linkages every 3 hours in heavy engagement work!. The manual says grease the loader every 10 hours. The other joints of the loader are not critical. Grease every 10-15 hours, but those bucket joits, grease the heck out of them.
Same goes for the hoe.

I like the Komatsu grease. It does not contain Moly, but is miseralbly tacky. Tacky in a good way. Pumps nice, stays put better than most other greases and is cheap at less than $3.50 a tube. I figure if it is what is used on a million dollar excavator, it works good on my tired old iron.

 

[mike69440]

Yes, I checked mine yesterday. Mine does just as yours does....that is, the bucket curl has precedence over the boom lift. The boom won't lift as long as it is curling. Are there any other moves like that? Do other backhoes do that? I don't think it does the same thing when pushing the boom down and curling...but now realize that I don't know what it does. Sort of like typing, working the backhoe is instinctive (now that I've reversed the thumb lever) and when I'm not working it I couldn't tell you which lever does what.
good luck, rScotty

I have al ot of seat time: about 1,100 hours on my grey maket excavator and over 1,600 hours on my L39.

On the L39, it behaves similar, but you can lift the boom curl and pull in on the dipper all at once. Doing this smothly is a lot more difficult with the L39 than on an excavator with pilot controls, but I've also run other small TLB's and they are terrible. Really terrible. The small cheaper hoes are the worst, really jerky and single function. By comparision, I would imagine the M59 is reasonaly smooth in operation to any other non industrial TLB.

I am suprised by the heating and foaming problems of the M59 on this thread.

 

[TBarD]

Finally got around to removing the backhoe today; used the grading scraper on the 3pt to level some ground. Works great except that it does not like rocks! Maybe I will be able to justify that rock bucket after all.

This thread has been an education for me. One of the things I wonder is if all our M59s work about the same and the difference is just in expectations? Or is there a real difference in the swings?

I think my swing strength and rate is about right for our machine; others could use more. But is the difference real or perception? I wonder if there is a simple way to compare swings? The Operator's Manual for the Kubota BT1200 Backhoe says to run the hoe with the engine at between 75% and full rated RPM after the oil is up to temperature... and to run at 50% before then. Frankly I run mine at about 50% or maybe less most of the time. The manual also says that swing cycle time is 2.1 seconds measured from 90 degrees to center. I'll measure mine if I can figure out an easy way to do it.
rScotty

Ok it does sound like there is some actual problem. I had about convinced myself that the swing was just a poor machine design but on mine it takes way more than 2 seconds to swing the hoe 90 deg (more like 10 or more), and no way can it push a large rock or swing the back end of the tractor over a trench like it should. So this gives me incentive to look for a real fix. Maybe it will be better once I mount the hoe back on the tractor and cycle everything, we will see.

I am still working the high pressure moly grease into one of my swing bearings. As you say, I try to load it in various directions and force some more in. It is gradually improving. Have to try it again with the hoe off, as there should be little force on the swing bearings with it resting on the ground

I am running SUDT2 in mine since I serviced it last fall. No problems aside from the swing, although it does rattle a bit when cold, for 30sec or so. I suspect the swing problem is something else.

Re removing the backhoe - turned out to be pretty easy. I had to do it on the ground though, so we will see how hard it is to reconnect. What took all the time was not removing the backhoe, but removing the 3pt hitch from the stow position on the side of the tractor! This took most of the afternoon. It had no doubt not been touched since the tractor was new, the pins were tight and there was some rust. It is ok now, but no way will I stow it back on the tractor when I reinstall the hoe.

 

[TBarD]

Ok it does sound like there is some actual problem. I had about convinced myself that the swing was just a poor machine design but on mine it takes way more than 2 seconds to swing the hoe 90 deg (more like 10 or more), and no way can it push a large rock or swing the back end of the tractor over a trench like it should. So this gives me incentive to look for a real fix. Maybe it will be better once I mount the hoe back on the tractor and cycle everything, we will see.

