Winches Logging winch on B7100

[Baby Grand]

I'm taking a slightly different approach. I have been in acquisition mode for the past few months. My most recent purchase is a pair of double sheave block and tackle big enough to handle the 300' of 5/8 polyester rope that I have. Also in my inventory are two of those TS snatch Blocks, a 60' section of 1" nylon rope and a snatch block that is sized for the big rope.

The plan is to use the block and tackle to pull some big windfall hardwoods out of my ravine. I'll use the TS snatch blocks to route the 5/8 line to a flat, level spot where I can pull with the tractor. Eventually, I'd like to set up a PTO driven capstan winch so I don't have to move the tractor to move the log. Finding a good capstan winch to adapt to PTO drive has been tough.

I'd really prefer to have a Farmi or similar winch made for logging, but I have other priorities for the cash these days. If I can demonstrate the financial benefits of heating with wood vs fuel oil to The Plant Manager, I suspect the logging winch might be a little more likely.

-Jim

 

[Kevinc2004]

That Cable that you are refering to is known as STRAND. It is the horizontal line that runs pole to pole beside the road that tha Telephone cable is lashed to. It is very strong.

 

[easygo]

The plan is to use the block and tackle to pull some big windfall hardwoods out of my ravine. I'll use the TS snatch blocks to route the 5/8 line to a flat, level spot where I can pull with the tractor. Eventually, I'd like to set up a PTO driven capstan winch so I don't have to move the tractor to move the log.

-Jim

That is the same thing I have been using for a few years now and it works well as long I have enough room to drive the tractor forward in a straight line. I use nylon rope because it is easy to tie a knot into. Poly rope is far less stretchy but I believe it slips out of a knot easier. I have two snatch blocks that I sometimes rig into a 2:1 block and tackle and it works quite well. Takes time to rig it up especially when you have to change the position of the block during the pull. I have a loop in one end of the rope that I just hang onto a hook in the end of the logging chain and a double half hitch tied to a large shackle that is on the draw-bar. After a real hard pull the half hitches tend to bind up pretty good but not impossible to untie. I use 1/2" nylon rope and that is enough to stop my tractor (B7800) with the wheel still turning. This rope has the tensile strength of 6400 lbs. It has not broken during a pull but I imagine after 4 seasons of use it will be time to get another 100ft length for about $35.

 

[Baby Grand]

Easygo,

Your message is encouraging - it helps to know that someone else out there is making it work! I know it'll be more work than using a proper winch, but it does fit my present budget.

Just to clarify - I'm using 5/8 double braided polyester, not polypropylene. Polyester ties like manila, has much less stretch than nylon (much less whiplash when it lets go) and is stronger and holds a knot much better than polypropylene. In spite of my confidence in the hardware, I still plan to attach some king of chain link fence type barrier to my ROPS just in case I "separate" a line during a pull.

Instead of using the 2 half hitches, try a bowline next time - they are much easier to untie after exposed to a strong, applied load.

-Jim

 

[Bluelick]

Hey Jim,
I like the idea of the chain link fence on the ROPS, I was thinking of something like that also. Share a picture if you get that set up, I'd like to see it.

 

[Baby Grand]

Hey Jim,
I like the idea of the chain link fence on the ROPS, I was thinking of something like that also. Share a picture if you get that set up, I'd like to see it.

Will do. I hope to get out in the woods this weekend, weather permitting. Not sure how practical it will be with 24" of wet snow out there and no chains on my wheels, but nothing ventured ... nothing stuck, right?

Keep us up to date on your skyline. That could actually work in an area that I have no hope of getting near with the tractor on the back side of my property. Deep stream ravine with very unstable soil.

-Jim

 

[easygo]

Jim,

Your tractor is at least 1000lbs heavier then mine so be careful. I'm sure there are ways to part rope I just have not managed it yet.

I have a bowline on the end of the line but the half hitches I tie on the bite. I try to start my pull as close to the tree as possible and most often it is between 30-80ft from the stump. I believe I might have used the entire 100ft of rope 2 or 3 times in the past years, when I was pulling down hung up tree and I had to be that far away or had rigged up the block and tackle. I think you will find that it is cumbersome to drive the tractor in a position where you can tie the very end of the line to the draw bar or shackle and the other end to the log. Be sure to tie it to something smooth with no sharp edges, but I imagine you know that.

