Is There an Electrician Handy?

SandburRanch · Mar 5, 2011

I've been ask to research Written Pole Technology. The purpose of the research is to determine if a single phase electric motor could be purchased of sufficient size to power an irrigation pump so the costly expense of running 3 phase power to the location could be eliminated.

The motor suited for this application would be in the 10 and 17 HP range. If anyone has any first hand experience with this or any good links that has this information in plain English rather than engineer talk we would appreciate you sharing that with us.

I've googled Written Pole but that's mostly for engineers etc.

FastPauly · Mar 5, 2011

A quick check on Baldor's site list single phase motors up to 15 hp. Anything above 5 hp requires 220 volts.

Gate Lavallee · Mar 5, 2011

first off my friend to give you some help I need the distance from the source of power to the motor but off the top id say with that big a motor go with the highest voltage you can that you have on property and will cut down on wire size, starter size,conduit size and also less voltage drop which affects life of all the parts in the project.....Salut

groundcover · Mar 5, 2011

Go with a windmill !

mmurphy · Mar 5, 2011

A question I have to throw in is. Do you know then for sure if this is water horse power (WHP), or electrical horse power (EHP)? You have a range there, and I was just curious if you know the actual load you will be dealing with. I would say more then likely single phase would not be the choice, just taking a guess.

Bison · Mar 5, 2011

You prob better off with 3 phase,you can get a phase converter for around $2000 to get the third leg if all you got is 110.

grsthegreat · Mar 5, 2011

er.. im confused. single phase power CAN also be 220-240 volt, it doesnt have to be 110 volt.

3 phase just means that there are 3 power legs.

single phase 240 would have 2 power legs. all houses are wired in single phase 220-240 volt.

i install power to LOTS of 220 volt, 1 phase well pumps over the years. the question remains how deep, how large a motor you want, how many GPM do you expect to get

podagrower · Mar 5, 2011

10 HP pump on 240 single phase is 50 amps per the code book. If all you have is 240 single phase, your power company can make 240 3 phase delta out of it. Yes, it will cost a little bit of money. But a lot of time, the power company can do it cheaper because they will be billing you for it every month.

If you want to get creative, you could buy a variable frequency drive and feed it with single phase and get three phase output.

Pete Judd · Mar 7, 2011

Most of the people around here that don't have 3 phase on the road, run diesel gen sets to power large pumps, or sawmills. One friend was quoted 40,000 bucks to run the 3 ph in from the road, plus the cost per KWH is higher here for 3 ph. One even has an old semi truck that he takes out into the field drops the driveline and connects it up to the pump. Good Luck

dex3361 · Mar 7, 2011

To make usable 3 phase power you will need at least 2 primary lines in your area and the power company can set 2 transformers and configure them open delta. This will normally mean that you would have to upgrade your electrical service to 3 phase and have a higher tariff and a higher electrical rate. The simpler way would be to use a VFD (variable frequency drive) that can take single phase and run a 3 phase piece of equipment. Typically you have to up size the VFD 33%-50% to handle the 3 phase generation. So if you wanted to run a 10HP 3phase motor you would need a 15HP rated VFD. This how we usually install 3phase pump motors where there is only single phase available.

grsthegreat · Mar 7, 2011

dex3361 said:
To make usable 3 phase power you will need at least 2 primary lines in your area and the power company can set 2 transformers and configure them open delta. This will normally mean that you would have to upgrade your electrical service to 3 phase and have a higher tariff and a higher electrical rate. The simpler way would be to use a VFD (variable frequency drive) that can take single phase and run a 3 phase piece of equipment. Typically you have to up size the VFD 33%-50% to handle the 3 phase generation. So if you wanted to run a 10HP 3phase motor you would need a 15HP rated VFD. This how we usually install 3phase pump motors where there is only single phase available.

ive installed VFD drives (freq drives) to run alot of different 3 phase equipment on single phase power. they do work great, and not too expensive (relative to bringing in 3 phase power).

installer usually programs them after install. we also use these as soft start devises to help ease the motor into a full load, thus saving the water lines from endless water hammer effects.

dex3361 · Mar 7, 2011

grsthegreat said:
ive installed VFD drives (freq drives) to run alot of different 3 phase equipment on single phase power. they do work great, and not too expensive (relative to bringing in 3 phase power).

installer usually programs them after install. we also use these as soft start devises to help ease the motor into a full load, thus saving the water lines from endless water hammer effects.

