Kubota L6060 Engine failure

[PSDStu]

Reply to Cahaba Valley Farm, no it is not. In Reply to RickB, the request was submitted by the dealership over a week ago. I wrote a letter to Kubota Corporation nearly a month ago. So far there has been no progress.

So at this point they have replaced the Injector pump, ECU, and Injectors and it's still running? Do I have that right? What would be next now?

 

[AKForest]

This is partially in reply to PSD Stu, but also directed at RickB, what is the next step and how long does it take?

First let me correct something in PSD Stu's comment, the injector pump and ECU have been replaced. The dealership, with guidance from Kubota, feel that replacing the injectors is the next thing to try. This is based on nothing more than "what else is left to try". Apparently it is complicated to test the existing injectors. They must be sent out of state which will take a month and of course there is an expense. The dealership has injectors in stock but, they will neither test the old injectors or install new ones until Kubota or I authorize payment. I don't have that much ready cash to authorize further expenditures. Especially, since they don't know whether this will fix the problem. The amount including injectors, as I have said before, total around $10,000. I have already lost much of my logging season without use of my tractor. The lumber and firewood sales derived from the logs provide the bulk of my retirement income. I log in the winter and raise tree seedlings and re-forest in the summer.

To RickB, maybe you can't answer this question, but do you have any suggestions on how I should proceed? How long does it take Kubota to respond? Should I share my predicament to a larger audience on social media? Not having a tractor has been costly and frustrating for me, but it is not good for Kubota's reputation either. Thanks for all your help, RickB and all the rest of you.

 

[RickB]

It is difficult for me to comment because in spite of what seems like ample detail provided by your extensive commentary here I don't know who at Kubota has been contacted. You reference a letter you sent "to Kubota" without expending. There is no telling who at Kubota the dealer is corresponding with beyond the service group. Given the age of the tractor it is all but certain to be out of warranty. I will repeat that if that is in fact true the ONLY relief you will get will be from the dealer and/or from the FSM in the form of a goodwill warranty which must be approved by the FSM for that territory. If the FSM is not included in the review process you will likely get nothing from Kubota. Without knowing the exact details of the symptoms, the ECU project files at each step of the repair process and a full understanding of the troubleshooting and repair process to date I can't comment further.

 

[AKForest]

To RickB,

My only response at Kubota has been Valery at 888-458-2682 ex. 4959. I don't have a reference number for my appeal but I would think mentioning I am from Talkeetna, Alaska and my tractor is being serviced in Fairbanks, Alaska at ESI should ring a bell.

 

[RickB]

Do not misunderstand me. I have no intention of getting involved. For the third time I will tell you your dealer's FSM needs to be involved in this.

 

[MHarryE]

To RickB,

My only response at Kubota has been Valery at 888-458-2682 ex. 4959. I don't have a reference number for my appeal but I would think mentioning I am from Talkeetna, Alaska and my tractor is being serviced in Fairbanks, Alaska at ESI should ring a bell.

Like RickB says, it would come out of somebody at Kubota’s goodwill budget. And they operate like my company, each district or however Kubota describes it has a different person with a discretionary budget. There are likely others at Kubota with a goodwill budget like I had. Some customers who didn’t feel they got a fair deal at lower levels would get to me and I had my budget and a soft heart, but engine division covered engine warranty even if the engine was in my product line so I couldn’t authorize help in a situation like yours. But there is no way you should have to pay for parts that didn’t fix the problem. If it proves to be injectors, I couldn’t understand you getting stuck with the cost of the high pressure pump. Since you have a name, that’s further than I have made it at Kubota. I don’t have a warranty issue but I do have a repeat failure issue design related. Kubota tells me to go through my dealer. My dealer tells me Kubota listens with deaf ears. So I keep spares on hand ready for the next failure. Mine is only $100 part but the first failure cost 18 days downtime in middle of haying. You’re stuck with downtime in midst of logging. I wish we had the leverage with companies to demand $xxx per hour downtime or free replacement until repair is complete. They might develop a sense of responsibility and urgency.

 

[LD1]

This modern stuff is very expensive and difficult to troubleshoot.

Even knowing its out of warranty, I would still be an unhappy customer with a 6-year old tractor that probably cost $50k, and facing $10k+ in repairs and still no resolution.