 

[CANdiyMXER]

I have been looking at a way to handle trees at our property for over a year now. At first it was easy just to pull them with the tractor as they were close to the road. Now I am trying to get the ones further in.

I looked at the capstan winch and thought it was a great idea as it has a multitude of different uses and is very light and portable, great for off site as well. I think it is a great product, but not suitable in the end for me.

I also looked at using a Milemarker hydraulic winch, but when i added up all the other costs; frame/blade, pump, flow and pressure restrictors, I was looking at an expensive, but slow final solution.

I then started looking at PTO logging winches. A lot more than I wanted to spend for casual use but a lot sturdier and safer. I have a 50HP MX 5000 and purchased a Farmi JL 450. It matches the tractor and can't overpower it. That is important as a winch exerts a lot of shock load and twisting to the tractor. In a heavy pull, it will jerk when the log hits an obstruction and raise the front wheels a couple of inches. I would be concerned about the stress a winch would put on a smaller tractor and whether the winch would be strong enough to get the log to the tractor. When stuff happens with a winch it happens fast!

I woud suggest the capstan winch, as it is best bang for the buck and can't damage your tractor. If your tractor gets stuck you can pull it and your load out...front or backwards, something my winch can't do. .

 

[Bluelick]

I learned a knot many years ago when working for a furniture moving company that I have used a lot. It is of course very good for securing loads, but also works well for taking up slack, and holds well while also being easy to untie. It's also going to be hard to describe, I'm afraid, and a quick search did not turn up an image or video on the web. So I'll give it a try.

After securing the far end to the log, run the line around whatever you are going to tie it to (the tractor) and bring the loose end back along the line until you have used up most of the loose end. Then take the line (not the loose end) and tie a slipknot in the line, so that the "pull" end of the slipknot is toward the tractor. Now you have a slipknot loop in the line, and you run the loose end of the rope through the loop of the slipknot. Pull the loose end back toward the tractor until it is tight, then tie a half hitch slipknot around the line.

This really needs a video! Sorry, hope it wasn't too confusing.

 

[Baby Grand]

I learned a knot many years ago when working for a furniture moving company that I have used a lot. It is of course very good for securing loads, but also works well for taking up slack, and holds well while also being easy to untie. It's also going to be hard to describe, I'm afraid, and a quick search did not turn up an image or video on the web. So I'll give it a try.

After securing the far end to the log, run the line around whatever you are going to tie it to (the tractor) and bring the loose end back along the line until you have used up most of the loose end. Then take the line (not the loose end) and tie a slipknot in the line, so that the "pull" end of the slipknot is toward the tractor. Now you have a slipknot loop in the line, and you run the loose end of the rope through the loop of the slipknot. Pull the loose end back toward the tractor until it is tight, then tie a half hitch slipknot around the line.
This really needs a video! Sorry, hope it wasn't too confusing.

Sounds like a trucker's hitch (goes by another name, haymaker, I think) - you can use it like a pulley to multiply your pull. One of the old hands at the lumberyard/building supply place where I worked many moons ago showed it to me. I used it to secure plywood, dimension lumber, pallets of shingles, etc to the flatbed Mack I drove before the company broke down and bought us some binder straps. The manila rope I got from the company hardware store, so they didn't mind the expense. They ran a lean operation.

Trucker's hitch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

YouTube - How to Tie Rope Knots : How to Tie a Trucker's Hitch Knot

 

[Bluelick]

Yes, that's it, one of the most useful knots I know although I didn't know it by that name, which is why I couldn't find it apparently. One other advantage is that you don't have to pass the end through the first loop to make it fast a shown in the youtube video. You can just pull a loop of the loose end through and tie it around, so that if you are working with a very long rope you don't have to fool with pulling the whole length of it through the loop to tie it off. Thanks for posting those links!

 

[Rod in Forfar]

If the little tractor will physically carry the winch, it will certainly have enough power to pull logs to the road with it. Then you'll need to handle them some other way, though. It won't skid them with the winch installed. Too heavy.

The advantage of the short tractor is its ability to turn sideways on a narrow road. Its disadvantage is its propensity to do the same thing without warning on slight slopes when overloaded at the back. Counterweights will be essential to handle the weight of the winch.

In a couple of sessions last fall I skidded my winter's firewood out to the road with the rig in the photos. This winch is an 8000 pound model, second from the largest the company markets. It's way too heavy for the tractor, but the blade digs itself in and the tractor doesn't slide around on a moderate pull. Common sense and a light touch are indicated, however.

