Buying Advice Kioti NX or RX and horsepower needed

[trctorfan17]

Hi all,

I am looking to buy a new tractor but don稚 know what best fits my needs.

First of all, I never drove a tractor before.

I have 5 level acres, and I just cleared about 120 big trees and ground stumps. Very few trees left.

Here is my list of tasks:

- Drainage work (roughly 150 yards?,000 feet long four feet deep)
- aerating the compacted soil (from tree removal)
- grading (will be getting roughly 200 yards of subsoil delivered)
- digging fence posts for roughly 200 posts (rear non-hydraulic post hole digger should be fine I guess)

My goal is to finish these tasks in the shortest possible time and easiest way. So, I am willing to buy more powerful machines if they can truly make a difference in finishing the tasks.

I am currently considering Kioti NX but wiling to go for RX7320 if it can make a difference.

Renting is not an option for me because I need to do all this on weekends on my own. It would be cheaper to buy and then sell in few years.

So, giving all the above, what do you think is the best choice for me:

NX4510H
NX5010H
NX5510H
NX6010H
RX6620
RX7320

Thank you very much.

 

[trctorfan17]

...typo

Drainage work (roughly 150 yards: 1,000 feet long four feet deep)

 

[IslandTractor]

Hi all,

I am looking to buy a new tractor but don稚 know what best fits my needs.

First of all, I never drove a tractor before.

I have 5 level acres, and I just cleared about 120 big trees and ground stumps. Very few trees left.

Here is my list of tasks:

- Drainage work (roughly 150 yards?,000 feet long four feet deep)
- aerating the compacted soil (from tree removal)
- grading (will be getting roughly 200 yards of subsoil delivered)
- digging fence posts for roughly 200 posts (rear non-hydraulic post hole digger should be fine I guess)

My goal is to finish these tasks in the shortest possible time and easiest way. So, I am willing to buy more powerful machines if they can truly make a difference in finishing the tasks.

I am currently considering Kioti NX but wiling to go for RX7320 if it can make a difference.

Renting is not an option for me because I need to do all this on weekends on my own. It would be cheaper to buy and then sell in few years.

So, giving all the above, what do you think is the best choice for me:

NX4510H
NX5010H
NX5510H
NX6010H
RX6620
RX7320

Thank you very much.

The NX4510H would be more than adequate. I understand you want to do the work quickly and that money seems not a concern but your lack of tractor operating experience is the limiting factor, not horsepower or tractor size. You could do that work with a CK too. For trenching you will want a backhoe. A boxblade and post hole digger are necessary too in addition to FEL. There is nothing on your task list that requires more than 35-40 hp.

If you really want to finish the job quickly, just hire it out.

 

[trctorfan17]

The NX4510H would be more than adequate. I understand you want to do the work quickly and that money seems not a concern but your lack of tractor operating experience is the limiting factor, not horsepower or tractor size. You could do that work with a CK too. For trenching you will want a backhoe. A boxblade and post hole digger are necessary too in addition to FEL. There is nothing on your task list that requires more than 35-40 hp.

If you really want to finish the job quickly, just hire it out.

my only concern with DK and CK is the loader's capacity and the hydraulic pump rate...when i compare them with NX and RX.

Also, if I want to sell the machine in 3 years with may be 200 hours on it, I think buyers of used equipment may be more interested in RX than CK.

What do you think?

 

[Coyote machine]

my only concern with DK and CK is the loader's capacity and the hydraulic pump rate...when i compare them with NX and RX.

Also, if I want to sell the machine in 3 years with may be 200 hours on it, I think buyers of used equipment may be more interested in RX than CK.

What do you think?

Yes and no. Depends on what someone is wanting for their task list/needs. If it were me, I'd decide based on what would best accomplish the job at hand and worry less about the resale in a few years. Tractors unlike cars do retain a lot of their value, especially with low hours and a lot of toys, (implements) to go with the sale, as a package.