I have a similar story about my wifes buick. Bought at a local dealer that touted "lifetime" powertrain warranty (through a 3rd party of course). 30k miles and 2 years old it had the coil pack fail. $200 ~45k miles and 3 years a wheel bearing out. Few weeks later battery goes out. None covered through GM or the 3rd party warranty.
About 55k miles and 3.5 years the t-case output seal is leaking. Not covered under 3rd party "lifetime drivetrain warranty", but GM did cover this one.

Then at ~60k miles and 4 years some strange things started happening. Randomly about once every 30 min the thing would just be gutless and start bucking and wouldnt get out of its own way. Took it to dealer and they reflashed ECU and said if that wasnt it then the turbo is going out. Well, ECU didnt fix it, but I didnt believe the $1500 turbo was the problem. Spent a day with a blue-driver (app based scan tool) and made all kinds of charts to decipher. Every time the issue occurred, The throttle body was NOT being commanded to be open even though throttle pedal position was at 100%. (no throttle cable:banghead. And the turbo wastegate was NOT being commanded to be closed and allow boost to build. I was convinced the issue was electrical/ecm related, and replacing a 100% mechanical component (the turbo) would not change the fact that the throttle body was not being told to open. Yet they still insisted the turbo was the problem. And wanted $1500.

I did get them to agree that if the $1500 did NOT fix it....that the $1500 would then go towards the actual problem and balance to be refunded due to their lack of diagnostic ability.

It never got that far and we decided on trading it in. Which lead into another dealer issue. We traded for a jeep compass, and after about a year started to have a audible "clunk" in the driveline under acceleration at about 30mph. But otherwise was flawless.

Took it back to dealer....said 99% of these drivetrain issues are solved with a reflash of the DTM (drivetrain control module), TCM and ECM. However the TCM and ECM are covered under warranty but the DTM was not and that would be $150. ($130 for diagnostic and $20 for the flash).

Guess what, didnt fix the problem.:banghead:I questioned the $150 last time and why I was paying for diagnostics on a warranty repair. And they said "We waive the diagnostic charge if we find a legit problem covered under warranty otherwise everyone would be bring in vehicles that are under warranty just for us to go through to give a customer piece of mind and we would never make money". Long story short: They ended up replacing the rear differential and the valve body in the transmission under warranty....and I made them credit my $150 back the first time for failing to diagnose the problem and charging me for something that didnt need done.

But that seems to be the SOP anymore at dealers. They cant figure out a problem so start throwing parts at it in hopes of getting lucky, all the while charging the customer along the way for unnecessary parts.

And the sad part is everything is a freaking computer anymore, or controlled by a computer so it is impossible for owners to make their own repairs. Heck, you cant even trouble shoot something as simple as a window not rolling down anymore because its all controlled by the BCM (computer).

As to the OP and his L6060. However this all works out....at the end of the day I would not pay for any part that wasnt faulty. If this ultimately comes down to a wiring issue, bad ground, etc I'd be expecting a hefty refund of all the parts the guessed at. Its not the customers job to pay for a technicians education

 

[Rdrcr]

^^^^
Reminds me of when I had my 2006 Mercedes Benz E320 CDI Diesel. The car threw a code. I checked it with my scan tool. O2 sensor. No problem. I replaced the O2 sensor and the CEL went away. 2 months later the CEL reappeared. I checked it again with my scan tool. O2 sensor? I took the car to the local Mercedes Benz Dealership who already did most of my maintenance work and had them take a look at the vehicle. They came back and told me it was a bad O2 sensor and suggested I replace it at around $900 parts & labor. I told the service advisor that I had replaced the O2 sensor myself only a couple months ago and asked him to double check with his technician that he is 'positive' this will fix the issue. He called me back and said yes, they are positive it is a bad O2 sensor and that it will resolve the issue. I went ahead an authorized the repair and had them replace the O2 sensor. 2 weeks later, the CEL reappeared. Bad O2. I called and they took the car back into service for diagnosis. The dealership had my E320 for 32 days while they tried to solve the issue. They were in contact with Mercedes Benz who sent out a specialist to the dealership to help with the shop foreman and the lead technician. Ultimately, they found out that the car had a bad ECU. They replaced the ECU and the vehicle was fixed. During the 32 days, I was driving a brand new E Class Mercedes at the dealers expense. They refunded me the total cost of the prior O2 sensor repair and I just had to pay the difference for the ECU, no labor. I'm forever thankful that both the Dealership and Mercedes Benz went the extra mile to solve an issue with one of their vehicles and help a customer. I appreciate that greatly!

