Loader letter arrived!

[Limecuda]

Like stated earlier, I have no doubt most here could do it. My new CK30 came with this already installed on the loader. It doesn't look too intensive. If General Motors, Ford, DCX, etc. issued a recall/warranty work would they give you the part to fix it or would they insist a certified dealer install/replace the part? They also place time restraints on when to get some of this work completed and require the consumer to bring their vehicle in. After the time lapse dealers still will sell you the part and allow you to fix the issue but at that point it is your responsibility.

I just hope that for those with the cracks it is indeed a fix. I would like to assume since I already had this kit installed when new that my tractor will not see these cracks appear.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Kioti has hidden behind this "cosmetic" argument the whole time.

. . . The fact, and I think Kioti is correct on this point, that there have not yet been any structural failures in the KL120/130 loaders does not prove this is a cosmetic defect.

At least one dealer has told me that he has seen a torque tube cracked well beyond the inspection cover plate indicating that the cracks will progress.

My loader cracks have certainly progressed and at the current rate of progression about half the torque tube will be cracked by the time I have 300-400 hours on the tractor. That means this cracking will certainly not be merely a cosmetic issue a few years from now (when conveniently all the affected loaders will be well out of warranty).

Ed I think you (and several other Kioti owners) have taken the "high road" through this entire process and remained on topic since it was pointed out well over a year ago.

It also seems clear that once stress cracks in metal start, they continue to grow over time as the metal is subjected to stress. It seems reasonable that there have been no catastrophic failures. It also seems reasonable to suggest that there have been no catastrophic failures YET, because none have been used long enough.

But as you clearly point out, and as a dealer pointed out to you, the cracks grow. As that occurs they do become structural cracks.

One thing that you may want to consider. You wrote

at the current rate of progression about half the torque tube will be cracked by the time I have 300-400 hours

But it is actually reasonable to presume the cracks will progress FASTER the more you use the tractor. Simply put, when you started using the tractor you had 100% of your torque tube working to keep the loader 'square' but as the cracks start to grow, you have less torque tube doing its job so you have more flex. As the tube flexes it cracks a little bit more. The more flexing the more cracking. The more cracking the less rigid. You end up with an acceleration cycle where the cracks should grow faster as the tube becomes more and more flexible.

Obviously what you lift, how you dig, and other factors will affect each individual user's loader.

 

[IslandTractor]

I'm not an engineer so I don't know if Bob's suggestion that the cracks will grow faster is correct. I have had the same thought but accepting the principle that "a little knowledge is dangerous" I would defer to the mechanical and metal engineers on that point.

I would add to this discussion that I have been PM'd now by four excellent and customer focused Kioti dealers who, even though I did not buy my tractor from them have offered to go out on a limb and provide me with the repair kit even though it is against Kioti policy. I have not asked my own (non TBN active) dealer to do that yet. I have not taken any of them up on this offer as I don't think it is fair for them to take a risk (presumably if Kioti wanted to they could cause problems especially as the dealers would need to prove which serial number was involved). This issue needs to be addressed forthrightly by Kioti not by big hearted dealers willing to stick their necks out for a customer.

 

[lcisled]

If I am reading this right, you have 4 options.
1) transport tractor to dealer and have no cost fix installed
2) Work with dealers and install yourself outside of policy.
3) Do not transport and do not fix
4) Wait until September, purchase the parts from a dealer and install yourself.

To me it looks like there are people making their own option 5) Continue to rant about this problem.

To me, life is too short, and I have other things to do. I am going to get my loader fixed and move on. Oh, and by the way, 500+ hours and no cracks. As someone before wrote, if it did I would weld it.

I for one appreciate the Kioti options on this one. Thanks to great dealers.

 

[IslandTractor]

If I am reading this right, you have 4 options.
1) transport tractor to dealer and have no cost fix installed
2) Work with dealers and install yourself outside of policy.
3) Do not transport and do not fix
4) Wait until September, purchase the parts from a dealer and install yourself.

To me it looks like there are people making their own option 5) Continue to rant about this problem. .