As IT said, you don't need a monster machine, just one that will provide enough power/capacity to get the job done. Kioti's are very capable tractors and the one's IT mentioned would do your task list without sweat. My Dk has never met a load it couldn't lift, with a capacity near 3,000 pounds you'd be hard pressed to want to have more lifing capability. I've lifted huge boulders and entire tree trunks upwards of 40' long with my log grapple. The only limit was maneuvering the tree's length and turning space for pickup and lowering on my landing.
Pump capacity, I'm not really qualified to address, but I'm sure IT or someone else can speak to it's need for your tasks.

Your 4 foot deep ditching is probably better done by a mini-ex rather than any tractor you listed, due to the depth and length, BUT you could of course do it with a tractor; again, your learning curve would be steep and by the time you were slightly proficient the ditch would have been done by a pro with the right tool for the job. Again your choice, but better to know your best use/options in advance of buying expensive equipment like a hoe and then finding out how long it takes to learn to use it efficiently, especially if you plan to sell it off in several years.

So we can better access your best use of your money to buy and use toys, what exactly are you wanting to do? you've listed tasks but what's the big picture? Posts holes for a fence, for horses, cattle, refugees?:confused3:
Ditch for mostly flat land?
What are you building?

It's not a criticism, but you're never having driven a tractor, and your desire to get things done quickly on weekends is admirable, but maybe somewhat unrealistic, which is why if we know more of what your plans are we can help steer you to spend your money where you will get the most bang/$.

Then when it's all over I can swoop in and buy your equipment for a song!?:laughing: just kidding!:thumbsup:

 

[trctorfan17]

Thank you Coyote...

the post hole digger used to install a privacy 6 ft vinyl fence.

the backhoe needed to dig up to 4 ft deep to run drainage pipe in a section of the property. the digging will not always be 4 ft deep, it will start with may be a foot deep and pitch/gravity...

I think mini-ex will be heavier and cause more compaction...which would mean needing to aerate that section too. Also, I cannot use industrial equipment on Sundays, but can use my NX or RX...that is half the weekends! This phases out rental and outsourcing.

backhoe will also be used to adjust non-mortared stonewall.

backhoe can be used to remove some of the small stumps and help in the aeration (with box blade).

For FEL, it is not just the weight...when moving 200 yards of dirt. RX7320 takes 0.8 yards whereas DK40 takes 0.4 yards. Dirt is average 2,500 lb per yard.

I am just repairing part of the drainage system, building a fence, and fixing the compacted soil (that resulted from heavy equipment removing trees), then grading.

It is not really a huge list of tasks....

So, if I can finish the drainage digging in one day, move the 200 yards of subsoil in one day, then the whole list can be finished in a month (4 weekends)? may be...

may be you can tell me, how long (on average) would it take to dig a linear foot (and one foot deep) using Kioti backhoe? is it 50 linear ft per hour?

 

[IslandTractor]

Thank you Coyote...

the post hole digger used to install a privacy 6 ft vinyl fence.

the backhoe needed to dig up to 4 ft deep to run drainage pipe in a section of the property. the digging will not always be 4 ft deep, it will start with may be a foot deep and pitch/gravity...

I think mini-ex will be heavier and cause more compaction...which would mean needing to aerate that section too. Also, I cannot use industrial equipment on Sundays, but can use my NX or RX...that is half the weekends! This phases out rental and outsourcing.

backhoe will also be used to adjust non-mortared stonewall.

backhoe can be used to remove some of the small stumps and help in the aeration (with box blade).

For FEL, it is not just the weight...when moving 200 yards of dirt. RX7320 takes 0.8 yards whereas DK40 takes 0.4 yards. Dirt is average 2,500 lb per yard.

I am just repairing part of the drainage system, building a fence, and fixing the compacted soil (that resulted from heavy equipment removing trees), then grading.

It is not really a huge list of tasks....

So, if I can finish the drainage digging in one day, move the 200 yards of subsoil in one day, then the whole list can be finished in a month (4 weekends)? may be...

may be you can tell me, how long (on average) would it take to dig a linear foot (and one foot deep) using Kioti backhoe? is it 50 linear ft per hour?