I hope the OP has a similar experience and I hope for a permanent and affordable solution.

Mike

 

[Username Taken]

Could have bought a new engine for what he's dropped into it so far.

 

[RickB]

Could have bought a new engine for what he's dropped into it so far.

A new engine, but not necessarily THAT new engine.
And if it boils down to needing an ECU wiring harness your new engine would have been a waste of even more money.

 

[sd455dan]

A new engine, but not necessarily THAT new engine.
And if it boils down to needing an ECU wiring harness your new engine would have been a waste of even more money.

Yeah- it will be a Real kick in the head- if it is a bad/ intermittent signal from a sensor due to a harness problem.
I could see a bad or malfunctioning crankshaft position sensor among others causing a shut down and then no start condition like this.

But the ECU should keep a record of the loss of signal or signal out of bounds.

Diesels with their high compression Really don't like a mis timed injection event(s). So any faults the ECU sees will trigger a do not not fire the injectors.

Does the Kubota dealer have even basic fuel injection test equipment?

No mention of NOID lights. typical under 100 dollar test equipment for gas or diesel common rail fuel injection .

As a simple test The Noid lights would have told the dealer immediately whether the injectors are receiving firing signals during engine cranking. No flashing Noid, No Injection event, No Fire, No Start.

Also A very easy test to do at the point the dealer says you are at Now, (New pump and ECU) But no start...

Something sure sounds fishy about the troubleshooting to determine root cause so far.

Modern ECU controlled CR was worked on by "FIAT" of all companies sold to Bosch who really advanced it. ( Probably the best purchase Bosch Ever made) Common Rail diesel has been in broad use for almost 20 years.

You would think Kubota would have some well trained crack field agents or at least help line for their dealer techs for a dead tractor like this.

If the (OP) does end up getting charged for parts installed so far, DEMAND ALL of the OLD Parts.

 

[RickB]

Yeah- it will be a Real kick in the head- if it is a bad/ intermittent signal from a sensor due to a harness problem.
I could see a bad or malfunctioning crankshaft position sensor among others causing a shut down and then no start condition like this.

But the ECU should keep a record of the loss of signal or signal out of bounds.

Diesels with their high compression Really don't like a mis timed injection event(s). So any faults the ECU sees will trigger a do not not fire the injectors.

Does the Kubota dealer have even basic fuel injection test equipment?

No mention of NOID lights. typical under 100 dollar test equipment for gas or diesel common rail fuel injection .

As a simple test The Noid lights would have told the dealer immediately whether the injectors are receiving firing signals during engine cranking. No flashing Noid, No Injection event, No Fire, No Start.

Also A very easy test to do at the point the dealer says you are at Now, (New pump and ECU) But no start...

Something sure sounds fishy about the troubleshooting to determine root cause so far.

Modern ECU controlled CR was worked on by "FIAT" of all companies sold to Bosch who really advanced it. ( Probably the best purchase Bosch Ever made) Common Rail diesel has been in broad use for almost 20 years.

You would think Kubota would have some well trained crack field agents or at least help line for their dealer techs for a dead tractor like this.

If the (OP) does end up getting charged for parts installed so far, DEMAND ALL of the OLD Parts.

Basic fuel injector test equipment is inadequate for electronic injectors.
Electronic fuel injectors are not tested at the Kubota dealership level for warranty purposes, therefore by extension for any reason.
Kubota requires its dealers to have a dedicated laptop(s) loaded with their proprietary diagnostic software. ECU data is regularly transmitted to Kubota's service support group. The level of available diagnostic and troubleshooting support available to dealers exceeds your commentary by a fairly wide margin.

 

[MHarryE]

Here is a CRI injector I have lying around. Not Kubota. Important thing is the serial number at the top. There is a trim file with the injector. That is all that is serviceable. Replace the injector, load the trim file into the engine ECU, and that’s it. For this injector the engine will periodically go into its own diagnostic mode and fine tune the engine ECM based on what the sensors are feeding back. The trim file at the start is based on that injector at the time it was built. The engine fine tunes it in operation.

