Korean tractor dilemma

[paulsharvey]

Screen shots meant to be attached above

 

[kozal01]

So im not just some dumb wood chuck trying to generalize korean manufacturing.

I have been in the fork lift business for the last 18yr of my life. From welding frames and uprights, doing full tear downs and repairs, fixturing and designing ect. That said i left my old company and moved half way across the country. Found another forklift company to work for as that has been my profession for most my life.

New company was bought out by a korean company some years ago. Moved most manufacturing over seas to korea and vietnam. This move is litterly destroying the company. The korean and vietnam built trucks have a 1 in 5 warranty rate. We had to add a department here at the headquarters state side just for repairing these trucks when they come in, before they go to the dealers. We currently have about 500 in a warehouse waiting for repair.

The parts thing is terrible aswell, we have to tear down trucks almost weekly to get customers parts, as korea dosnt have any or it takes months to get parts. So not only do we have a warehouse full of trucks waiting for repair. We also have a bunch of trucks half tore apart waiting on parts to be put back together. We had to wait 2 years for a drive axle just for one forklift.

So that being said, dealers are dropping our product due to parts support and quality issues. Alot of trucks failing under 500hours and alot of leaks popping up within the first 50hours.

But the owner does not seem to care, he would rather keep pumping junk out from overseas as it is cheaper to make. Soon they will be a grey market lift.

I thought that this was unique to this company on how they do business and operate. But now that i have had 2 korean built tractors. I have found that its the same crap but different companys. Yeah you might get a good one and it wont need much work, but there is a higher chance of getting a dud than with other companys.

They really dont seem to care about there customers and once the sale is done your on your own. Yall can try and defend what you want , but i do have first hand experiance on how korean companies operate. I was just hoping the risk was worth the reward

Again, you're generalizing based on a very small sampling size and anecdotal evidence. I am an applications engineer in the CNC cutting tool industry, have been in manufacturing for almost 30 years and what you said could be applied to almost any region in almost any industry, Japanese and US built stuff as well. Sucks you had some issues but I wouldn't classify everything Korean as "junk", that's just absurd. Deadong, the parent company of their US market machines called Kioti have been selling tractors here since the mid 80's, they are not some new flash in the pan brand and they surely know how to build a solid tractor. They also make components for several other MFG's including Mahindra, Cub Cadet and others. They formally made components for Kubota as well. Good luck, sounds like you will need it.

 

[paulsharvey]

I should add, our OP should be upset about the repair time, lack of an estimated completion date, and the fact that it needs the repair. I also have said, and will say again, there IS a compromise in buying a non-power 4 machine. It's really not in quality, or even longevity, and you are winning on price; But you are comprising on speedy parts supply. That's just facts.

Volvo makes a fine track hoe, or wheeled loader, and I don't think a reasonable person will deny that; However, they Will take longer to get you parts than Cat. If heavy equipment is your day in, day out, money maker; and down time can make you bankrupt; It's #1 Cat, #2 John Deere; #3 Komustu, #4 probably Case. Hyundai, Kobelco, Samsung, Volvo, Linkbelt, JCB whatever, all quality machines, Will have less parts readily on the shelf in the US.

All of this is with the assumption that you are in the main 48 states of the US. If you are in Kenya, Brazil, Belarus, or New Zealand, these brands many have better parts support than a John Deere/Cat. JCB is popular in the UK. Massey tractors are big in India/Pakistan/English speaking Africa. If I was in Russian Fed, a Belarus machine for a tractor, a Minsk motorcycle, a Lada car, all have better parts support than Ford/Chevy.

 

[paulsharvey]

As proof of the ability of less developed countries to often do a better build than a developed country on the same item;
If I offered you a US made AKM, a Russian, a Chinese, an Egyptian, and a Yugo; I'm guessing anyone in their right mind would pick the Amercian one dead last. I would go Russian Fed, Yugoslavia (Serbian), Chinese, Egyptian, and last, US. Now, I do understand voting with your wallet, and non logically reasons, and if offered a Bosnian (Bosnian half, not Republika Srpska half) I would take amercian before it, for strictly non logical reasons.