Regarding trench digging, I just finished digging a 200 ft long two foot deep drainage trench using my DK40 with 9 ft BH. Took about six hours. I was slowed by needing to reposition frequently due to trees and needing to revise portions of the ditch. To answer your question regarding time to dig a linear foot, I'd say that is about one bucketful of dirt per foot. I can probably dig and dump one bucket of soil every 15 seconds or so unless dealing with big roots etc. So maybe 4 linear feet per minute of actual digging. If your trench is in soft soil or sand then you should be able to dig about 150-200 cubic feet of trench in an hour once you don't need to think about which control lever to push or pull. I'd say it would take an hour or two for muscle memory to be established. You might almost be done digging by the time you were getting efficient.

How far are you moving the 200 yards of dirt? You'll want to have trucks dumping in more than one place to minimize your work. I'd never buy a bigger tractor just for a bigger bucket. With hst making a quick load run is simple so long as you are having soil dumped close to where it is needed.

You mentioned soil compaction several times. Not really such an issue in my experience. Never recall seeing a discussion about needing to aerate soil after the type of work you are describing.

FYI, I have done the type of work you are describing with a 20hp CK20 with 6 ft BH. The biggest current Kioti I would consider is the NX4510 with 9 ft BH and I wouldn't blink at taking on that task with a CK3510 based TLB.

 

[trctorfan17]

Thank you very much IT.

So based on your 4 lin ft/ minute, for 2 feet deep, and with my estimate of up to 4 feet deep, it will take me more time to dig. But it is impressive that it takes only 4-6 hours for 200 ft. I am assuming the your machine has the KB2485? same as the one used by DX.

So you don't think that the DX (with its higher hydraulic pump rate than DK) can move the backhoe and digging faster?

For the 200 yards of dirt, I can have truck dump in different areas...that is a good idea.

I guess you are basically saying that the difference in performance between DK and DX for landscaping tasks will not be noticeable? Can you give me an example of a task where it pays off to have DX over DK?

The compaction of soil resulted from the heavy equipment that came and removed 120 larges trees. Everyone told me that I have to aerate it first before seeding.

Thank you

 

[Gary Fowler]

To aerate the soil could just mean to run a disk harrow over it to have some loose dirt so the seeds can be covered. I wouldn't think that you would need much more than that.
As for digging a trench, the deeper it is and the harder the soil, the slower it is going to be. In anything other than the softest soil @4 feet of depth, you will be lucky to dig one foot per minute. With a small bucket or around 1 cubic foot on most CUT backhoes, it will take 3-4 dipper to get one foot of soil removed from a 4 foot hole. I would estimate it to take 2 minutes per foot minimum for an inexperience operator.

 

[trctorfan17]

To aerate the soil could just mean to run a disk harrow over it to have some loose dirt so the seeds can be covered. I wouldn't think that you would need much more than that.
As for digging a trench, the deeper it is and the harder the soil, the slower it is going to be. In anything other than the softest soil @4 feet of depth, you will be lucky to dig one foot per minute. With a small bucket or around 1 cubic foot on most CUT backhoes, it will take 3-4 dipper to get one foot of soil removed from a 4 foot hole. I would estimate it to take 2 minutes per foot minimum for an inexperience operator.

Thank you Gary...

You are right, they said use aerator or cultivator. I was planning to do that kind of aeration using the scarifiers in the box blade and may be the backhoe too in some tough areas. I will just seed grass there.

I am getting 18" bucket for the backhoe, so it takes up to 2 cubic ft. The soil is not soft at all...it is dry.

Does it make a difference heavier, wider and longer tractor with more hydraulic flow rate to get the job done faster?

I would love to get your suggestion on the right tractor to buy (please see my original question at the top of the thread).

Thank you very much

 

[Coyote machine]

IT can tell you, he uses a non-Kioti backhoe, a Woods I believe, and it has 1 foot deeper depth capability from what he stated above, than a Kioti subframe backhoe model #KB2485, which is what I have.

