Flail Mower Let's talk flail mowers

[arrows]

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Yes, I can tell your a city farmer.


1. "Save Your Money"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. "It's your money"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. "Read the entire flail mower thread"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
a. yes its must.
4. Talk to Joel at Earth Tools!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

5. read number one, read number two, read number three, read number four, read number five 6 times.


Do you really have the time, money, will, and good weather to do this????

OK if your starting with two acres I would only invest in a 2 wheel mule like the BCS853 with a rotary plow and the widest BCS flailmower. you can cover a lot of ground with a Berta flail mower and a BCS 853 as long as your willing to invest in the time needed.


The rotary plow on a BCS or Grillo two wheel mule will let you till below the hardpan at 14 inches deep and eliminate compaction every year.

You will need lime and gypsum to dissolve the clay and reduce the acidity of the soil.

Forget about rolling your cover crops they wont stay down unless cut them or you till them in!!!

You can build raised beds with the rotary plow and plow 14 inches deep and till in tall cover crops in one pass.

You need to "spend a lot of time talking to Joel" at Earth Tools to do this the right way.

You can always invest in a four wheel drive Series One JD or a Kubota 1870 later and add implements "as you can afford them".

You may end up with an walk behind German import flail mower that is branded as an ORECK flailmower.
BUT you will be limited as to what you can purchase for attachments for the ORECK Flail Mower being a rotary mower attachment.

You can do a lot of work with a two wheel mule like a BCS gas or diesel or Grillo gas or diesel mule with implements that are used in Europe in many small farms on a daily basis.

If you have a sulky to ride on the mowing is easy and will go quickly if you mow in spirals to recut the brush and grass.

Your going to spend less money this way and will allow you to build a truck farm garden with narrow raised beds that will choke out weeds quickly with the crops as they will grow much quicker blocking out the sun on the ground killing the weed seedlings.

It works, I have done it, I will do it again this coming season with my TroyBuilt tiller.

The whole reason I'm even talking about 4 wheel tractors at all is that when I called EarthTools and described what I wanted to do, they told me to go 4 wheel!! He said I'd be putting in a solid week of tilling from sunup to sundown, just for 1 acre, and that's if the weather cooperates. The guy at EarthTools made me rethink my whole plan and readjust everything for 4 foot beds (+1ft path) and 3pt hitch implements and tractor. Originally, yes, I'd planned everything for the 2-wheeler!

As for saving money... actually it'll come out to be about the same, because I'm using an old $400 chisel plow, the tractors are more like $3000-3500 instead for $4000 for BCS (I'm looking at vintage Ford 660s, etc), the Caroni mower costs about the same as the little Berta, and yes the larger harrow does end up about $4000 but that's offset by the cheaper tillage implement. If I really wanted to save money I could use an old disc harrow for like $300, an option I do not have for the BCS. But then I'd be spending a lot more time in the tractor seat, going back and forth with multiple passes.

I have the time - this will be a fulltime career for me. But I want to make sure that my time is used efficiently. If I'm spending too much time operating machinery that's too small for the job, that's that much less time I'm spending harvesting and selling.

Pam Dawling (who writes for Growing for Market) has been successfully rolling cover crops by turning off the PTO on the flail mower.

 

[CADplans]

I have the time - this will be a fulltime career for me. But I want to make sure that my time is used efficiently. If I'm spending too much time operating machinery that's too small for the job, that's that much less time I'm spending harvesting and selling.

Pam Dawling (who writes for Growing for Market) has been successfully rolling cover crops by turning off the PTO on the flail mower.

Actually,,, the locals that have done this, find the selling part is the BIGGEST time suck,
bigger than the land prep, planting, and harvesting, combined.

My friend and neighbor is Ron Morse, at Virginia Tech.

Google him, he has been studying and promoting crimping for over 30 years.

 

[kimaran]

Can someone recommend the size if pto recommended for flail mower 1/2 or 3/8 I'm using medium chop knives on heavy brush

 

[leonz]

Can someone recommend the size if pto recommended for flail mower 1/2 or 3/8 I'm using medium chop knives on heavy brush

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OK when you say 1/2 and 3/8 a referring to the brush diameter?? What do you mean by medium chop knives??