A compact tractor, although it has some tech involved, isn't a space ship. If you Really are worried; I would look for the tail end of a long run on the exact same model. So, if longevity is the #1 priority, a tractor in the 8th and final year of production would win over a machine in 1st or 2nd year of production (and possibly last... never know). People Love their old Ford 8Ns, but it's cause there is what, 20 years of production, and over a million machines sold, so parts will be readily available for 50 more years. They did Not go 8000 hours without breaking down; the old guys just replaced the broken parts and kept working.

Point, Kioti CK series started in 2015, and ran for 9 years. That's a long run.

JD 3038E ran for like 12+ years

An LS MT357 is in its 5th year

The Kioti NS6010 ran 2022-2024 and ended; so maybe I wouldn't buy an NS6010

 

[paulsharvey]

So, I did just double back to the very top; and it is possible that "oil pan leaks" and HST pump leaks; maybe if small; we just have too high of an expectation for agricultural equipment. They leak. At 5 hours, there will be a drop of oil if you look for it hard enough. I'm Not saying thats it; but Kubotas leak fluids, John Deeres leak fluids.

If it was a small drip, say a quart every 50 hours, I could see the dealer kinda "back burnering" you and your issue.

 

[Dftodd]

I remember my Dad, WW2 vet, wouldn't buy anything made by Japanese. I can sympathize especially when you include the nanjing massacres

My grandfather had a more pragmatic approach. He drove Chrysler K cars for years, and an old Chevy plow truck for beating around in. His TV was Japanese, but I really don't think it bothered him much, or if he even realized.

But then he was deployed a month after D-Day to Germany to help with cleanup and support, and didn't have the negative experiences of fighting in the war.

He would regal you in stories of his military experiences anytime and always kept you entertained.

He encountered a photographer while over there who was taking photos of the war.

He looked him up several years later and the photographer sent him copies of the photos he took overseas.

Once my dad passes and we get access to gramps belongings, and all the photos, I plan on donating the photos to a museum.

My other grandfather fought in Korean war, but never talked about, at all. You wouldn't know he was in except for his framed service photo on the wall.

 

[Dftodd]

Sucks on the parts. Everyone’s a parts pusher now. What happened to real mechanics. I’ve rebuilt the “ un serviceable “ many of times. Hydrostatic pumps are fairly simple actually. I did a little machine work for my friends jd skid pump. Supposed to be a total pump replacement according to jd. We pulled the numbers from the pump , got the pump mfg. Got all the parts from them for around $1200 vs the $5800 complete pump. Couple hours later the other machinist friend had it back together.

Now I have heard of people having better luck getting a hold of ls corporate side over here about warranty /time issues.

Dealers want to sell you the parts. On my equipment at work, some of the hydraulic motors are pretty standard, and there is a dealer in Little Rock that handles that brand.

So if a seal goes out, we just order a new seal for $20 versus $1500 to replace it.

 

[Dftodd]

Well, if your local korean brand dealer is good then it doesn't matter what the other ones are like? I found the big NH and JD dealers didn't inspire me with confidence that they cared about any tractor under $75k, and they have salesmen, parts guy, the useless nephew on the payroll, $10,000,000+ inventory to pay for, all useless overhead that the customer pays for....
The big MF dealer was actually pretty good, but they were stuck on price(maybe due to overhead?), and they don't make their CUT's, so who knows about the part availability 30 years from now, for some on their CUT models that end up with a short run of model years.
My 2 closest Kioti dealers are 2-3 man businesses with the owners also being very experienced mechanics who went to Wendell NC to see their operation before they decided to carry Kioti, as they didn't want to deal with the headaches of selling and servicing junk, and they found Kioti wasn't selling junk. The dealership owner I bought my tractor from goes every couple years to Wendell for training with his full time mechanic on service and repair of the new models, and their shop is always clean and organized. They even have a couple spare tractors to loan out if customer breaks down during a critical time. Anyways, I got lucky that what I thought was the best tractor for me, was also sold by the best dealer for me, so it was an easy purchase decision.