Another seldom thought about benefit in using VFD is that you can start your motor with a smaller generator as the inrush current is not there. If you watch the amps rise on a motor while starting (using a VFD) it just spools up gradually. If configured correctly.

Maynard Reece Byrd · Mar 7, 2011

Power is generated at the power plant as three phase power. There are three sine waves 120 degrees apart. Three phase power is taken to all the substations, but then as the distribution lines take over the power company will run with as single or three phase as needed to service the customer. A single phase high voltage distribution line is the one you see running along the road with a single hot phase wire and a second neutral wire. A three phase line is going to have three phase wires, plus a neutral line. Sometimes a power company will need three phase power to a customer(s), but the power demand is small and they will just run two phase wires and a neutral and will use two transformers in what is called an open Y open Delta configuration to supply power to a three phase customer.

There was some discussion about 220 volt(such as a home would use for a clothes dryer or cookstove) having two hot legs. The two hot legs are in phase with each other, therefore this is just single phase 220 volt.

Three phase equipment comes in a variety of voltages, such as 220 volt, 460 volts. You may also see some 208 volt equipment.

TheGoose · Mar 7, 2011

Don't forget also that even though 3-phase may cost more the motor will run significantly more efficient and may off-set any additional cost over time.

Are you sure you can even get a single phase submersible motor that high HP? I do not think they make anything over 5-HP that is single phase.

TheGoose · Mar 7, 2011

I just checked. They make up to 15 HP in single phase configuration but it is a 6" motor. They make up to 5 HP in 4" submersible motor.

Or are you using a surface motor? Line-shaft turbine maybe?

Grayson Klassen · Mar 7, 2011

SandburRanch said:
I've been ask to research Written Pole Technology. The purpose of the research is to determine if a single phase electric motor could be purchased of sufficient size to power an irrigation pump so the costly expense of running 3 phase power to the location could be eliminated.

The motor suited for this application would be in the 10 and 17 HP range. If anyone has any first hand experience with this or any good links that has this information in plain English rather than engineer talk we would appreciate you sharing that with us.

I've googled Written Pole but that's mostly for engineers etc.

I'd go woth the Inverter Drive

Grayson Klassen · Mar 7, 2011

A 1P 15HP motor will not be the same frame size as a 3P it will be wayyyyy bigger and therefore probably not a good option.

Craig Clayton · Mar 8, 2011

I was making a similiar suggestion on another post about using VFD s for a load that was to be started from a generator. I am happy to see here that others can understand what these devices really do. In the other post the VFD just was not flying.

Craig Clayton

Transit · Mar 8, 2011

I will be installing a generator disconnect switch, the switch comes with an installation diagram that is somewhat illogical.

The first figure is the recommended method. What dose not makes sense is why is there a circuit breaker on both sides of the interconnecting cable linking the panels, both panels are side by side.

Fig 2 eliminates the cost of one 100 amp breaker and still gives protection and isolation.

Fig 3 is another way but allows 300 amps to be drawn from a 200 amp feed.

EddieWalker · Mar 8, 2011

Maynard Reece Byrd said:
Power is generated at the power plant as three phase power. There are three sine waves 120 degrees apart. Three phase power is taken to all the substations, but then as the distribution lines take over the power company will run with as single or three phase as needed to service the customer. A single phase high voltage distribution line is the one you see running along the road with a single hot phase wire and a second neutral wire. A three phase line is going to have three phase wires, plus a neutral line. Sometimes a power company will need three phase power to a customer(s), but the power demand is small and they will just run two phase wires and a neutral and will use two transformers in what is called an open Y open Delta configuration to supply power to a three phase customer.

There was some discussion about 220 volt(such as a home would use for a clothes dryer or cookstove) having two hot legs. The two hot legs are in phase with each other, therefore this is just single phase 220 volt.

Three phase equipment comes in a variety of voltages, such as 220 volt, 460 volts. You may also see some 208 volt equipment.

Thank you for this. I'm familiar with some aspects of 3 phase power, but never understood what it was, or why it wasn't available without the high expense of running the additional lines to my property.

For my application, I'll be buying an inverter to power my pumps. It's the most cost effective method for my needs.

Eddie