Normally I use the winch on a Massey Ferguson 35 but the clean exhaust, vented forward, on the Bolens is much more pleasant to work around than the relatively dirty rear flow from the Perkins in the Massey.

The cable reaches 165 feet, and your tractor's pto and the gentle clutch on the winch should do the job for you if the little guy can move the winch into position.

 

[Bluelick]

Thanks for that post, Rod. What is the pto hp and the rated lift capacity of your Bolens? And which model Fransgard is that?

Skyline notions notwithstanding, I'm going to continue to keep an eye out for a great deal on a small logging winch, although they seem to be much more rare here in KY than farther north.

 

[Bobm]

Horsepower is almost a non-issue using a bona fide Scandinavian logging winch. Your B7100 will have adequate HP for most situations. Conversely, you will likely NOT have adequate 3PH lift capacity...while you could lift something like a Farmi 351, I don't believe the B7100 would lift that winch when you had a log fully skidded in, and were ready to lift the winch + log, and proceed "down the road". Your front wheels would be heaven bound. Lots of folks use logging winches with smaller tractors...and then skid (with winch lifted and log attached) by using left or right rear brake to "steer"...not safe though!

The tractor horsepower ratings given for most Scandinavian winches is largely based upon the weight of a tractor - tractor weight increases relative to the size of the tractor. A front loader is a MUST when using any skidding winch. Common sense dictates that one must counteract the combined weight of the lifted winch + log on the rear with equivalent front end weight of the tractor.

Of course, you stated that actual skidding was not a primary concern...only getting the log to the tractor is the issue. If that truly is the primary objective, something similar to the Farmi 290 or 351 would be a very nice tool. If the stock 165' feet of cable was not sufficient, you could always use smaller diameter cable and accordingly have significantly longer cable length capacity. I have seen 351's using over 400' of smaller diameter cable....instant low lead system! Do be aware that if you do load up the drum with cable, and do not usually use that much cable, that the effective diameter of the cable drum increases, and accordingly decreases the line pull. The manufacturer stated line pull on a drum winch is based upon just a few wraps of cable on the drum...not a drum fully loaded with cable. It is for this reason that many loggers use lesser cable lengths - largely based upon their usual log to tractor or skidder pull distance.

Despite what others have stated in this thread...the winch will not impart significant forces onto your relatively small tractor...when the winch is in actual use, it is in a fully lowered position, and the winch's butt plate will contact the soil. The tractor's 3PH is, in essence, just holding the winch in a vertical position. By virtue of the relatively high pull point on most winches, the downward force on the winch will anchor the winch...you can "bury" a winch in this manner, thus further lessening the importance of the weight of the tractor.

Also, others have stated that "things happen quickly" with a winch. Perhaps they were referring to a positive engagement (geared) winch...but certainly not with a better Scandinavian winch using an internal clutch to transmit PTO power. If things are happening too quickly, common sense was not in use. Keep your PTO RPM's low...you don't need them for HP! If you need more power, then...and only then... increase your engine RPMs. Most long time users of 3PH winches use them at a near idle. If something is happening (log hung up on stump, log hung up on bank, tractor front end heaven bound), just lessen your pull on the engagement rope...things will go back to normal...and in a predictable manner.

The reality is that one can meter the line pull of a Scandinavian winch with suprising accuracy. Want to move that log one inch...no problem...just pull lightly on the winch rope and slip the winch clutch. Don't worry about frying the winch clutch in doing this either...I have NEVER seen a winch clutch fry with prudent long term use. The large backing plate on the winch clutch acts as an effective heat sink.

Hope this helps out. I've been using 3PH logging winches and arches for over 30 years. I suggest a larger tractor with FEL if you are going to actually skid logs. Above all, BE CAREFUL.

 

[Bluelick]

Thanks for this very helpful information. I was surprised to see that you are in Indiana. I am in Kentucky and these winches seem very scarce around here, much more common in the northeast. Given my limited use, it doesn't make much sense to buy a new one and I don't know if I'll ever see a small one around here used. But who knows. There is an equipment auction over in London Ky on Saturday...