Did it ever occur to you that the only reason options 1, 2 and 4 exist is that people have ranted? Kioti would have been more than happy to sweep this "cosmetic" thing under the rug.

Maybe we need a new badge: I'm a Ranter and proud of it.

 

[thcri]

Murph,

I don't think the example you give applies here.

I am not going to disagree. But my story is somewhat about how waivers just don't work anymore and how business's must be very careful. I have not doubt that the majority of the people can fix or do the repairs.


murph

 

[Dodgeram]

Like KiotiJohn, this will be my last post on TBN.
To Bob Skurka,
I will bow to your knowledge of Mechanical Enigeering. You are most definately more knowledgeable than the Kioti engineers. You sure do presume a lot though. P/S...Respond to something you know a little about.

To Island Tractor,
You will never be happy. Get a Kubota.
I'm happy with my Kioti.
Farewell!
Tom

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Did it ever occur to you that the only reason options 1, 2 and 4 exist is that people have ranted? Kioti would have been more than happy to sweep this "cosmetic" thing under the rug.

Maybe we need a new badge: I'm a Ranter and proud of it.

First of all I don't see that you have ranted or had a shrill tone in any of your posts. Seems to me that you (and Highbeam, and several others) have taken a very moderate and firm position that is reasonable.

Secondly, of the options that exist, clearly #2 is NOT authorized by Kioti and NOT supported by them.

Third, with regard to this comment:

no cracks. As someone before wrote, if it did I would weld it.

Respectfully I'd have to suggest that just because people own tractors does not mean they own welding equipment.

To Bob Skurka,
I will bow to your knowledge of Mechanical Enigeering. You are most definately more knowledgeable than the Kioti engineers. You sure do presume a lot though. P/S...Respond to something you know a little about.

I have owned & operated various types industrial machines for 30+ years. I've worked as a hobby welder for 25 years. There is no secret to stress cracks. In fact, they are predictable.

To Island Tractor,
You will never be happy. Get a Kubota.

Wow. Apparently if you own a Kioti you are not allowed to objectively be concerned about problems?



To everyone and nobody in particular: There is a prevailing attitutude on TBN (in all forums) that people who own tractors somehow also need to own trailers to haul them, welders, guns of all sorts, have a large dog, be members of the G.O.P. and have a barn full of tools. Those people who fit that mold are often condescending toward those people who do not. Honestly when reading posts here on TBN it is pretty obvious that many people moved from the city or suburbs, now own a few acres and a tractor but do not farm or lead an otherwise traditional rural life. I do not see how it should become a prerequisite for people who own tractors to also own trailers, welders, etc etc. In fact IslandTractor apparently does not own those things but that does not make the cracks in his loader less important.

 

[PaPaGus]

They should let everyone put the...upgrade on themselves with a CD instructions if requested. People will need to check the plumbing under it periodically and should have the knowledge of doing so...I Think

 

[twigpig]

Yeah !
What Island Tractor, Bob Skurka and Papa Gus said. There are probably a bunch of other posters I agree with here but my attention span aint what it used to be.

 

[IslandTractor]

To Island Tractor,
You will never be happy. Get a Kubota.
I'm happy with my Kioti.
Farewell!
Tom

I don't know why you have such a twist in your shorts over this Tom. I also like my Kioti. I like it a lot. It is the corporate management I have a problem with for explicitly ignoring a significant number of their customers for no reason other than their own (pick one: incompetence or selfishness. The Korean company that puts these tractors together gets kudos from me. The US based management is who is failing this customer.

I've probably posted more positive things about my CK20 and it's capabilities on TBN than anyone in the year since KJ left. I do not however think it is my job to be an apologist for corporate mismanagement or to justify their blatent disregard of customers. I really don't know who is calling the shots at Kioti but they will certainly never win any accolades for their deft management of a product defect or for customer relations.

I have no intention of getting rid of my Kioti. The love it or leave it argument has never impressed me as anything other than a sign of failure by whomever uses it. If there are constructive criticisms to be discussed then the debate should continue. If you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

Adios.