There are side slicer knives, scoop knives and Italian cast hammer knives and the Chinese made forged hammer knives.

The PTO horsepower required is the rating on the individual Flail Mower Gearbox used to power the final drive and V belt pulleys.

 

[kimaran]

No the girth of the pto

 

[CADplans]

No the girth of the pto

Please restate the question,,,

 

[Fallon]

Not ignoring Leonz plea to rethink your imminent jump into the farming pond, I'll address your questions more directly: A five foot flail would be very reasonably run by a 30hp tractor. The range given should be interpreted to mean the minimum horsepower to effectively mow and the maximum horsepower that the gearbox will tolerate. A 30 hp tractor is right in the sweetspot. Does it mean you have enough power to run quickly through dense four foot grasses in high range?? No. It means that you have enough power to get through that dense grass by traveling slowly and adjusting your travel speed according to the quality of cut you want to leave. I mow similar grass with a 40hp tractor and six foot flail so it is roughly proportional to what you are contemplating. I can do that using the tractor running at 200-400rpm lower than true PTO speed so I have reserve if needed. I am very happy with the flexibility and mowing quality.

My 32hp L3200 (25ish PTO HP) runs my 7' old Ford 917 pretty well, even in taller grass over hood height. I do have to roll a little slower than my 5' rotary cutter, but cover the same ground, if not more because of the extra width. Running slower means a smoother ride for your body & machine. Something closer to your tractors width is more common & a safer call though.

Especially on smaller machines its more of a question if the 3pt can lift it. As long as you have a HST or enough low gears, if you can lift it, you can spin it. You just have to drive a little or a lot slower to keep it spinning at PTO RPM.

 

[Jack Yuan]

I appreciate your points on how to distinguish differences in quality Jack. I'm interested in your limits for balance rotor balance weights, and the reason for the limits. I suspect your comment regarding lost weights my be one reason. That is why I measured my weights. If I lose one I will be able to replace it.

I imagine the rotor is the most critical, expensive and complex part on the mower. I don't know how to evaluate the quality but wonder if centrifugal force gives one indication of how different rotor/blade components influence quality. I used this calculator:

CalcTool: Centrifugal force calculator

...to calculate theoretical centrifugal forces on my mower's rotor.

Assumptions used for the calculations(rotor radius = 2.5"):

DISTANCES (inches from rotor centre to mass centre) and CENTRIFUGAL FORCE for 1g (@2,200RPM):
inches lbf
balance weight: 2.90 0.878917
blade hanger hole: 3.29 0.997116
hammer blade: 6.50 1.96999

MY MOWER COMPONENT WEIGHTS:
left rotor balance weight: 292g
right rotor balance weight: 257g
hanger bolt and nut: 225g

heaviest hammer weight (from my 36 blade sample): 1,070g
lightest hammer weight (from my 36 blade sample): 1,000g


CENTRIFUGAL FORCE (LBF) FOR MY COMPONENTS:

left rotor balance weight(292g): 257 lbf (0.878917 x 292)
right rotor balance weight(227g): 225 lbf (0.878917 x 227)
TOTAL: 482 lbf

HAMMER BLADES:
hanger bolt and nut(225g): 224 lbf (0.997116 x 225)
heaviest blade (1,070g): 2,108 lbf (1.9699 x 1070)
lightest blade (1,000g): 1,970 lbf (1.9699 x 1070)

heaviest blade/bolt: 2,332 lbf
lightest blade/bolt: 2,194 lbf
difference: 138 lbf = largest possible unbalanced force of my 36 blade sample

This may be meaningless if my assumption about centrifugal forces is wrong. However, if not, the data seems to infer:

1. My balance weights compensate for an initial rotor centrifugal imbalance of 482 pounds-force, which might be similar to running with 1/4 broken off a hammer blade. This analyis showed my assumption that the rotor balance weights did not seem significant because they were much lighter than the blades and bolts was incorrect. The bolts/blades are in opposing sets while the rotor weights oppose what may be several manufacturing anomolies along the rotor assembly. My mower has no noticeable vibration, so I like to think they got it right.

