Winches Logging winch on B7100

[Bluelick]

Greetings all,
As I sink deeper into tractor madness (or bliss) I have begun to think about how to move logs about on my 50 acres of mostly woods/mostly steep land. Purpose is for my annual firewood supply. I'd like to be able to grab logs on the other side of a pretty steep gully (can't drive there) and winch them over to where I can cut them up and load them in my carryall and front carrier (see my other thread about the carrier: http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/189233-front-cargo-ballast-box.html). I know the B7100 is small for skidding, but I am more interested in just getting the logs to the tractor rather than pulling them around with the tractor. So, I've been considering an electric winch to mount in my 2" receiver on the front. However, electric winches are limited for the B7100 by the current draw versus the paltry output of the dynamo (it's a 1980's tractor, no alternator). So, I keep looking at this PTO shaft (13 HP output at the shaft) and thinking that's a whale of a lot more power than the puny electric motor on a winch. I've been reading up on winches, and the smallest I've seen so far is the Norse 190 which calls for 15-30 HP. Does anyone have experience with a logging winch on a tractor this size? Many thanks!

 

[alaskakubota]

have you looked at a hydraulic winch? Milemarker makes 3 of them and i think that they would work for your application. You wont need to buy their hook up kit, but I would check with them. I have three of those 10.5k hydro winches up here in alaska and I used one yesterday to pull out my 5740 with 3 cord of wood in the dump trailer. I have the remote control winch on two of them. I have one that I bought in 96 and has been used many many hours and have never had a problem. I am thinking of building one for this tractor in case I get stuck going out to my property. I dont have the backhoe anymore. WInchesplus.com is the cheapest I have seen to buy one.

 

[Egon]

Set yourself up with some snatch blocks, Lots of cable, a load in the bucket and some weight on the back end. Be a lot cheaper and may work better.

Without some anchors the winch will drag the tractor in certain circumstances.

 

[crazyal]

The Farmi 351 requirements are a 17hp tractor, it didn't say PTO just "tractor size". I would think that the weight of your tractor could be more of a problem than PTO HP. I've never used a PTO winch but I have to believe that they will pull the lighter of the two objects (log or tractor) to the other. It does have a blade feature so it digs in when pulling. Maybe others can answer it better but maybe you could use a chain to a tree or stump at the front of your tractor to help keep it from moving.

 

[Bluelick]

Thanks all for the responses. First I should mention, as I neglected to do above, that the tractor is rated at 16 hp, versus the 13 hp of the PTO, and I'm not sure which spec applies to the winch. However, they also don't differentiate between gas and diesel hp and I know the latter has more torque, so that is perhaps a factor also.

I should also mention that the tractor is two wheel drive, with turf tires, so traction would be an issue if I just try to pull with the tractor as Egon suggests, although that is of course the alternative. I've also got some tire chains I need to dig out and see how much modification they'd need to work. Still, the purpose of the exercise is to see if I can pull more than what the tractor itself will pull, and that seems to be the advantage of a logging winch, as well as having a cable that runs out well over 100 feet.

In the event of needing to keep the tractor from moving, there is no shortage of trees to hook it to when winching, but the winches I have looked at are designed to be at least somewhat self-anchoring from what I've read.

As for hydraulic winches, I think that would be very slow with the low volume hydro pump on the B7100 (3 gpm) and I also don't have any remote hydraulic lines/hookups on this tractor so I'd need to add that. That said, I haven't really looked into the hydraulic winches.

From what I've read, a logging winch would meet my needs, but I'd like to know about using one with this size of tractor.

Again, thanks for your help!

 

[MikeInEburg]

I'm in the same boat - have looked at various skidding winches, hydraulic winches, etc. Problem is that I only need to move 10 or 12 trees per year - thus it's difficult to invest a couple thousand. I'm going to try a couple of snatch blocks and 200 feet of wire rope and go "the old fashioned way" first.
Mike

 

[Gordon Gould]

You may be hard pressed to find someone with a logging winch on a 16 hp tractor. In order to make full use of the winches capability you would want your tractor hp to be near the top end of the hp rating of the winch. A log that gets hung up somewhere on a Norse 190 would stop your pto cold in its tracks.
You haven't mentioned what size logs you are after or how far it is across your ravine. That info might bring some ideas.
For example: I have seen electric winches used with tractors by running them off a deep discharge battery placed close to the winch and charged by the tractor. You may even be able to put an alternator on your pto to charge it.
You could put a hydraulic pump on the pto to run a hydraulic winch.
Or ropes pulleys and skylines.

