Kubota L6060 Engine failure

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
Agreed.

Although, as ridiculous as it seems, I can understand Kubota requesting a fuel sample to determine/rule-out fuel as a culprit before making a decision to fund the repairs. To me, that’s Kubota doing their due diligence before making their final decision.
That said, based on the information posted within this thread, I sincerely believe Kubota should pay for the OP repairs in full as a goodwill warranty.

Mike

 

[MHarryE]

Sobering story knowing I have the same model tractor about the same age. First off, what I said before, was for tier 3 when we introduced CRI. I retired during Tier 4 development but one item we did not want to carry forward was our injectors which had delayed several product introductions trying to reach reliability. As I remember, our minimum was near where you were - 3,000 hours. We wanted better but getting to 3,000 was a challenge. Starting Tier 4 development, we had the major suppliers submit injectors for accelerated wear testing. The winner was Denso, by a large margin, and I might be mistaken but I believe Kubota uses a Denso injection system. Also, our engine division told me diesel in Japan is very tough on injection systems and so have been developed for more durability. So I’ve thought of Kubota as best durability and your experience is a downer.

Fuel quality differs all around the world so a worldwide supplier like Kubota needs to design for the worst. That, however, is not a given. When I owned a BMW diesel in Europe, I received a letter from BMW telling be they experienced shorter than expected injector life in cars where the owners used lesser brands. They provided a list of brands to use throughout Western Europe. I have no idea how fuel is supplied in Europe but here in Minnesota all fuel comes from one of 2 Koch Bros refineries no matter which brand it is sold under. Brand additives are added when distributed but the base fuel is the same. I don’t expect Alaska fares much different.

Water - tougher on CRI injectors but they have a separator. I have water separators on my 2 pumps trying to keep my fuel most water free when it still has water. The separator on my L6060 now has the indicator near the drain separator level. At one time I plotted injection pump failures (tier 2) worldwide and used it to plot fuel quality. USA has a wide spread by region - I cannot remember Alaska but I pointed out we needed to design for all. And checking your current fuel - if it’s bad per their standard, will they say one bad tank will ruin a set of injectors? My book says only use #2-D at -10C up and #1-D under -10C. Knowing your weather, you probably use #1 much of your year and a #1/#2 blend during the summer. Our machines leave the factory with a blend.

This doesn’t give you much help toward the fix. I have given you my ideas earlier. I wanted to give you info from my perspective from product support at a division of the largest construction equipment Mfgr.

 

[5030]

What a terrible thread. Sure am glad both my large frame Kubota's are Pre 4 mechanically injected and no frigging computer. In fact the only electronic device on either is a fuel cut solenoid. I'll never purchase any post 4 tractor and it's not just Kubota either, They all suck.

 

[thclimer]

This is a very unfortunate situation for the OP, I'll be watching this thread to understand the final outcome.

 

[ruffdog]

If it were my tractor, I would want the fuel from the tractor tested. What if someone dumped glue or paint in your tractor? You wouldn't want all the new parts to digest the same fuel that damaged the old parts, would you?

 

[s219]

Technically, since the fuel system is past the warranty period, anything Kubota does is going to be goodwill on their part. To me, that means they have the right to test the fuel and do whatever they feel is needed to make the decision. I would not accuse them of stalling or delaying. If you want to press them for a quick decision, they are in their rights to just say no and get it over with.

 

[tradosaurus]

Dear OP, I hate to hear of your saga with your Kubota tractor. A tractor that has been worked like yours in a harsh environment (extreme cold and logging) with no major issues for 6 yrs and 2400 hrs is amazing.

The fact that your are in a remote area with only one dealer support compounds the problem trying to get your tractor fixed. I think most of us in that situation would have had the same result. And with only one dealer you definitely don't want to "burn a bridge".

With your tractor being part of your operation and therefore income, what kind of backup plan can you initiate so that you never lose income based on a non operational tractor? Are there extended warranties for tractors?

If I was going to lose, say, $50k, in income because my tractor wasn't working, $10k to get it operational as quick as possible would have been a no brainer.

The engine was running fine then one morning it stopped running. Initial inspection on my part indicated an injector pump problem. The dealership said that the injector pump should not have failed. It could be anything. bring it in and we will put it on the computer and Identify the problem. They put it on the computer and agreed that the injector pump had failed. After replacing the injector pump, the tractor still wouldn't start. With consultation from Kubota, it was decided that the ECU had failed. it was replaced. Parts and labor by this time was in excess of $6,000. The tractor still would not start. At this point, they are looking at the injectors as also failing. Replacing those would bring the cost for parts and labor to around $10,000. The tractor is just a little over 6 years old with 2,400 hours on it. I have performed all the suggested maintenance as detailed in the Operators Manual. The people I have spoken to with much more experience with diesels than I, have said that they have never heard or seen three major components fail simultaneously like I encountered. I am reaching out to other Kubota owners/operators to see if they have had similar simultaneous/chain reaction failures with the L6060 tractor or other Kubota equipment with this engine.

 

[Username Taken]

US Diesel Fuel just simply sucks. There's no other way to put it.

When Bosch, who makes many of the HPFP's in modern cars and trucks, tests their equipment they test it in Germany. Makes sense since they're a German Company. Diesel in Germany is different than diesel in the US. It's better.

It isn't that we don't know how to refine better diesel, we sure do. It's just that there's a group of people out there (the EPA) that don't want us to. Don't get me started on them.