I would really listen to what you're being advised as to what size tractor will meet your needs. You can always go bigger, but ask yourself why? Why spend more money than you have to, and for negligible difference, if any in end results. You're not going to cut 2 weekends off your total time by getting the biggest Kioti you think might speed up the job. The hoe size is standardized across Kioti's lineup and the 2485 is the biggest available. Having a more powerful pump and tractor won't be translated into a quantifiable amount of time saved, IMHO, but there will definitely be a quantifiable amount of money spent to go biggest. You will feel that difference.

Curious about the no industrial use you mentioned. Is hiring a contractor, or having one work on a Saturday/Sunday for instance, prohibited where you live?

When people talk about aeration of previously compacted soil and creating a lawn where trees were previously, it doesn't seem like you need to do too much work to get the area prepped. I would hazard a guess that having the correct soil type might be more significant than most other considerations; for instance you might need to throw down some topsoil to prep for a lawn. I'm not a landscaper per se, more of a tree guy, so others can fill you in better on this topic.

And, one can talk theory about how many feet/minute you could dig a trench all day long, but your land will determine along with skillset of the operator how long it actually takes to do the job. Rocks, roots etc can seriously impede progress, especially if you seek a straight line result. Both IT and I worked with MIE, (Michigan Iron & Equipment) to design and 'perfect' a root ripper that fits our backhoes, for just the purpose of tearing out roots around stumps, to allow us to remove said stump. Tractor backhoes, and even mini-exs are not the best equipped to tear out stumps, BUT with the ripper tooth we had made by MIE we can easily maneuver around the stump and rip the roots which allows us to then get purchase on it to finish it off. It makes a world of difference when dealing with roots and stumps of most any size. I keep it mounted to my hoe along with MIE's, welded to my hoe's dipper stick hydraulically operated thumb. The combination of those two custom tools is invaluable to me. If you decide to check them out ask for Bob, the owner, and *tell him I sent you. *For no reason other than he knows who referred you there. They are good people, and are a Kioti dealer, so they know their stuff. In fact, why not ask Bob what he thinks would be the best machine for your tasks list....

Michigan Iron and Equipment Morrice, MI (855) 265-459

 

[trctorfan17]

You make excellent points, Coyote.

I truly appreciate the honest opinion you & IT are providing.

Funny, I asked similar questions to JD owners, about choosing between 3039R and 4044R. I got unanimous feedback to go with the 4044R over 3039R. They said more powerful and wider tractors with larger wheelbase are definitely better. To quote them:

"The 4 series is going to give you more power & more weight which both help with ground engaging work."
"Go with the 4044R. Bigger tractor, more power, better lifting power better all around tractor."

oh, and regarding the commercial equipment, it is just out of respect to neighbors...given that industrial equipment (like Deere 310J) are usually much louder than residential toys (like RX7320 or NX6010).

I honestly wanted to buy a Deere 110 TLB, truly industrial with 23 gpm...awesome tractor, you can get for around 26,000 with just 1,000 hours on it. And that one, you would get a real hydraulic pumping for the front post hole digger and true SSQA.

So now, I am looking to buy a modular barn to park the tractor...so may be i reconsider buying a used Deere 110 or 310J.

Do you think a barn size 30 deep, 20 wide, 10 feet high is big enough for tractor? I just can't park the tractor outside, my wife won't like it.

Any idea a fair price of such a small barn?

Thank you

 

[trctorfan17]

...and it is only Sunday that I don't use industrial equipment...Saturday, I make all the noise I can.

 

[Coyote machine]

You make excellent points, Coyote.

I truly appreciate the honest opinion you & IT are providing.

Funny, I asked similar questions to JD owners, about choosing between 3039R and 4044R. I got unanimous feedback to go with the 4044R over 3039R. They said more powerful and wider tractors with larger wheelbase are definitely better. To quote them:

"The 4 series is going to give you more power & more weight which both help with ground engaging work."
"Go with the 4044R. Bigger tractor, more power, better lifting power better all around tractor."

oh, and regarding the commercial equipment, it is just out of respect to neighbors...given that industrial equipment (like Deere 310J) are usually much louder than residential toys (like RX7320 or NX6010).