 

[Bobm]

I'll bet you find a small used winch sooner or later. There are actually quite a few 3PH winches in use in the greater Ohio valley. Just within a few miles of my place, I know of at least a dozen. I suggest haunting ebay, craig's list, etc. I have a friend who may be selling his 7000 lb Igland winch - if he finally decides to part with it I'll contact you via PM.

btw, the B7100 is a nice machine...deceptively powerful for its size. I had one and loved it...stepped up to a B7200 which I still have. Three cylinders make good rotational sense.
I have used a Farmi JL-410 on my B7200 just for odd pulls. No problems...but wouldn't want to (nay, couldn't) pull anything through the woods with it. Just the weight of the JL-410 was about all the B7200 could handle!

Up until about 1980, Farmi made some beautiful small winches without steel shells...in other words, the clutch, drum and other innards were fully exposed. Much lighter in overall weight. I still see them in Europe and Scandinavia. They were bulletproof, and those too are still around in our neck of the woods. One of those would make for a nice "yarder" winch for your 7100. I'll keep my ear to the ground for you.

 

[dstig1]

I'll disagree at least a bit, Bob. The Old Farmi winch I have will jerk the tractor (L3130) around like nothing ... if allowed to. Yes you can throttle them pretty well with the rope, and I do that myself, but there is a point that you may be missing after having so much time with these winches: They are not "normal" winches. Most people who think of a winch think of the slow-as-grass-growing type that use gearing to get leverage. Logging winches are orders of magnitude faster than those as they have access to significant PTO horsepressure (neigh!). Newbs will not realize this. For winches, these things fly!

The one I have is much like what you describe - no blade or cage. It's pretty open and "not OSHA happy" by modern standards. They are very hard to find used. I got mine from a friend that essentially gave it to me (OK he got 30 cords of free firewood...) but it took some repair to get it back in shape as it had been a it mangled over the years.

Man that thing needs some paint...

 

[Jeff Lary]

I agree with the above post i have a Farmi JL 250 winch it is on my Kubota L2950 I have 100 plus acers and love the winch we always only had an Allis Chalmers model B and the Winch is great. Now that being said i can not see you lugging my winch around much less using it.This is not a large winch but it would eaisly pull my tractor around like a toy if you dont watch out.The old allis is around 24 hp i think and is 4 times the size of your tractor if it had a 3 point hitch it still would not work as you need locking brakes and really should have a loader bucket to add some down pressure to keep it in position.The Kubota works fine but you still need to take care. He was right when he said these winchs are fast when compared with the run of the mill elec or hydro kind .With my bota at 1800 rpms the log, tree length 1 foot on the butt 50' long will move at a pace that you would need to jog or at the least walk very fast to keep up with. If i were you i would look for some block and tackel or snatch block and line .That way you would be able to control the pull by your foward movement much safer for you i would think, or just bite the bullet and buy a tractor that is made to do this sort of thing....My lawn mower is 8 hp.

 

[Bluelick]

Well, I went to the auction today and sure enough there was a Fransgard V4000 there. Too big for me, so I didn't even stay around to bid on it but I'll call the auctioneer next week to ask what it went for just out of curiosity.

 

[CRThomas]

Greetings all,
As I sink deeper into tractor madness (or bliss) I have begun to think about how to move logs about on my 50 acres of mostly woods/mostly steep land. Purpose is for my annual firewood supply. I'd like to be able to grab logs on the other side of a pretty steep gully (can't drive there) and winch them over to where I can cut them up and load them in my carryall and front carrier (see my other thread about the carrier: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/189233-front-cargo-ballast-box.html). I know the B7100 is small for skidding, but I am more interested in just getting the logs to the tractor rather than pulling them around with the tractor. So, I've been considering an electric winch to mount in my 2" receiver on the front. However, electric winches are limited for the B7100 by the current draw versus the paltry output of the dynamo (it's a 1980's tractor, no alternator). So, I keep looking at this PTO shaft (13 HP output at the shaft) and thinking that's a whale of a lot more
power than the puny electric motor on a winch. I've been reading up on winches, and the smallest I've seen so far is the Norse 190 which calls for 15-30 HP. Does anyone have experience with a logging winch on a tractor this
size? Many thanks!

. I have a which on the back of my tract run with a princes pump on idle with brakes locked it will pull my tractor back word it all so runs my log splitter on idle and it is faster than I am. I got to a knot and reved my tractor to splitting thru a knot and broke my 4 way. Go to Ram splitter and talk to Doug and he will sell you the pump stuff to get you going. They basic lee put me in the fire wood business and I got a 5000 bundle contract today. I am happy as can be