 

[GregMVT]

It seems a lot of us are concerned about the cost of transporting our tractors to the dealer, loss of time, or not being able to do the repair ourselves. I am not a big fan of Kioti customer DISERVICE. Back in the fall of 2005 it took them 9 weeks to repair the synchros on the shuttle shift, most of it was waiting for parts!! There is a thread about it somewheres in the archives. My dealer, Moore's Corners in Granville, NY, is planning on visiting each customer once the repair kit is out for the 130 loaders. This will mean only one trip to the customer and they can go get a lot more done in one day compared to bring each one into the shop. I am not sure if they have started doing that now that the kit for the 120 loaders is out, it's been over a month since I talked with them about it. At that time they were installing the kit when the tractor was brought in for service/work. This is something other dealers might consider.

Greg

 

[MikePA]

My dealer, Moore's Corners in Granville, NY, is planning on visiting each customer once the repair kit is out for the 130 loaders.

I'd think this is a great opportunity for the dealers to;

1. Create customer good will.
2. Sell other services, parts and accessories while at the customer location.

 

[thcri]

My dealer, Moore's Corners in Granville, NY, is planning on visiting each customer once the repair kit is out for the 130 loaders. This will mean only one trip to the customer and they can go get a lot more done in one day compared to bring each one into the shop.
Greg

Sounds to me like that is a good dealer.

 

[NIXON]

Like KiotiJohn, this will be my last post on TBN.
To Bob Skurka,
I will bow to your knowledge of Mechanical Enigeering. You are most definately more knowledgeable than the Kioti engineers. You sure do presume a lot though. P/S...Respond to something you know a little about.

To Island Tractor,
You will never be happy. Get a Kubota.
I'm happy with my Kioti.
Farewell!
Tom

Wow, what a great last post to remember You By. No doubt You'll be fondly remembered .

 

[Dmace]

Got my letter Friday, now I need to decide on whether or not it's worth my time to get the kit installed. In 6 months of hard use the cracks haven't budge and I doubt they will, so I might just keep working it all summer and decide in September (before the deadline) if I want it or not.

 

[HODAK]

If I am reading this right, you have 4 options.
1) transport tractor to dealer and have no cost fix installed
2) Work with dealers and install yourself outside of policy.
3) Do not transport and do not fix
4) Wait until September, purchase the parts from a dealer and install yourself.

To me it looks like there are people making their own option 5) Continue to rant about this problem.

To me, life is too short, and I have other things to do. I am going to get my loader fixed and move on. Oh, and by the way, 500+ hours and no cracks. As someone before wrote, if it did I would weld it.

I for one appreciate the Kioti options on this one. Thanks to great dealers.

Looks like some fairly good options.

Island, why not take advantage of one of the offers from those four dealers? What has your dealer offered? Save yourself some stress and just buy the darn thing. There isn't anything wrong with ranting as you say, but there is a point also where you just need to move on. Good Luck............

 

[IslandTractor]

Island, why not take advantage of one of the offers from those four dealers? .

I appreciate the advice but something about that sticks in my craw. If there is ANY potential liability to be absorbed by whomever helps me with a loader fix that does not involve me shelling out big bucks and time for unnecessary transportation, I feel it should be Kioti. I don't personally think there is more than half an iota of risk here and perhaps on that basis I should stop charging windmills but the idea that Kioti would rather have some nice guy dealer put his/her meal ticket on the line to help me when there is a large corporation that dodges their obligation to a customer just seems wrong.

Several of us have called Kioti and asked that the program allow owner installation but to no avail. This issue of needing to transport the tractor to a dealer far away is something that Kioti is well aware of and specifically decided to ignore or disallow. How they can in good faith expect the customer to absorb those costs (and mine are nothing compared to Sodamo's) tells me something I really don't like to think about their corporate ethos. If I am wrong about something I think I should bear the brunt of fixing it. If the dealer did something wrong then the dealer should own up and fix it. In this case it is a design defect that Kioti owns and should fix in a manner that is not grossly inconvenient to their customers. I wouldn't complain about having to drive my tractor 20 miles down the highway. There are others, like myself however, who are going to be forced to spend serious time and money to get this stupid reinforcing plate installed. No one thinks this is a tricky installation. Kioti hasn't send their dealers to special classes or probably done anything other then provide the parts. How hard can it be?