It’s not unlike other consumer products. I lost a hearing aid, covered by insurance. I have the replacement but the trim file is at my audiologist 240 miles away. She cannot send me the file to upload using Bluetooth. I need to drive to her office and have her upload by Bluetooth. She needs her piece of the action. Fortunately some things can be done by the user. When I quit using my computer tonight it informed me to make sure it was plugged in to a power supply. Tonight it is updating the bios, then updating to the latest Windows version. Tomorrow I find out if it went well but at least no dealer involved.

 

[AKForest]

I begin this thread knowing very little about the finer points of electronic interaction with this engine. I have learned a great deal from all of you.

The following input comes directly from the dealership mechanic. They hooked my tractor up to their computer with all the proprietary software that Kubota provided them, as described by RickB. It told them nothing. They replaced the injector pump solely based on the fact that there was no pressure in the rail. The new injector pump produced pressure but the tractor would not start. Again the diagnostic software told then nothing. The mechanic put a multimeter on the wires running to the injectors and got inadequate voltage to open the injectors. Based on this, the ECU was ordered. On February 9 the ECU was replaced, but the tractor still did not start. Suspicion then fell on the injectors. As RickB pointed out, the injectors cannot be tested at the dealership. they must be shipped out to a special facility approved by Kubota. At this point I refused to authorize further expenditures until I heard from Kubota about their responsibility. I have written two letters to Kubota. I have spoken to a Kubota representative as late as Friday of last week. She promised some type of response by Tuesday. AS of today the tractor has been down for nearly two and a half months.

 

[arto98607]

Sorry to hear about your continuing tractor trouble

It sounds like one needs to own a spare tractor if he is relying on Kubota!

 

[BeezFun]

AS of today the tractor has been down for nearly two and a half months.

I can't remember if you said whether this it the dealer where you bought your tractor, but have they offered to give you a loaner to use? The place I bought mine will give a loaner if they have to keep a machine more than a week or so. Especially since you're making a living with your tractor.

 

[AKForest]

I can't remember if you said whether this it the dealer where you bought your tractor, but have they offered to give you a loaner to use? The place I bought mine will give a loaner if they have to keep a machine more than a week or so. Especially since you're making a living with your tractor.

Yes it is the dealer where I purchased the tractor, and no they did not offer a loner. Anyway, they are 260 miles away over a sketchy, ice covered road, in winter.

 

[BeezFun]

Yes it is the dealer where I purchased the tractor, and no they did not offer a loner. Anyway, they are 260 miles away over a sketchy, ice covered road, in winter.

I've been on that road, but it was in July. Started in Anchorage and drove up to ANWR, parked on the side of the road and hiked for 2 weeks. Also hiked Denali and Johnson's pass.
Sorry you are having so much trouble. This is the biggest tractor fiasco I think I've ever read about.

 

[AKForest]

In the continuing saga that I initiated on my birthday, February 17, I finally got an update. As a result, I drafted the following letter to Kubota. Several people have asked me to keep them posted concerning progress on my tractor repair. here it is.


It has been nearly three months since I lost use of my Kubota L6060 tractor. It has been at the Kubota dealership for repairs since December 31. Today, I was told that all four of the injectors had been tested, found faulty, and needed to be replaced. I was told that if I wanted the tractor back in running order any time soon I needed to pay for all costs for parts and labor, for a total of $10,027.09. This was not a guarantee that the tractor will run, but it is a step in the process; as were the injector pump and the ECU. My alternative is to wait and see whether Kubota will pay for any or all of these expenses. The dealership said that any decision by Kubota could take some time because someone at Kubota, specifically Steve Americano, wanted to test fuel from the tank of the tractor.