There's an ongoing war over Bosch CP4 pumps and the fact that they like to grenade once in a whle causing immense damage to the engines they're in. Big damage. GM went to Denso for their HPFP because of being getting the snot sued out of them for not making pumps compatible with American Diesel Fuel.

Cummins used the CP3 until 2019 when they used the CP4 for two years. I understand they've gone back to the CP3 for '21 after an outcry from owner/buyers.

I have the CP3 in my Cummins so I'm not all excited about it. But if I had a CP4 on my truck or a tractor with a mystery HPFP, I'd make sure and use a Cetane additive/booster and a winter additive and make sure it's right for cold (real cold) weather if I were in such a climate. Don't over-do it.

I don't know what Kubota is using on this particular engine but I bet it's a HPFP and when it grenaded it may have sent nasty all through the fuel system.

It's too late to save AK but the rest of you, if you have a HPFP, pay attention.

I hang on some diesel truck forums and it's real thing, these fuel pumps. Most people never have a bit of problem with them but the ones that do..... It's bad news.

You can help head it off if you understand your engine. Maybe not 100% guaranteed but you can sure improve your chances.

And make sure to send a 'Thank You' note to the EPA. I bet they'd love to hear from you.

 

[Username Taken]

 

[ruffdog]

That lawsuit is from the summer of 2019 and I haven't found any resolution.

JUDGE REJECTS GENERAL MOTORS MOTION TO DISMISS FUEL PUMP LITIGATION | Hilliard Martinez Gonzales LLP | Personal Injury

The firm suing specializes in mass torts and is also suing Ford, Chrysler, and Bosch.

 

[5030]

Never knew any judge was 'honorable.....

 

[Username Taken]

Never knew any judge was 'honorable.....

Seems the higher up they go, the less so....

While I'm no fan of lawyers.......................................... I got nothing

But anyway, the people involved that are suing Ford, generic motors, Chrysler, et al aren't trying to place blame, they're just looking for some financial relief.

It's the EPA's fault for forcing unproven, poorly tested equipment on -- Everybody. They come up with stoopid ideas and they have the ability to force manufacturers and the public to accept them. If it don't work? Sucks to be you. Costs them nothing.

It's not the fault of gm or Ford that the CP4 pump can't take American Diesel, they tested the HPFP but on decent fuel not what the EPA forces on us; but you can't really sue a gooberment agency. Well, not unless you're part of the 'team' like when the Sierra CLub or Earth Firsters sue the EPA and have a settlement already worked out that is very much to the disadvantage of Americans and other living things, then go in front of a 'friendly' judge and have it codified.

I'm just trying to let people know, to advise them to look out for themselves. Just saying -- A lot of these newer fuel pumps aren't up to the job. And you need to be aware of that. If you exercise due care, you might be able to save some money.

This isn't about a philosophical POV, it's about reality and trying to live in it. It is what it is and I see no chance of it changing in our life times.

 

[MoKelly]

Never knew any judge was 'honorable.....

Worse yet, congress folks are also entitled to be called “honorable”.

MoKelly

 

[5030]

No honor among thrives in my view.

 

[Alan W.]

I remember when I worked at Hitachi they built a high pressure gas fuel pump. They had a quality testing lab to run the pumps nonstop for a number of hours. Then the pumps would be disassembled and cut in two to check for wear and malfunctions.
Multiple fuel formulations to match what was available in the countries that they would be sold was used.
When I disposed of the test fuel it would be almost black from continuously cycling through the pumps.
Fuel, whether it be diesel or gas is different from country to country. And even though the new diesels crank out impressive power and fuel efficiency they do it, in my opinion at the cost of reliability.

 

[goeduck]

I deal with customers with relatively recent post warranty issues in my business and as long as I see that the customer is clean (no fraud) I step up and take care of them. It is not even a blip on the radar on the month end numbers. But that is me.

 

[5030]

Why I put Stanadyne fuel additive in every tank. ULSD needs all the 'help' it can get, IMO.

 

[JethroB]

Why I put Stanadyne fuel additive in every tank. ULSD needs all the 'help' it can get, IMO.

I hope for the OP that Kubota Corp. will step up. Maybe testing the fuel is just one of the hoops and boxes needed to be ticked as a request is passed up the ladder for approvals. Lots of policies and procedures involved in large companies and CYA too.

 

[Smokeydog]

Why I put Stanadyne fuel additive in every tank. ULSD needs all the 'help' it can get, IMO.

I do too.

Turbo Diesel Register local club had a tour of City Diesel, local regional diesel repair shop. Showing and telling us problems and how the best way to prevent problems. Lubricates from loss of sulfur, raises cetane for better combustion and coalesces water for removal by filtration. In my truck it gets about 1 mile per gallon better pays for itself. Free with benefits hard to beat.

 

[MHarryE]

No matter how well designed and built, things are going to break. That's why commercial airliners have 2 engines capable of safely flying on one engine for different distances based party on reliability record. The problem here is dealer not being able to resolve the engine issue with the tractor on their shop floor. The OP is facing a >$10k repair bill while in the meantime, tractor is not available so OP cannot earn the money to pay the repair bill. Somewhere in my hard drives I have an internal JD CEO message to employees about the cost of quality - how much they were paying in warranty and goodwill in order to keep JD's reputation. Things are going fail - minimize that - but get the customer going ASAP. My history at Allis-Chalmers, Case-IH, and Cat, we have dropped machines from production to take the engine or FIP away to get a customer going. One difference here - we never did that for a machine 5 years old so that shouldn't be a qualifier but a dealer not getting manufacturer support to resolve this problem quickly is the real problem.