Success!! After removing and reinstalling the backhoe the swing is what I would expect! It now moves fast, and has real hydraulic force; I can lift the back of the tractor and reposition the whole tractor with the hoe (throw it around for that matter if I am not careful). I suspect the problem was the directional lever which switches the swing circuit between the 3pt and backhoe positions. With the hoe off I worked the two levers back and forth a number of times and made especially sure that the one for the swing was fully pushed in. Probably the directional valve for the swing was not fully actuated and leaking a bit, dumping flow to the return.

Reinstalling the backhoe is easy enough, once one gets things lined up.

So now the M59 is back to being the near perfect all-around TLB, powerful enough for what one needs to do, but still light enough to tow. I have not had any problems with SUDT2 foaming or whatever, at least so far with my machine. After a couple of hours of use the cylinders are hot to the touch, but only maybe 110 or so.

 

[rScotty]

Success!! After removing and reinstalling the backhoe the swing is what I would expect! It now moves fast, and has real hydraulic force; I can lift the back of the tractor and reposition the whole tractor with the hoe (throw it around for that matter if I am not careful). I suspect the problem was the directional lever which switches the swing circuit between the 3pt and backhoe positions.

Hooray! That is great! Now be careful with that swing, now TbarD....since it sounds like it is working as designed, that means it's got some serious force and speed. These M59s sure have a strong backhoe.
Sometimes when I've got the bucket hooked on something sturdy it feels like the hoe just might be able to lift the whole tractor up in the air. Just like the story of Strong Muldoon who would put his finger in a knot hole and just hold himself out at arm's length like a flag in the wind.....

I now think that moving the directional lever is what had to have fixed mine last week. Can't think of what else it could have been. There was a mysterious day when it would only swing in one direction, and then after I inspected everything and pushed and pulled on things and bounced it around it suddenly started working again. If I somehow bumped the directional lever, that's three of us now in the last month who have had M59 swing problems fixed by simply repositioning the directional levers.

Can't ask for much better than that.
rScotty

 

[rScotty]

BTW, after posting that long oil rant yesterday I got to thinking that it wasn't helping anyone to keep beating the same drum and singing the same songs, so I gave that posting a severe edit... it's civilized now.

And along that line, maybe we ought to start a new M59 thread about what's RIGHT with our machines.
Matter of fact, I'll do that right now.
rScotty

 

[mike69440]

Re: M59 hydraulics got slow and weak. Now My L39 is doing same after fire?

Success!! After removing and reinstalling the backhoe the swing is what I would expect! It now moves fast, and has real hydraulic force; I can lift the back of the tractor and reposition the whole tractor with the hoe (throw it around for that matter if I am not careful). I suspect the problem was the directional lever which switches the swing circuit between the 3pt and backhoe positions. With the hoe off I worked the two levers back and forth a number of times and made especially sure that the one for the swing was fully pushed in. Probably the directional valve for the swing was not fully actuated and leaking a bit, dumping flow to the return.

Reinstalling the backhoe is easy enough, once one gets things lined up.

So now the M59 is back to being the near perfect all-around TLB, powerful enough for what one needs to do, but still light enough to tow. I have not had any problems with SUDT2 foaming or whatever, at least so far with my machine. After a couple of hours of use the cylinders are hot to the touch, but only maybe 110 or so.

I got my L39 back after the fire.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/247095-l39-electrical-fire-bad-but.html

After repair,
Fuel gage reads 3/4 full with full tank,

MPH/KPH does not indicate speed.

But the worst thing is my once relatively mighty L39 swing is acting just like your M59's symptoms, i.e. Slow & very weak force in the swing.
Where is this directional lever? I never had my BH off.

 

[TBarD]

Re: M59 hydraulics got slow and weak. Now My L39 is doing same after fire?

I got my L39 back after the fire.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/247095-l39-electrical-fire-bad-but.html

After repair,
Fuel gage reads 3/4 full with full tank,

MPH/KPH does not indicate speed.

But the worst thing is my once relatively mighty L39 swing is acting just like your M59's symptoms, i.e. Slow & very weak force in the swing.
Where is this directional lever? I never had my BH off.

