Keeping water pipe thawed above ground

[newbury]

I've a set of "shops" in Mississippi that HAD running water until we had a major leak from the line coming off the county main. We were going through 1,000 gallons a day. The line to the house was critical and we had that replaced.

In the picture the water pipe from the main came up through the concrete in the main building, about 40' back from where I put the arrow on the right. That was before they added the shop on the far right. Both shops go back 60'. We suspect that they laid the line under the parking lot.

When they dug the new line for the house they didn't find where the old line ran, but that could have been where the leak was anyways. And it looked too costly to have the excavator dig a new trench and lay pipe to the main building when I only need to flush the toilet maybe once a week.

So as of now I carry buckets to flush the toilet.

I'd like to get running water back there again but not for a few thousand dollars.

However, I did get them to run a line so I have an outside faucet where the arrow is in the left.

For the "interim" I'm planning on running PEX from the faucet over the path where the red line is and back near where water originally came in, with the thought of being able to tie into the old plumbing. This should do fine, except for the few months where the temps dip below freezing. To combat that I was thinking of "bundling" the pex in 1" pipe insulation with a "roof deicing cable" or pipe heating cable.

Does this sound feasible?

Note - the pipes in the building never burst even though we have had some below freezing temps over the last few years.

 

[RNeumann]

Pex is not designed to be outside and in fact degrades with UV/Sun light. If you run a line outside and exposed at least use pipe rated for extended UV exposure. Sch 80 PVC or HDPE.
As far as freezing- they make heat tape that is only on when the temps drop. Put the tape under pipe insulation and hope you don't have a power outage long enough to cause damage.

Honestly is is an ill conceived idea. The right way is the best way- put the pipes in the ground.

 

[jcummins]

I've done it on a fifth wheeler traile r with water hose, heat tape, then foam insulation, wrapped all with duct tape. As said, if it's really code, hope the power doesn't go out.

 

[Deere Dude]

I am a pex fan and would run it inside the building and being Mississippi I would just blow the line out in the winter and not use it. But my favorite is copper and heat tape if really needed all winter.

No reason deicing cable wouldn't work that I can think of.

 

[square1]

The hot water loop at work has a small pump that constantly circulates water so there is no need to run the cold water out of the pipes. Moving water doesn't freeze. Maybe install a loop with thermostat pump on / off control. . Another option, maybe a better one, is make it easy to drain the line when not in use. It always makes me nervous when the power goes out at the cabin because i don't drain the pipes in winter.

 

[Stimw]

Rent a pavement saw and cut a narrow trench across the blacktop and patch it back.
I see narrow patches in blacktop all the time and you don't need it that deep.

 

[newbury]

Thanks for the quick responses

Pex is not designed to be outside and in fact degrades with UV/Sun light. If you run a line outside and exposed at least use pipe rated for extended UV exposure. Sch 80 PVC or HDPE.
As far as freezing- they make heat tape that is only on when the temps drop. Put the tape under pipe insulation and hope you don't have a power outage long enough to cause damage.

Honestly is is an ill conceived idea. The right way is the best way- put the pipes in the ground.

1. I said it was going to be wrapped in insulation.
2.

was thinking of "bundling" the pex in 1" pipe insulation with a "roof deicing cable" or pipe heating cable.

3. Very few power outages around here, it's going to be on a faucet.
4. Putting the pipe in the ground would require enough money for a new grapple from EA with all the trimmings, paths to get that done require major clearing of 40 yr old trees or digging up the parking lot at the best. And then it still must be run into the unheated building.

I've done it on a fifth wheeler traile r with water hose, heat tape, then foam insulation, wrapped all with duct tape. As said, if it's really code, hope the power doesn't go out.

Thanks, that is what I was thinking.

The hot water loop at work has a small pump that constantly circulates water so there is no need to run the cold water out of the pipes. Moving water doesn't freeze. Maybe install a loop with thermostat pump on / off control. . Another option, maybe a better one, is make it easy to drain the line when not in use. It always makes me nervous when the power goes out at the cabin because i don't drain the pipes in winter.

I've used the "dripping faucets don't freeze" principal since I was about 12 in northern Vermont. But I'm unsure of how much flow I might need in a line that long (80 to 100 feet) if the temps actually hit 0F, which is near the record low. I've also never run heat tape that far but did find a 100' roll on Amazon.
And I'm definitely going to make it easy to drain the line because we are often gone for months.

Since 2011 I've been down here every winter during the coldest periods. The lowest temps I've seen was one day it hit about 14 degrees overnight. However the days usually have crystal clear skies ad rapidly warm up. Last January Tupelo, Mississippi had an average temperature of 50.8 degrees.

So I think I'll plan on running the line w/ a heat line with both wrapped in insulation.

 

[oosik]

I've never been involved with using any type of heat tape on exposed water lines in an environment such as yours. I've had experience in a VERY brutal environment - Glenallen, AK - and it was a daily PITA. Our "temporary fix" simply pushed the permanent solution into the dead of winter and became one WHOLY NIGHTMARE. Steam thawing frozen ground to a depth of six feet - working in temps at -35F - working inside encloses spaces heated with diesel fired space heaters - working in an environment where liquid mud froze to solid rock within 15 minuets. OH, what a joyous situation!!!!

However - since you are not in those extremes of environment - you might just get away with your solution. I don't like your idea because it means you will have to constantly be checking to see if its leaking again. Better be certain that whatever you do WILL get you thru the cold wx and into the time when you will be able to affect a permanent solution.

 

[RNeumann]

The pipe insulation and pex aren't designed for outdoor use. The insulation will rot fairly quickly exposing the pex. But based on your responses to most of the suggestions I'm sure you knew that since you were 12 years old. Good luck on the project- sounds like you have it all figured out.