My Massey 1825E was manufacturered by Agco which is the parent company of Massey.

I'm not sure about the smaller sub compacts.

 

[caleb90]

As proof of the ability of less developed countries to often do a better build than a developed country on the same item;
If I offered you a US made AKM, a Russian, a Chinese, an Egyptian, and a Yugo; I'm guessing anyone in their right mind would pick the Amercian one dead last. I would go Russian Fed, Yugoslavia (Serbian), Chinese, Egyptian, and last, US. Now, I do understand voting with your wallet, and non logically reasons, and if offered a Bosnian (Bosnian half, not Republika Srpska half) I would take amercian before it, for strictly non logical reasons.

A compact tractor, although it has some tech involved, isn't a space ship. If you Really are worried; I would look for the tail end of a long run on the exact same model. So, if longevity is the #1 priority, a tractor in the 8th and final year of production would win over a machine in 1st or 2nd year of production (and possibly last... never know). People Love their old Ford 8Ns, but it's cause there is what, 20 years of production, and over a million machines sold, so parts will be readily available for 50 more years. They did Not go 8000 hours without breaking down; the old guys just replaced the broken parts and kept working.

Point, Kioti CK series started in 2015, and ran for 9 years. That's a long run.

JD 3038E ran for like 12+ years

An LS MT357 is in its 5th year

The Kioti NS6010 ran 2022-2024 and ended; so maybe I wouldn't buy an NS6010

An akm would be my last choice to start with. But that being said. People choose the others over the american made ones is due to the others hold their value more. Not that they run better than american made akm's

 

[Dftodd]

My wife's 2019 Kia Sorento V6 has been excellent, as has my Kioti. Your generalizations aren't worth the time you're taking to type them.

We Have the Hyundai SanteFe which is pretty much the same as the sorrento.

My daughter had the Kia telluride.

Wife's happy, daughters happy, Me and the son in law are happy

 

[caleb90]

So, I did just double back to the very top; and it is possible that "oil pan leaks" and HST pump leaks; maybe if small; we just have too high of an expectation for agricultural equipment. They leak. At 5 hours, there will be a drop of oil if you look for it hard enough. I'm Not saying thats it; but Kubotas leak fluids, John Deeres leak fluids.

If it was a small drip, say a quart every 50 hours, I could see the dealer kinda "back burnering" you and your issue.

The oil pan i was living with, decided i would fix it down the road. The hst pump leaking was a different story. Thats what drove me to take it in. Yes equipment leaks but at 50hrs? Come on now. 500hr maybe.

 

[paulsharvey]

The oil pan i was living with, decided i would fix it down the road. The hst pump leaking was a different story. Thats what drove me to take it in. Yes equipment leaks but at 50hrs? Come on now. 500hr maybe.

Ok, I get that it "shouldn't"; but believe it or not, I'm atleast trying to help somewhat. Poll Kubota, John Deere, Yanmar, and Massey guys with sub 100 hours and ask how many don't have a couple Minor drips. It might not even be drips, but dust kinda sticks to the front wheel seal area, or you get a bit of rainbow oil slick when washing.

I actually would hate to hear of a 3rd lemon, and it's a Yanmar/Kubota, and your disappointed again.

 

[tacticalturnip]

Is your Santa Fe the 4 or 6 cylinder? In our generation the 4 cylinder did have some known issues so I opted for the very well rated 6. We've been extremely happy with it, and when it does reach the end of it's life- which will no doubt be eventually rust- we really like the Telluride.

 

[Dftodd]

I don’t think there’s a bad tractor brand made today. All of them have their good and a few bad models or features. I chose Kubota because they have a local dealer that provides service and stocks parts. And I don’t like the local Deere or Mahindra dealer’s operations. There are no other colors within hundreds of miles.