Hi - Bummer about these things not reading right. Given the bundle of wires I saw I am not surprised of anyone outside of the factory would have a hard time getting it all wired back up correctly. Given the shop manual it might be possible to fix these things, although since they are fairly minor it may not be worth it.

The L39 also has these directional levers (I have the operators manual for the L39 as well as for the M59). If you look behind the seat there should be a platform (where your feet go with the seat reversed) which swings up. Below you will see the 3pt hitch, pto, and three quick disconnects for the backhoe to the right. Above all this there are two levers, left and right, with a 90 degree bend in them pointing down. These need to be pushed in fully for the backhoe. The one on the left is for the swing. There should probably be instructions printed on the tractor housing explaining this, at least I think there are on mine. Just exercise at least the left one a few times, in and out, and leave it fully pushed in. That worked for me at least!

 

[rScotty]

Re: M59 hydraulics got slow and weak. Now My L39 is doing same after fire?

here are two levers, left and right, with a 90 degree bend in them pointing down. These need to be pushed in fully for the backhoe. The one on the left is for the swing. There should probably be instructions printed on the tractor housing explaining this, at least I think there are on mine. Just exercise at least the left one a few times, in and out, and leave it fully pushed in. That worked for me at least!

Great description. I'll add that exercising and pushing them in also worked for mine. Glad you got the L39 back operating. These big Kubotas continue to be a sort of little known "cult" machine. As TbarD says, they are light enough to tow (just), and big enough to do real work.
Only thing I would add is that the oem factory workshop manuals have a way of not being available forever. Expensive, but nice to have.
rScotty

 

[mike69440]

As I lose things like manuals, I learned to make a .pdf and right there on page 46 if I remember correctly are the two levers.

All they have to be is pulled out a 1/4" and the BH functions go down the toilet. Anyway Pushing in those pesky levers got the BH all fixed and the dealer will pick up tractor next week to get the Intellipanel functions looked at. The self leveler lever is stuck too; probably rusted sitting outside at the dealer for 2 Months.

PS I could use at least a M59 for this work.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-worlds-strongest-kubota-bucket-custom-2.html

 

[TBarD]

As I lose things like manuals, I learned to make a .pdf and right there on page 46 if I remember correctly are the two levers.

All they have to be is pulled out a 1/4" and the BH functions go down the toilet. Anyway Pushing in those pesky levers got the BH all fixed and the dealer will pick up tractor next week to get the Intellipanel functions looked at. The self leveler lever is stuck too; probably rusted sitting outside at the dealer for 2 Months.

PS I could use at least a M59 for this work.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...-worlds-strongest-kubota-bucket-custom-2.html

Well after at least three of us had this problem, the first thing to check if there are problems with the backhoe hydraulics will be the directional levers (although it doesn't sound like this was the problem Hersheyfarm was having at the start of this thread - I would check though, it could be related!).

I haven't had a problem with the self leveler lever yet, but the loader hydraulic master disconnect lever/switch is stuck (on, fortunately), and the front aux on/off push button is also stuck in the on position. Since it is all on, everything works and I will wait until the off season to fix these things. It appears that the loader lever controls need some regular maintenance and probably need to be kept covered if possible during storage.

That is a big rock you have in the bucket! I can confirm that the M59 can handle a full pallet of block which is probably even a bit heavier. I just had 35 pallets of block delivered for a retaining wall. They are about 3K lbs each. The M59 has no problem lifting and moving them, although it is a bit light in the back even with the backhoe on. I could spin the rear tires on a grade when carrying a pallet, making it necessary to engage the front axle.

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Is there anyway to keep the m59 hydro oil from being infused with air? I think its a big problem of mine. My tractor starts off digging good but loses power after it is worked(still!) So I took a small sample of fluid after being used and put it in a clear plastic container. It was milky with air. After it set a couple of days it was normal looking, no air. So the foaming has to be bad. I am running the new synthetic Kubota fluid. Maybe change to new fluid?