 

[Firefighter Kubota]

If you have a solid Pick up and able to get remotely close, then buy a portable winch set up for your truck reciever.....I recomend the synthetic winch line too... No meat hooks,(loose strands) doesnt get jambed and no bird nesting...Its also got a hight BS for the same size as steel cable...I use a chain chocker for the log...

I use this warn 9500# winch with synthetic rope and use the steel cable I took off it as an extension for the really long pulls...

 

[spike23]

Check other winches too. I too have been looking. Why is the Norse 200+ lbs compared to Wallenstein, Farmi, Hudson, etc. all being in the 450 - 500 lb range?
Chris

 

[Gordon Gould]

You might try contacting a Norse dealer and asking them if they know of someone with a small tractor like yours that you could talk to. Cant hurt.

 

[MowerDude]

This is what you need, although you might need to anchor your tractor down (it really is that powerfull).

Portable Winch Capstan Winch 4x4 Winch Off-Road Winch Tree Service Rule Gas-Powered Winch

Used one a couple years back at remote location (belonged to the land owner). It works as advertised, maybe even better. Super safe too.

If you're handy you could fashion your own capstan winch set up and run it directly off the rear PTO. Then you could pull a house. Just be sure you use the proper ropes and block.

John

 

[Gordon Gould]

Here is a another option. Portable capstan winch by Portable Winch Co. can pull alot of wt. About $1250.

 

[spike23]

Sorry if my post from yesterday seems a bit sketchy. What I'm saying is, look at the weight of different PTO winches before you go with the Norse model.
Norse 190, 15-30 HP, 198 lbs (without the cable)
Wallenstein FX65, 17-45 HP, 470 lbs
Uniforest (from Hud-son) 35E, 16-45 HP, 540 lbs
Farmi JL351P, 17-40 HP, 430 lbs

Don't know why, but something strikes me about that Norse weighing 200 lbs less than the others, I mean, I know the HP range is a bit less, but 200 lbs is a lot... If you do a search for "logging winch" a lot comes up, one in particular, a guy bought a Wallenstein FX65 for his BX25, but he never posted back to say how it was working.

For me, I'm going to end up with an electric winch with a deep cell battery.

 

[Bluelick]

Again, thanks to all of you for joining in this discussion!

I saw the capstan winches in my search and found them intriguing. It begs the question of why not simply mount a capstan directly on the pto? I'm way over my head on that. I know something could be fabricated but I also know that means lots of design, redesign, troubleshooting, and frankly whatever you use for this kind of work has the potential to be very dangerous, and in that regard I see merit in using something that has already been tested and proven, as I'd rather not lose a hand (or worse) finding out that something didn't work as well as planned!

So how about the capstan PTO, anyone aware of this being done, or more particularly a commercial application of such?

One thing I like about the logging winches is the relative simplicity of the design, and those who have them seem to really love them. Making firewood easier, as I am getting older, seems like a good idea and is part of why I wanted to get the tractor, although it's main purpose is mowing which is also why I don't really want a bigger tractor.

I agree with the poster above who notes the problem of laying out thousands of bucks for a piece of equipment that won't be used all that much. However, if I use it for ten years, it's just a few hundred bucks a year (I wonder if my wife will go for that). Love to find a used one.

I did see that there is a 92 foot synthetic winch rope for 8-12K winches on sale on Amazon for $99.
Amazon.com: ProMark Offroad 92' Blue Synthetic Winch Rope for 8k-12k Self Recovery Winches SK: Home Improvement

That rope, or a couple of them, along my 30-year collection of chokers, chains and cables, and some snatch blocks could do a lot I suppose, just a fair bit of rigging.