To me this has become a bellwether issue on Kioti's corporate responsibility, responsiveness and customer service. They are not getting good marks in any of those areas relating to this loader issue. I think I was the second or third person to report a loader being cracked after Highbeam alerted us all to the problem. That means this has been going on for over 13 months. (By the way I still have not received a letter. ) After all that time and patience to be told to shell out $500 to transport an otherwise healthy tractor off an island and then truck it 80 miles to the dealer is asking the customer to bear 99% of the cost of fixing Kioti's design error even though the loader was under warranty.

I'm not certain that this type of company policy is unprecedented in the tractor world and I don't know that Kubota, NH, JD, Mahindra, TYM, MF etc etc might not be just as bad, but it is certainly not up to a standard of customer service expected in the USA in the 21st century. Maybe there are some windmills that need charging in order to change Kioti's and other companies policies on this sort of thing. I certainly wish that while shopping for a tractor I had information that would have indicated the type of customer service I could expect from the tractor manufacturer/importer. I think we focus a lot on TBN on looking for a good dealer but there are some things that a dealer cannot control that relate to the manufacturer. Maybe we need more threads in this and other forums to discuss this and similar issues with other companies (Kubota and it's cracking fenders comes to mind) to allow TBN shoppers the advantage of seeing how past upgrades/recalls and "cosmetic" fixes are handled. I love my CK20 but to be honest if there had been information that allowed me to see that, for example, NH had much better customer service, that might have swayed my purchasing decision. Blue's not such a bad color.

So, I don't think I am finished charging windmills. I apologize to my Kioti brethren for whom this is not an issue but for those of us who live remote from our dealer, the types of hassle that this and other simple warranty issues pose are to me worth fighting for. I cannot stand Ralph Nader anymore but it was only due to his dogged and sometime seemingly irrational persistence that led to some important changes in the balance between manufacturers and consumers in this country. I'm not drawing a parallel just accepting the lesson that fighting for a reasonable principle is sometimes inconvenient and boring but still worthwhile in the end.

 

[thcri]

Several of us have called Kioti and asked that the program allow owner installation but to no avail.

Have you talked to your dealer about just getting the parts? You may have said before but there is too many posts to read through but maybe your dealer will just say, here's the parts just fix it.

I'm not certain that this type of company policy is unprecedented in the tractor world and I don't know that Kubota, NH, JD, Mahindra, TYM, MF etc etc might not be just as bad, but it is certainly not up to a standard of customer service expected in the USA in the 21st century.

Unfortunately the others listed above may be no different. I just hope mine never is put to the test. Too bad it is not like the automobile industry where recalls are recalls and the dealers usually fix for you when in the shop.

Just one other comment, I think Kioti has really hurt themselves in the long run especially with forums today that broadcast this stuff all over the place.


murph

 

[Bird]

After all that time and patience to be told to shell out $500 to transport an otherwise healthy tractor off an island and then truck it 80 miles to the dealer is asking the customer to bear 99% of the cost of fixing Kioti's design error even though the loader was under warranty.

Ed, I can understand your frustration and point of view, and I'd probably feel the same way. However, if you stop to think about it . . . I'll bet Kioti's warranty says that you have to return the tractor to a dealer. If so, then you should have known when you bought it that such a thing could happen. I know Kubota's warranty did. If you have a car or pickup that has a problem while under warranty, you have to take it to them, even if it's a factory recall. And yep, it's a little easier to drive a car or pickup to the dealer than to take a tractor 80 miles to a dealer. But how would Kioti, or any tractor manufacturer, know how far a buyer was going to take his tractor from the dealership. Should they pay transportation for someone who lives one mile from the dealership, 50 miles, 80 miles, 200 miles? Where do you draw the line? It seems like a good idea for them to pay for, or provide, the transporation, but if it's unlimited, they'd have to raise the price on all their tractors to cover that possibility.

So, yes, I think you're tilting at windmills. I can sympathize with you, but don't know of any good solution.