 

[s219]

You can sleeve PEX inside some other pipe/conduit to protect it from UV (I would not count on insulation for that, as that has its own issues with UV exposure). Be aware of wear issues that might arise from the PEX rubbing on the outer pipe/conduit as it cycles slowly under normal plumbing movement. I have put PEX inside black poly irrigation pipe, and am not too worried about that in my lifetime.

 

[newbury]

The pipe insulation and pex aren't designed for outdoor use. The insulation will rot fairly quickly exposing the pex. But based on your responses to most of the suggestions I'm sure you knew that since you were 12 years old. Good luck on the project- sounds like you have it all figured out.

I realize that both are not designed for outdoor use. However I've got one short section of copper pipe outside that someone put a section of pipe insulation over before we bought the place in 2011 and it's still holding up. We didn't have PEX or cheap foam pipe insulation when I was 12.

You can sleeve PEX inside some other pipe/conduit to protect it from UV (I would not count on insulation for that, as that has its own issues with UV exposure). Be aware of wear issues that might arise from the PEX rubbing on the outer pipe/conduit as it cycles slowly under normal plumbing movement. I have put PEX inside black poly irrigation pipe, and am not too worried about that in my lifetime.

I was originally thinking of running mostly inside the shops, I'm trying to gauge the tradeoffs between running it inside the shops (a little more labor, damage if it leaks) and putting it in pipe (cost and more installation time). It seems the least expensive outside solution would be to "bundle" the PEX, heat tape, insulation inside 4" corrugated drain pipe. I can get 100' for $66. And with the PEX and heat tape INSIDE the insulation I don't think it will be rubbing on much.

Based on my readings about PEX it should take the occasional freezings without bursting, the main problems seem to occur at joints. And I plan on minimizing joints.
If I put it inside perforated corrugated drain pipe I'll be easily able to spot a leak.

 

[Egon]

Get temperature activated heat tape, pipe insulation ( Comes formed) and add a metal cladding.

[video]https://www.amazon.ca/Easy-Heat-AHB-019-Weather-Heating/dp/B00002N6MB[/video]

 

[Deere Dude]

At work they used long heat tape that could be cut off at any length and ends put on. This worked for keeping gutters free from ice in Wisconsin. Some were pretty long, like 100', and didn't use much current.

 

[newbury]

Get temperature activated heat tape, pipe insulation ( Comes formed) and add a metal cladding.

[video]https://www.amazon.ca/Easy-Heat-AHB-019-Weather-Heating/dp/B00002N6MB[/video]

WOW, that stuff must be good. From the description:

Temperature-controlled cable runs straight along pipe and valves, held in place by application tape and plugs into grounded electrical outlet. Keeps water flowing down to -380.

That must be Farenheit Won't get that cold in Mississippi until ____ freezes over.

That's a lot better than any other brands I looked at.

At work they used long heat tape that could be cut off at any length and ends put on. This worked for keeping gutters free from ice in Wisconsin. Some were pretty long, like 100', and didn't use much current.

Being able to cut to any length is interesting - do you know the brand?

 

[aczlan]

Being able to cut to any length is interesting - do you know the brand?

Perhaps something like this?
Amazon.com: Easy Heat 212 1' Freeze Free Cable: Automotive

Aaron Z

 

[PILOON]

Perhaps something like this?
Amazon.com: Easy Heat 212 1' Freeze Free Cable: Automotive

Aaron Z

I have used this style on more than a few installations.
Works on the thermister principal, colder it is the more it conducts, generally every foot is an individual 'heat element' so that only those frozen 'feet' get heated.
There are more than just a few brands available and usually you'll find the products in stock in cottage country areas.
Some brands are designed for internal pipe installation (best) and others to be taped onto the water pipes in question.
The most efficient is internal, and wrapping with non absorbent foam as a method of retaining the heat where you want it, eg in the pipe and not heating the soil.
I have furthermore sometimes run the whole wrapped piping inside of rigid tubing for mechanical protection (like under a driveway).
Embedding the heated waterline in sand is also a good precaution as sand will drain away water as well as providing mechanical protection.
(frost and a small stone can nick or cut those buried pipes)

Those heated tracing lines by the nature of the design cost very little to operate since only the cold zones get heated.

The heat tapes that come in predetermined lengths with a simple sensor at one end are really not good for water lines since they only sense at one point and not where the cold spot is.
\They are good for eaves and down pipes that are completely surrounded by cold freezing air but not for underground lines that have varied insulation values.

 

[newbury]

Perhaps something like this?
Amazon.com: Easy Heat 212 1' Freeze Free Cable: Automotive

Aaron Z

Thanks, that looks like a winner for winter.

 

[Deere Dude]

Perhaps something like this?
Amazon.com: Easy Heat 212 1' Freeze Free Cable: Automotive

Aaron Z

I am sure its on the same page. I personally didn't use it but watched electricians use this stuff for eves in a Wisconsin factory roof to keep water flowing. It seems like some good stuff or they would not use it very long.

 

[BHD]

feed the line with a freeze proof hydrant and a vacuum breaker and shut it off when it going to freeze,

on the low spots one can put in a drain valve if you want, to drain out the line,

my guess is you would not get that many freezes a year.

 

[beowulf]

Perhaps it is not the most complete solution, and it does require some attention, but it is at least cheap - what I do for out lying bibs when the temp is going to drop to a bit below freezing for a few hours, is to leave those bibs open - just a bit. I only have to use this for a few bibs, as I have shut-offs for some lines, and it does not freeze here that often, it is very doable for me. So, if it is not going to freeze very often, and you will be around, this is an option. You can also put in a recirculation pump, and, or, use heat tape. I have heat tape at the well which has a thermostat of some sort that turns it on when the temp drops to a certain point.