The testing of fuel is ludicrous. The fuel was delivered to my new, 300 gallon tank, by Crowley Fuel Co., one of the largest fuel companies in Alaska. My tank has a CIMTEK filter which removes particles down to 10 microns and is designed to prevent the passage of any water. Furthermore, if water did enter the fuel tank through condensation, the tractor was designed by Kubota to remove water by employing a water separator. A second canister filter provides additional protection. When I discussed this with Crowley, they suggested I ask Kubota how contaminants in the fuel could cause the ECU to fail. The actions by Steve Americano appear to me to be either a delay tactic or an attempt to blame someone or something for the chain reaction failure of this Kubota engine. As I have stated in previous correspondence, the only logical reason for such a catastrophic failure would appear to be faulty parts, poor assembly or bad engineering. I have been in contact with numerous tractor owners, operators, and mechanics on the internet. There is a vast network of experience out there. Many of these people I corresponded with have seen individual tractor parts fail. It is a consequence of owning a piece of equipment. However, none have experienced such a chain reaction failure as I did. If there was any consensus it was that the ECU was the culprit or possibly wiring..



As of today, I have agreed to pay the ESI Kubota Dealership $10,027.09 to get my tractor put back together and running properly so that I can resume work. This does not mean that I will not continue to pursue every means at my disposal to require Kubota to extend the warranty to cover my costs in this matter.



I have performed my responsibilities as defined in the owners manual to maintain my tractor in the best manner possible. In spite of this, the engine has failed catastrophically. I have lost much of my logging season which is my primary source of income. At this point, I feel that Kubota has failed me. In the bigger picture, Kubota may have failed in producing a world class product in the L6060. In addition, at least so far, Kubota has not supported the repair a piece of their equipment when it failed to live up to what should be their standard.

 

[MoKelly]

In the continuing saga that I initiated on my birthday, February 17, I finally got an update. As a result, I drafted the following letter to Kubota. Several people have asked me to keep them posted concerning progress on my tractor repair. here it is.


It has been nearly three months since I lost use of my Kubota L6060 tractor. It has been at the Kubota dealership for repairs since December 31. Today, I was told that all four of the injectors had been tested, found faulty, and needed to be replaced. I was told that if I wanted the tractor back in running order any time soon I needed to pay for all costs for parts and labor, for a total of $10,027.09. This was not a guarantee that the tractor will run, but it is a step in the process; as were the injector pump and the ECU. My alternative is to wait and see whether Kubota will pay for any or all of these expenses. The dealership said that any decision by Kubota could take some time because someone at Kubota, specifically Steve Americano, wanted to test fuel from the tank of the tractor.



The testing of fuel is ludicrous. The fuel was delivered to my new, 300 gallon tank, by Crowley Fuel Co., one of the largest fuel companies in Alaska. My tank has a CIMTEK filter which removes particles down to 10 microns and is designed to prevent the passage of any water. Furthermore, if water did enter the fuel tank through condensation, the tractor was designed by Kubota to remove water by employing a water separator. A second canister filter provides additional protection. When I discussed this with Crowley, they suggested I ask Kubota how contaminants in the fuel could cause the ECU to fail. The actions by Steve Americano appear to me to be either a delay tactic or an attempt to blame someone or something for the chain reaction failure of this Kubota engine. As I have stated in previous correspondence, the only logical reason for such a catastrophic failure would appear to be faulty parts, poor assembly or bad engineering. I have been in contact with numerous tractor owners, operators, and mechanics on the internet. There is a vast network of experience out there. Many of these people I corresponded with have seen individual tractor parts fail. It is a consequence of owning a piece of equipment. However, none have experienced such a chain reaction failure as I did. If there was any consensus it was that the ECU was the culprit or possibly wiring..



As of today, I have agreed to pay the ESI Kubota Dealership $10,027.09 to get my tractor put back together and running properly so that I can resume work. This does not mean that I will not continue to pursue every means at my disposal to require Kubota to extend the warranty to cover my costs in this matter.



I have performed my responsibilities as defined in the owners manual to maintain my tractor in the best manner possible. In spite of this, the engine has failed catastrophically. I have lost much of my logging season which is my primary source of income. At this point, I feel that Kubota has failed me. In the bigger picture, Kubota may have failed in producing a world class product in the L6060. In addition, at least so far, Kubota has not supported the repair a piece of their equipment when it failed to live up to what should be their standard.

Good letter - clear, calm but firm. You say you will “continue to pursue every means at my disposal” to get them to cover your costs on the tractor. Perhaps you can hint that they should also cover your lost income due to non-use of the machine.

In any case, I’m sorry for all the stuff you’ve had to go thru and wish you nothing but good luck going forward.

MoKelly