I'll try to get some pictures of the lay of the land. A big chunk of my property is up the mountainside on the far side of the ravine. I don't want to log it, but when trees blow down I hate to see them just rot. A few years back I rolled some big hickory rounds down the mountain, split them in the creek bed with a maul and wedges into pieces I could lift, then carried them up the steep part of the bank to where I could load them into the buggy on my riding mower. It was not practical, but was great exercise. It was also a few years ago!

Skylines...geez, I like the sound of that! Anybody done skylines?

 

[easygo]

I would think that if any winch the Norse 190 would be a good match for your tractor. I'm pretty sure that is about the target tractor size (in design) for that particular winch that has a pull rating of about 4400 lbs on the first wrap of cable.
As you said you would not drag the logs with the tractor but cut them up and stack them on a carry-all. The plate on the bottom of the winch would dig into the ground and stop the winch from dragging the tractor backwards. If a log is too big you could just winch out shorter sections. I just recently read that a guy hooked up a way oversized winch behind a small tractor like yours. It winched in logs just fine but he had no way of dragging them with the tractor. He mentioned that he uses the winch on a larger machine but did it just to try.

 

[easygo]

Here is a link to that post:
www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/188035-norse-190-logging-winch-questions.html#post2143053

 

[Bluelick]

I have been doing some research on capstans, and this post was interesting as far as going beyond the "all you have to do is" level of information:

I ran a small soil sampling drill rig for seven years. We ran a soil sampling spoon with a 140lb hammer and rope on a capstan. Or a 350lb weight for driving casing. They can be very dangerous. When the rope gets wet it gets very grabby. I have had the rope grab and take the hammer 30' to the top of the boom then break the 1 1/4" rope 10-15 times over the years. Also getting dirt on the rope and feeding it through the drum can make it grab harder. Getting the rope going under a loop on the drum can cause it to pile up on the drum. Also you have to be carefull not to to stand on the free end of the rope. Because if the rope gets caught up in the drum it can and will pull the free end back in and should you foot be cought in a loop of the rope bad things happen.

http://www.arboristsite.com/firewood-heating-wood-burning-equipment/94045.htm

 

[Bluelick]

I also ran into a great deal on some 5/8-inch cable on CraigsList, at 10 cents a foot, so I bought a 200 foot cable and a 100 foot cable. Now I'm thinking about how to rig up a skyline. I've been doing some research, and most of the information available seems to be from commercial logging, and I would be doing a much different scale of course just getting my firewood in. I'll let you all know if and how this goes forward.

By the way, the gentleman I got the cable from stall had a good bit more of it the last time I talked to him:
Steel Cable 5/8"
He is about an hour south of Lexington KY.

The cable is guy wire cable from cell phone towers, and has a very good coating of galvanizing on it. It is quite stiff, however, not like wire rope for winches. It has relatively few strands, each strand about the size of the lead on a number 2 pencil if not bigger. If anyone has information on working load of this kind of cable, I'd like to know.

 

[Glen Watkins]

Man that cable sounds real rigid. In his ad he says NOT soft winch cable. Might be real hard to work with! Probably kinks easy too. Good luck.

 

[Bluelick]

I'm figuring to use the heavy, stiff cable as a stationary line with a trolley on it, and to pull the logs in with a second "retrieval" line.

The kind of rig I have seen pictures of has a trolley or pulley on the stationary line, with a second pulley attached below that, rigged as a snatch block (or block and tackle with multiple pulleys). The retrieval rope or cable raises the log and also brings it in. So if there is more resistance, it raises the log more. I would use another more flexible cable or combination of cables, ropes and chains, for the retrieval, not the stiff cable which certainly would be hard to work with.

I think this approach has the potential to do less damage to the forest floor than just dragging the logs, and might be done with much less power, so that I might be able to do this effectively with a small electric winch on the tractor. The electric winch would also be handy for stringing the stationary line.

Tractor Supply has a snatch block that I think will accommodate the 5/8 cable and would work as a trolley:
Champion Power Equipment Snatch Block, 16000 lbs. - 1834177 | Tractor Supply Company
I'd be interested in any other or better sources for a pulley that size.

It might not be the most practical way, or the easiest, but it seems intriguing. I'd need to be able to get a fair bit of wood from one setup to be worth the rigging time.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has done this sort of thing.