I honestly wanted to buy a Deere 110 TLB, truly industrial with 23 gpm...awesome tractor, you can get for around 26,000 with just 1,000 hours on it. And that one, you would get a real hydraulic pumping for the front post hole digger and true SSQA.

So now, I am looking to buy a modular barn to park the tractor...so may be i reconsider buying a used Deere 110 or 310J.

Do you think a barn size 30 deep, 20 wide, 10 feet high is big enough for tractor? I just can't park the tractor outside, my wife won't like it.

Any idea a fair price of such a small barn?

Thank you

You're welcome. Go with a Kioti of your HP choosing. You could of course get a bigger badder JD, but why, when you can get exactly what you want with a properly specked Kioti?
On the barn thing; if you've got to have one make sure you will have high enough door to allow tractor with ROPS or cab to move in/out with NO height issues. I can't move up to next bigger size tractor in my current barn because I only have a 8' plus door height. The shed I just built for implement storage, has 9' full opening in case I decide to go up to next size tractor. I built my shed 26' deep, IIRC, and it is adequate for my implements.

I'd say again, maybe slow down, decide one thing at a time, tractor first, barn second, etc.
And your 'Deere friends are likely saying one can get x amount of work done, and probably so, BUT you've never even driven a tractor before so your ability to maximize output is going to be limited no matter what you buy for quite some time, IMHO, unless you're a wiz kid at things you have no prior experience having done previously. But of course the choice to buy a particular brand and size is all yours. We're just not going to blow smoke at you about conquering the World in a day, no matter what you buy.
What if any experience do you have operating machinery of any type, just out of curiosity? You don't have to say, I'd just like to try to gauge how realistic you are being, based on your expectations.
Below is a link to a pic of the ripper tooth on a Kioti BH2485 with a mechanical thumb also shown on the dipper stick.
The ripper tooth is AWESOME!

miemachinerydivision

 

[cat fever]

The barn size you stated would be fine. But keep in mind, no matter how big you build you will always need more space.

 

[IslandTractor]

Trctorfan, I get the impression that you have done a lot of internet research but may have fallen prey to the "bigger is better" malarkey that permeates some TBN discussions. Keep in mind that what you really want is the RIGHT size tractor. A JD110 is a fine TLB but much bigger than needed for a do it yourself project of the size you have described. Honestly I could have done the project with a 20hp tlb in the time you've put into research. Not trying to knock your effort just pointing out that virtually any SCUT or CUT with even 4gpm hydraulic output is easily enough to do the work. To give you an analogy, you have a task equivalent to making a supply run to Costco. You seem focused on getting a F350 or F450 to haul supplies home that would easily fit in a minivan.

Even a Kubota BX25 could do the needed work pretty efficiently. Really. Hydraulics and diesel are amazingly efficient.

I think the biggest issue you have is whether the trucked in topsoil can be delivered in single truckloads close to where you need it. Moving a quarter yard 50 feet per trip is more efficient than moving a full yard 300 feet per trip.

I also think you've been over sold on the compaction/aeration thing. A couple of passes with a simple land rake will loosen all the topsoil you need for seeding grass even if trucks have compacted the soil.

 

[IslandTractor]

BTW, a ripper is indeed awesome but only if taking out small and medium trees or stumps is high on your to do list. Seems that some big equipment has already done that work so you just need a standard trenching bucket. 12" or 18" would be fine.

 

[trctorfan17]

You're welcome. Go with a Kioti of your HP choosing. You could of course get a bigger badder JD, but why, when you can get exactly what you want with a properly specked Kioti?
On the barn thing; if you've got to have one make sure you will have high enough door to allow tractor with ROPS or cab to move in/out with NO height issues. I can't move up to next bigger size tractor in my current barn because I only have a 8' plus door height. The shed I just built for implement storage, has 9' full opening in case I decide to go up to next size tractor. I built my shed 26' deep, IIRC, and it is adequate for my implements.