We have pretty much all of them in our area. KIOTI, Mahindra, Deere, Kubota, and Bad Boy, Yanmar and New Holland were all pretty high and comparable in price.

Mahindra, Bad Boy, and New Holland are out of the way for me.

I don't get along with the service managers at the local Deere and Kubota dealers.

Both are owned by conglomerates, so service suffered as well as prices going way up.

The local Massey Furgeson dealer is still a mom and pop shop with two stores. They also sell LS and Bob Cat equipment including tractors.

Their prices were quite a bit lower then the others listed above. So that helped me make the decision to go with the Massey 1825E that we purchased. I've had experience with the Iseki diesel in it through work. So that helped seal the deal.

Tym went out of buisiness locally. By locally, the closest dealer was 60 miles south west of us.

I did see a small TYM dealer about 1.5 hours north. But their lot consisted of 6 tractors and a really tiny building, so it doesn't instill much confidence.

Locally for Large tractors, people are going with Massey and New Holland.

Neighbor behind us has a 25hp JD scut they seem to be happy with.

I've seen one LS tractor locally.

 

[Mud2Money]

Dealers want to sell you the parts. On my equipment at work, some of the hydraulic motors are pretty standard, and there is a dealer in Little Rock that handles that brand.

So if a seal goes out, we just order a new seal for $20 versus $1500 to replace it.

Yep I came from wrenching on 7 figure Cnc machines. We rebuilt it all , spindles, hydraulic pumps , coolant pumps, gear boxes. Nothing is non serviceable to the right mind.

 

[Dftodd]

And the 2 LS dealers near me keep less than 10 tractors on the lot.

Our Local LS dealer had a bunch in crates, but only a few pit together and for show in the yard. But because of the interest rates, they only have sold a few to cash customers.

They sell Massey Furgeson as well, so they get 0% for the Massey versus 8% for the LS models.

 

[Dftodd]

Yep I came from wrenching on 7 figure Cnc machines. We rebuilt it all , spindles, hydraulic pumps , coolant pumps, gear boxes. Nothing is non serviceable to the right mind.

I had a similar discussion with the service manager at a repair shop I deal with. They mainly work on semis, but are also the local Deutz parts supplier and repair shop.

He's got an old guy that is their small engine repairman that is a fixer instead of a swapper.

What kicked that conversation off was a discussion about Deutz starters. They come with a deutz starter solenoid bolted to the mounting face.

Deutz will not sell that solenoid. They require to purchase a new starter if the solenoid goes bad.

I've had to go this route on a couple of units because they are still under warranty. I had the solenoid go out on deutz engine last week that was out of warranty.

I ripped that solenoid off, bolted a $20 generic three pin solenoid to the frame and ran with it

 

[IndyIan]

And the 2 LS dealers near me keep less than 10 tractors on the lot.

They have only have like 4-5 different tractor lines, why have 2-3-4 million in inventory sitting there? Someone has to pay for it and it will be the customer, and the guy that owns the little place is probably there making sure things are going well, maybe even turning some wrenches...
For close to equal pricing I'd rather deal with a place like this

Than a place like this....

Do they really care your $35k 40hp tractor isn't working? Maybe, but they have guys paying more than that a month just leasing their equipment...

 

[polarred21]

Actually I'm quite impressed with that RCO dealer pic, unfortunately looks like they are closed. One nearest me just started selling boats!

I do get your point though. But as has been said, for some dealers selling tractors are just a side venture of the main business and can be turned off at any time.

 

[Mud2Money]

Dealers are everything. I got lucky another newer dealer came along. The first ls dealer is about 2 hours north. They flat out sucked. Couldn’t even get them on the phone for filters etc.

Newer place about 40 minutes away is a small equipment shop with good brand name things and diverse. They are a ls dealer and one of the better. I suspect cause the variety and amount of customers. Plus tractors are now a big dollar sale. They keep parts on hand , answers the phone fast ,good prices , usually some cash implement deals, and so far good mechanic works. Turn around times not bad. They prioritizes by who’s first in line for service.

So long as they exist my LS will.