2. Island Tractor is correct when saying a 20 g difference in blade weights is likely insignificant--the centrifugal force imbalance is about 40 lbf (1.96999 x 20). He also said losing a blade (or clevis/blade pair for grass blades) is significant. The imbalance if I lose a blade on my mower will be about 2,000 lbs force.

Jack Yuan, some questions to help understand quality control:
1. Rotor balance weights:
a) What is the maximum you accept for rotor balance weights?
b) what are the disadvantages of exceeding these limits?

2. Forged hammer blades:
a) What is the weight for the forged hammer blades you supply?
b) What weight variance do you accept for these blades?

3. Cast hammer blades:
a) what weight range did you see cast blades that made you switch to forged blades?

I'll understand if you prefer not to answer some of the questions. Your previous posts on these and other quality control considerations (such as vent plugs, debris guards, V-belts) have already raised our awareness of items to consider when purchasing equipment. I agree with smilinjak when he stated "Your knowledge from being at the source of the Chinese mowers is irreplaceable."

I've already purchased my mower which has components your quality control rejects. Your advice has shown me how to easily bring my mower close to your standards (except for the rotor). I'm not too concerned because I'm sure the mower is fine for my cutting conditions and limited use.

Thanks for your comments.

Because we can buy gear box from professional gear box factory, so the rotor is the most difficult part for us mower manufacturers.
There is ISO international standard of mechanical vibration, flail mower rotor is G16 grade

so after calculation, your mower, I think you mentioned it is AG model, right? so I called it as BCS model in my factory.

it means the unbalance weight is totally 3 gram on the rotor. This international standard is quite harsh.

So I don't think any mower manufacturer could really make all the mower like this. I bought some foreign brand mowers these years, all of them are top brand in the market. Obviously, different factory set up different standard for their rotor vibration, from 50 gram to 200 gram. Because I don't buy hundreds of these famous brand mowers, and I don't have contact in these foreign factory, so I cannot know their exact standard. But I know the standard of the Chinese mower manufacturers, normally we define it as 100 gram on rotor, but I m sure very few of them execute this strictly. So I set up standard like this:
1. 30 x ISO standard, for example, BCS model, I define it as 90 gram this year(next step is 20X).
2. at most two pcs balance weight block on each rotor end this year(next step is one pcs each end)
3. fully weld balance weight block on rotor end
And the most important thing, I employ third-part person to inspect rotor balancing and record it, to avoid worker's mistake.

I m now use 1240 gram hammer on BCS mower.

For the hammer, I started to use forging hammer on all of my mowers two years ago, because at that time, I found the casting hammer has bigger weight difference than forging hammer. For example the gram hammer on EFGC mower, casting hammer has nearly 35 gram weight difference, forging hammer has nearly 20 gram weight difference. Because forging hammer doesn't increase much cost than casting hammer, so I decided to shift all the mowers to use forging hammer. For the price and technical reason, hammer factories cannot produce very small weight difference as I expected. So I turned to another solution, I set up weight different standard in my factory, worker weigh all the hammers before they assemble on rotor, so the rotor has the hammers in same weight range, each range has 10 gram difference. And I has record for all the mowers used which weight range hammer.

Anyway, I only started this business 3 years, I realize Chinese mower fall behind a lot than foreign top brand mowers, but I m trying to do my best and keep improving, wish I can catch up or get close in some years, there are still 3 or 4 decade before I retire.

 

[leonz]

Please restate the question,,,

I wonder if he means the 1,000 rpm PTO stub 20 spline diameter compared to the 6 spline 540 RPM diameter??

 

[powerscol]

I wonder if he means the 1,000 rpm PTO stub 20 spline diameter compared to the 6 spline 540 RPM diameter??

You know - this one even stumped me. Or could he be referring to the PTO shaft diameter - my new one is triangle shape and bigger than what he is talking about. I do have an old IH square one where the internal shaft is probably 1/2" square. But is bigger not always better?