I'd say again, maybe slow down, decide one thing at a time, tractor first, barn second, etc.
And your 'Deere friends are likely saying one can get x amount of work done, and probably so, BUT you've never even driven a tractor before so your ability to maximize output is going to be limited no matter what you buy for quite some time, IMHO, unless you're a wiz kid at things you have no prior experience having done previously. But of course the choice to buy a particular brand and size is all yours. We're just not going to blow smoke at you about conquering the World in a day, no matter what you buy.
What if any experience do you have operating machinery of any type, just out of curiosity? You don't have to say, I'd just like to try to gauge how realistic you are being, based on your expectations.
Below is a link to a pic of the ripper tooth on a Kioti BH2485 with a mechanical thumb also shown on the dipper stick.
The ripper tooth is AWESOME!

miemachinerydivision

Thanks Coyote, I will definitely have a 9' high sliding door on barn. And, thank you for the ripper tooth idea, I love getting the most power toys to finish jobs in no time. I will get the ripper tooth.

I also like the idea of a cab, makes it much quieter...

I never operated any machinery before. That's why I am asking so many questions, but i learn fast.

You're right, one thing at a time, tractor first, then barn...I am not gonna bother test driving Kubota or JD.

 

[trctorfan17]

Trctorfan, I get the impression that you have done a lot of internet research but may have fallen prey to the "bigger is better" malarkey that permeates some TBN discussions. Keep in mind that what you really want is the RIGHT size tractor. A JD110 is a fine TLB but much bigger than needed for a do it yourself project of the size you have described. Honestly I could have done the project with a 20hp tlb in the time you've put into research. Not trying to knock your effort just pointing out that virtually any SCUT or CUT with even 4gpm hydraulic output is easily enough to do the work. To give you an analogy, you have a task equivalent to making a supply run to Costco. You seem focused on getting a F350 or F450 to haul supplies home that would easily fit in a minivan.

Even a Kubota BX25 could do the needed work pretty efficiently. Really. Hydraulics and diesel are amazingly efficient.

I think the biggest issue you have is whether the trucked in topsoil can be delivered in single truckloads close to where you need it. Moving a quarter yard 50 feet per trip is more efficient than moving a full yard 300 feet per trip.

I also think you've been over sold on the compaction/aeration thing. A couple of passes with a simple land rake will loosen all the topsoil you need for seeding grass even if trucks have compacted the soil.

Kubota BX25! That's like the joke JD 1025R...that's really kid's toy. So explain to me this: the digging force for backhoe is 2,036 (for 1025R) and 3,748 (for KB2485). That is almost twice the force, and when you add to that the weights of the tractors (2,000 lb vs 4,000 lb) and gpm (3.5 vs 10), how can you really convince me that there is no difference in time to complete the job? If the job you described earlier takes 6 hours with 1025R, I would expect to save some noticeable time with DX? Otherwise, it makes no sense from physics. True, the operator's skills are so important, but really how difficult is it to read the manual and start using the hydraulic levers...may be takes one hour to go up the learning curve...but then it is just a tedious task of left right front back.

I usually watch a youtube video on how to operate something, and then go for it.

For the FEL work, you're right...I can save time getting trucks to dump in different spots. But if I can make 200 trips (using 0.8 yard bucket) instead of 400 trips (using 0.4 yard bucket), then it may be worth getting the larger bucket. Especially if I am selling that in few years...then I get most of my money back. Also, I am paying cash...so no interest lost here.

And, you're right about the F350 F450 analogy. The thing is, I may be buying a larger property (10+ acres) soon and that may have its own tasks.

 

[trctorfan17]

The barn size you stated would be fine. But keep in mind, no matter how big you build you will always need more space.

Thank you Lynn. Yes, I agree...I have 3 car garage and all cars are parked outside...my garage is full of yard stuff.